Told to move from unmarked reserved seat...

[Greybeard33]

I have not seen the reservation system at its best this Easter. Following the incident I described in post #18, today there was a malfunction of the electronic reservation displays on the 1508 Edinburgh to Plymouth XC service (crowded 5-car Voyager) such that all seats were displayed as Available. The train manager resolved the resultant conflicts by turfing the incumbent reservationless passengers out of their seats and telling them to move to the unreserved carriage.

Then the 1755 York to Manchester Airport TPE service (6-car 185, especially busy because of the WCML engineering works) was reduced to 3-car because of a unit failure before departure. Although reservation cards were placed in the remaining carriages, the scrummage once the doors were opened meant that many passengers with reservations were unable to make their way through the crush to their allocated seats. I had to stand from York to Leeds despite holding a valid reservation. Likewise, many people who held reservations from Leeds had to stand to Huddersfield. The train manager advised us over the PA to apply for compensation.

 

[shredder1]

I traveled on a train into Manchester Piccadilly a while back.

I boarded at station A with a flexible standard class day ticket with no reservation. At the time of boarding, the train was not busy and I had the pick of the seats. So I sat in one.

A bit later, the train arrived at station B. This was now in the commuter rush and many people boarded the train, making it standing room only. A woman traveling with her partner approached me and the guy sitting next to me and said 'You're sitting in our seats...'. I checked the seat back. There were no reservation cards displayed. I informed them of this.

They insisted, showing the reservation coupons which showed they had indeed reserved the seats. The guy sitting next to me got up to make way. What other choice did I have? Any reasonable person would say that they are entitled to the seats they reserved. Indeed, I'd expect nothing less if the situation were reversed.

So I stood in the packed train carriage for the remainder of the journey to Piccadilly. I wrote to the train operator who said 'Sorry, the train was late arriving, so we didn't put the reservation cards in. In any case, your ticket doesn't entitle you to a seat reservation, so no compensation'

I think that I am entitled to compensation - after all, it's their actions that resulted in me being without a seat - if they had had their reservation cards in place I could have chosen a seat that was free for my entire journey.

Opinions on this?

Its happened to me twice now and on both occasions I`ve refused to move and explained that I`d taken the seat in good faith when I boarded the train and that their argument was with the train company and not me. On both occasions these have been people at least 30 years younger than me, I`ve spend most of my life giving my seats up to women, and the elderly, I sometimes wonder why I`ve bothered.

 

[Antman]

Actually, if they are unable to get *any* seat they are on most TOCs entitled to a partial fare refund as well.

If they are unable to get any seat, would an alternative be to get off the train and wait for one where they could get a seat, claiming Delay Repay for that period.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If they are unable to get any seat, would an alternative be to get off the train and wait for one where they could get a seat, claiming Delay Repay for that period.

No, as a seat is not guaranteed. Only if physically unable to board is this a valid course of action.

 

[Antman]

No, as a seat is not guaranteed.

The seat would have been guaranteed if the train company had held up their end of the bargain by actually putting out the seat reservations.

 

[najaB]

The seat would have been guaranteed if the train company had held up their end of the bargain by actually putting out the seat reservations.

Even if reservation cards are put out, there is no guarantee that the seat won't be taken by someone who refuses (or is unable) to move.

 

[Antman]

Even if reservation cards are put out, there is no guarantee that the seat won't be taken by someone who refuses (or is unable) to move.

The expectation of the customer would be that the railway staff would use the byelaws at their disposal to make the seat available. If the rail staff chose not to, again that is the fault of the train company.

The point is the customer is being accommodating dealing with the train company's failure (either putting out the vouchers or failing to ensure the byelaws are obeyed) to provide what they were sold, i.e. a reserved seat.

 

[najaB]

The expectation of the customer would be that the railway staff would use the byelaws at their disposal to make the seat available.

Rail staff cannot make someone move.

 

[Antman]

Rail staff cannot make someone move.

Of course they can. They use the byelaws and their ability to call the BTP to deal with a passenger who is refusing to obey their instruction.

 

[furlong]

Rail staff cannot make someone move.

Some can in law:

19. Classes of accommodation, reserved seats and sleeping berths
Except with permission from an authorised person, no person shall remain in any seat, berth or any part of a train where a notice indicates that it is reserved for a specified ticket holder or holders of tickets of a specific class, except the holder of a valid ticket entitling him to be in that particular place.
...
24 (2) Removal of persons
(ii) Any person who is reasonably believed by an authorised person to be in breach of any of these Byelaws and who fails to desist or leave when asked to do so by an authorised person may be removed from the railway by an authorised person using reasonable force. This right of removal is in addition to the imposition of any penalty for the breach of these Byelaws.

 

[Darandio]

Of course they can. They use the byelaws and their ability to call the BTP to deal with a passenger who is refusing to obey their instruction.

You seriously think they would call the BTP in order to remove someone from a seat? Given the possible delays and therefore the financial penalties accrued by doing this?

Come on now.

 

[najaB]

Some can in law...

They can, subject to that tricky word 'reasonable'. If someone bluntly refuses to move then in practice there's nothing the staff member can do other than call for BTP assistance.

 

[Antman]

You seriously think they would call the BTP in order to remove someone from a seat? Given the possible delays and therefore the financial penalties accrued by doing this?

Come on now.

Of course I don't think they would, but that doesn't mean they "cannot make someone move".

As you say, they would take a commercial decision about what is financially viable.

But because they have made that choice not to do something they should, and which the law supports they should do, means the customer who paid for a reserved seat should not lose out.

The customer bought a reserved seat because they wanted to get from A to B sitting down. So if the train company doesn't want to hold to its part of the bargain, is it that unreasonable for the customer to offer to catch a later train, and the train company pay the Delay Repay which is far less than the amount they could have lost.

 

[najaB]

The customer bought a reserved seat because they wanted to get from A to B sitting down.

Nobody bought anything. The passenger paid the fare to travel between A and B, and received or requested a complimentary seat reservation.

If they *choose* to travel on a later train then that's their pergorative but they aren't entitled to delay repay.

They would be entitled to a payment under any 'seat guarantee' compensation scheme n operation, or the TOC might choose to make a goodwill gesture - but as long as they were physically able to board they shouldn't get delay repay.

 

[philthetube]

No, as a seat is not guaranteed. Only if physically unable to board is this a valid course of action.

There are plenty of people about who would be physically unable to travel without a seat, making them effectively physically unable to board, what happens there?

 

[najaB]

There are plenty of people about who would be physically unable to travel without a seat, making them effectively physically unable to board, what happens there?

As I see it, they would be entitled to Delay Repay.

 

[bb21]

There are plenty of people about who would be physically unable to travel without a seat, making them effectively physically unable to board, what happens there?

Speak to station staff, or the Help Point, or board the service and ask people to move.

If none possible, then travel on the next service and complain to the TOC afterwards.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As I see it, they would be entitled to Delay Repay.

I don't. The situation reverts to that of there being no reservations, i.e. they approach someone in a Priority Seat who then has to move for them. If assistance has been booked, a member of staff will do that for them.

 

[najaB]

I don't. The situation reverts to that of there being no reservations, i.e. they approach someone in a Priority Seat who then has to move for them. If assistance has been booked, a member of staff will do that for them.

I'm considering the situation where it wasn't possible to for them to get a seat - e.g. the train was full and standing and they were travelling from an unstaffed station or that they are able to board a train unassisted but cannot stand for an extended period (e.g. they have a broken leg).

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm considering the situation where it wasn't possible to for them to get a seat - e.g. the train was full and standing and they were travelling from an unstaffed station or that they are able to board a train unassisted but cannot stand for an extended period (e.g. they have a broken leg).

It is unlikely that nobody would give up a seat on an entire train, particularly for a really obvious case like a broken leg. Traincrew could assist if necessary (unless we're getting even more contrived and assuming the train is DOO )

 

[35B]

Nobody bought anything. The passenger paid the fare to travel between A and B, and received or requested a complimentary seat reservation.

If they *choose* to travel on a later train then that's their pergorative but they aren't entitled to delay repay.

They would be entitled to a payment under any 'seat guarantee' compensation scheme n operation, or the TOC might choose to make a goodwill gesture - but as long as they were physically able to board they shouldn't get delay repay.

Debatable. If I book to travel, and obtain a reservation at the point of booking, I consider that reservation part of my contract, to the extent that if I've chosen a seat, it is the specific seat that is part of that contract. If the train operator chooses to breach that contract by not putting out reservations, then in some circumstance I would consider waiting for a later train and then claiming a delay refund a reasonable and proportionate remedy for that breach.


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[Bletchleyite]

Debatable. If I book to travel, and obtain a reservation at the point of booking, I consider that reservation part of my contract, to the extent that if I've chosen a seat, it is the specific seat that is part of that contract. If the train operator chooses to breach that contract by not putting out reservations, then in some circumstance I would consider waiting for a later train and then claiming a delay refund a reasonable and proportionate remedy for that breach.

Would love to see you try that in Court as you'd lose. Part of the contract relates to non-delivery, and Delay Repay is not an option.

 

[najaB]

It is unlikely that nobody would give up a seat on an entire train, particularly for a really obvious case like a broken leg. Traincrew could assist if necessary (unless we're getting even more contrived and assuming the train is DOO )

Yeah, I agree it's unlikely but I'm considering a 'worst case' situation in which they night be entitled to Delay Repay.

 

[najaB]

If the train operator chooses to breach that contract by not putting out reservations, then in some circumstance I would consider waiting for a later train and then claiming a delay refund a reasonable and proportionate remedy for that breach.

You might be entitled to compensation (though I personally don't think you would be) but Delay Repay would not be applicable since you *chose* to be delayed.

 

[Antman]

Nobody bought anything. The passenger paid the fare to travel between A and B, and received or requested a complimentary seat reservation.

You are separating the seat reservation from the ticket and treating them as two individual things. They aren't, and even say so on the bits of cardboard.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You are separating the seat reservation from the ticket and treating them as two individual things. They aren't, and even say so on the bits of cardboard.

They most definitely are in the case of walk-up tickets.

In the case of an Advance your ticket would not even be valid on the next train, though discretion might be shown if you ask nicely and explain why.

 

[Antman]

In the case of an Advance your ticket would not even be valid on the next train, though discretion might be shown if you ask nicely and explain why.

Even though the train company hasn't held up its end of the bargain when the ticket was purchased?

 

[najaB]

Even though the train company hasn't held up its end of the bargain when the ticket was purchased?

They provided a train - you chose not to board.

 

[najaB]

You are separating the seat reservation from the ticket and treating them as two individual things. They aren't, and even say so on the bits of cardboard.

In the case of walk-up fares the reservation is most definitely separate from the ticket - the latter is perfectly valid without the former.

 

[Antman]

They provided a train - you chose not to board.

And they sold a seat on a train which they then chose for commercial reasons not to provide.

Seems rather a one sided deal.