Scottish Domestic Ferries discussion

[GrimShady]

"I think you'll see Northlink back in the hands of CalMac next year. CalMac is a good company due to the dedicated people it has working for it and the funding level it enjoys not because of any political parties input."

Why?
Calmac is a brand owned by Scottish Government.
The vessels and ports are owned by CMAL, not the operator.
The Government determines the fares, routes and services to be delivered.
Investment in vessels and ports are funded by Scottish Government subject to what cash they have available. The operator makes a stonking operating loss on delivering the service so it can't possibly invest in anything directly unless its funded or part funded by Scottish Government. This would be true whoever the operator was.

Whoever operates it, the same staff will deliver the same services, on the same routes and charging the same tariffs to customers.

It's a management contract pure and simple, no matter how it looks.

Scottish Government's first priority should be specifying a service level that meets the needs of the island customers, passengers and freight and tourists.
Its next priority should be that the service is operated transparently with excellent governance and high safety levels.
Its third priority should be that it is getting the best value for money for the vast investment of taxpayers money the service sucks up.

Who the actual company is that manages the contract is utterly irrelevant. If it's Calmac, fine. If its Serco, fine. If it's Stena / P&O / DFDS / Western Ferries / whoever else chooses to bid for the contract, fine. It is for the Government to set a good specification and properly evaluate its options to determine the best choice.

There is no logic whatsoever that just because a company is publicly owned it will be more competent, efficient or provide better value for money. In many sectors, quite the opposite has been proven time and time again.

What is apparant is that if the operator is publicly owned, political expediency gets in the way. How can a Transport Minister really criticise or take to task a company he ultimately owns and controls? How can the company he ultimately owns and controls stand up to unreasonably demands from unions when there is always the next election to think about?
Its easier to keep things quiet and keep coughing up the cash in ever larger amounts.

Is this any way to run a country or use taxpayers money responsibly?

Northlink will have to go back to CalMac. Theres a certain someone who wants to be Prime Minister fro Scotland rememeber, mark my words! Then we'll see who open this who process really is.

You've just outlined why a private operator would never work, because it isn't a profitable business. As I've said before the priority is to run a high quality/safety service not the endless seeking of profit which is all the private operator will bring. What is it with the obsession wee have in UK over private companies like Serco who have ruined the Northlink Service?

Maybe the lesson here is that the Minister should be taking responsibility not not hiding behind the bluff of private enterprise.

You'll find services like this are run my Public companies all over the world. This is not something new, its the responsible way of of running a nations infrastructure. Also worth noting is that all the big European nations have state funded national rail companies. DB, SNCF, NS, RENFEE, Iarnród Éireann etc. There are equal number of state owned shipping companies, some of which I have outlined in previous posts.

It would seem actually that this is a good way to run a nations infrastructure.

 

[link1driver]

"I think you'll see Northlink back in the hands of CalMac next year. CalMac is a good company due to the dedicated people it has working for it and the funding level it enjoys not because of any political parties input."

Why?
Calmac is a brand owned by Scottish Government.
The vessels and ports are owned by CMAL, not the operator.
The Government determines the fares, routes and services to be delivered.
Investment in vessels and ports are funded by Scottish Government subject to what cash they have available. The operator makes a stonking operating loss on delivering the service so it can't possibly invest in anything directly unless its funded or part funded by Scottish Government. This would be true whoever the operator was.

Whoever operates it, the same staff will deliver the same services, on the same routes and charging the same tariffs to customers.

It's a management contract pure and simple, no matter how it looks.

Scottish Government's first priority should be specifying a service level that meets the needs of the island customers, passengers and freight and tourists.
Its next priority should be that the service is operated transparently with excellent governance and high safety levels.
Its third priority should be that it is getting the best value for money for the vast investment of taxpayers money the service sucks up.

Who the actual company is that manages the contract is utterly irrelevant. If it's Calmac, fine. If its Serco, fine. If it's Stena / P&O / DFDS / Western Ferries / whoever else chooses to bid for the contract, fine. It is for the Government to set a good specification and properly evaluate its options to determine the best choice.

There is no logic whatsoever that just because a company is publicly owned it will be more competent, efficient or provide better value for money. In many sectors, quite the opposite has been proven time and time again.

What is apparant is that if the operator is publicly owned, political expediency gets in the way. How can a Transport Minister really criticise or take to task a company he ultimately owns and controls? How can the company he ultimately owns and controls stand up to unreasonably demands from unions when there is always the next election to think about?
Its easier to keep things quiet and keep coughing up the cash in ever larger amounts.

Is this any way to run a country or use taxpayers money responsibly?

You are correct fishplate in what you say, but unfortunately with the demise of David Macbrayne and the Caledonian Steam Packet, a nationalised operator is what we've got, would Serco run down to Colonsay in a force 6 to deliver food stuffs and mail, with no pax or commercials on the car deck? No is the answer to that! No profit in it, they would simply cancel, save fuel and blame adverse weather conditions, that is what is meant by truly lifeline service!

It is the know how from the crews that makes most of these sailings possible. I know for a fact that a lot of the boys would have up sticks and went to other mobs had Serco won, that says it all about the T & C there!

 

[GrimShady]

Makes you laugh, remember directly operated railways (East Coast)? Delivered record profits and savings to the tax payer! What was the answer? Private operator!

Caledonian Macbrayne is an iconic operation, steeped in history, and proud to employ crews from islands. It would simply be wrong not to protect institutions like them. Also CalMac can and will tender for work elsewhere, remember they were narrowly beaten for a contract from Sweden using the Isle of Lewis.

As for the fleet, they are old well maintained and loved by their crews, nothing wrong with a bit of pride in your vessel, speaking as an ex 4th Engineer, on old tubs like Glen Sannox, Columba, Pioneer and the Claymore, not as fancy as today's ships, but fit for the era they served. The safe mannng certificate, regardless of PC dictates a vessels manning, only way to cut down crew is remove catering staff, which is fine on a tanker, not so a ro ro, where catering ratings have duties as regarding muster stations.

Lastly I was proud to have been there, I transferred out when Columba left the fleet, went deep sea for a bit, and came back to Hebridean Princess before BR, wish folk would just let them get on with the job they have been doing for 44 years now!

Well said!

Its worth noting Isle of Mull & Isle of Lewis plus some others in the fleet drop the PC figure for the winter. Like linkdriver says this is only catering staff that are reduced as the core crew are required to sail the ship. This has to be agreed with the company/Flag & port state/Lloyds etc before put into place. The muster list must also reflect these changes, not as simple as a few crew getting off!

Nice to meet another like minded individual.

 

[link1driver]

Well said!

Its worth noting Isle of Mull & Isle of Lewis plus some others in the fleet drop the PC figure for the winter. Like linkdriver says this is only catering staff that are reduced as the core crew are required to sail the ship. This has to be agreed with the company/Flag & port state/Lloyds etc before put into place. The muster list must also reflect these changes, not as simple as a few crew getting off!

Nice to meet another like minded individual.

The lord owns the world and all it contains, apart from the Western Islands, they belong to Macbrayne's

Sums it all up perfectly GrimShady!

Incidentally did the summer timetable 1988 on the new Isle of Mull!! Under Captain's Billiemore and Ferguson. Yes that gives an example of just how old some of these vessels really are. Still looking at her, the Mull and her little half sister Loti still look smart today.

 

[GrimShady]

IOM will be retiring we think in the next few years! LOTI won't be far behind her with engine issues!

 

[link1driver]

IOM will be retiring we think in the next few years! LOTI won't be far behind her with engine issues!

I think Loti's problems are thinning steel, although her Mirrlees engines have been worked especially hard over the years, I'm sure her port engine is actually one that was earmarked for Caledonian Isles when she was building.

 

[GrimShady]

I think Loti's problems are thinning steel, although her Mirrlees engines have been worked especially hard over the years, I'm sure her port engine is actually one that was earmarked for Caledonian Isles when she was building.

Yeah there are issues with the hull. Its a class issue really, will it be worth chopping out steel for her age though?

 

[Highland37]

When members of CalMac approached her office during the Northlink tender they were told that due to the fact the were employed by David MacBrayne Crewing which is a subsidiary company based in Guernsey, they were not regarded as British workers by her party and would not receive any help from the SNP. CalMac was split into various compaines to comply with the dreaded EU legislation which government forced upon them instead of twlling Brussels to gon and do one.

They (SNP) seem to have had a massive change of heart recently after their failure to convince the people vote for independence. Now they can't seem do enough enough, very strange! I think you'll see Northlink back in the hands of CalMac next year. CalMac is a good company due to the dedicated people it has working for it and the funding level it enjoys not because of any political parties input.

There are quite a few factual inaccuracies in your post and also misunderstandings.

It is a political matter to decide how much funding Calmac gets. The increase in funding was awarded by the SNP Government.

Note I am using "Government" and not "party" as you are confused between what the position of a party is, subject to its members, and the actions of a government formed by the elected representatives of that party.

No one in Calmac decides how much public money the company gets. That is a political decision by which I mean a decision taken by politicians.

 

[Fishplate84]

This is Scotland's pride and joy, its national carrier, its tourism darling, its state owned empire.
Managed so well that here we are ruminating on whether a few more years can be eeked out of engines and thinning steelwork on something as critical as a hull.

If it was a well managed operation for the long term these vessels would have gone to the scrapper a long time ago. No commercial ferry company outside of the third world keeps its vessels for so long because they become so expensive to keep running. £b's in subsidy has been paid by the taxpayer over the last 30 or more years and yet there has been nothing more than stagnation over the time. So much being spent on maintaining the status quo that there's nothing left in the pot to reinvest and innovate properly.

The irony being that all around Scotland, private operators have been established on discrete routes and are generally providing better services, competitively priced and at zero cost to the taxpayer.
Beyond the brand, Calmac is a dinosaur kept alive by an intransigent public sector interest in nothing more than keeping below the radar and paying whatever it takes to keep the unions on side.

 

[InOban]

Apart from Pentland Ferries, which is cherry picking by ignoring most of the foot traffic and the lifeline service obligation, what other private operators are there?

By the way, I don't think it is as efficiently run as it should be. It is the Highland equivalent of the NHS: a sacred cow which it is political suicide to criticize.

And I have a neighbour who is a CALMAC engineer. Many of the boats were fitted with engines whose design was out of date when they were built.

 

[link1driver]

This is Scotland's pride and joy, its national carrier, its tourism darling, its state owned empire.
Managed so well that here we are ruminating on whether a few more years can be eeked out of engines and thinning steelwork on something as critical as a hull.

If it was a well managed operation for the long term these vessels would have gone to the scrapper a long time ago. No commercial ferry company outside of the third world keeps its vessels for so long because they become so expensive to keep running. £b's in subsidy has been paid by the taxpayer over the last 30 or more years and yet there has been nothing more than stagnation over the time. So much being spent on maintaining the status quo that there's nothing left in the pot to reinvest and innovate properly.

The irony being that all around Scotland, private operators have been established on discrete routes and are generally providing better services, competitively priced and at zero cost to the taxpayer.
Beyond the brand, Calmac is a dinosaur kept alive by an intransigent public sector interest in nothing more than keeping below the radar and paying whatever it takes to keep the unions on side.

Go check the age of Stena Europe and Stena Danica, even older than Isle of Arran! Makes your second paragraph nonsense. Stena RoRo are planning to spend big on upgrades to Europe, rather than replace her with the much younger and thirstier Stena Nordica. It clearly makes commercial sence to them!

It seems that private is always better in some people's thinking, would Western fare better had Juno and Jupiter been allowed to keep a half hourly Gourock-Dunoon? They failed badly on the Islay run in the 70's! Peatland don't have a back up option, if Pentalina goes tech or for survey sailings are cancelled, guess what? North link pick her traffic up. CalMac are obliged to have alternatives, that is why they were given their contract to provide truly lifeline services. Would Serco do that? Answer is clearly not, that's why they lost out! For goodness sake let's enjoy the older vessels while we can, they remind us of a different age, back to our youths when the world seemed a little less manic, and sheep were carried loose on the car deck!!

 

[link1driver]

Apart from Pentland Ferries, which is cherry picking by ignoring most of the foot traffic and the lifeline service obligation, what other private operators are there?

By the way, I don't think it is as efficiently run as it should be. It is the Highland equivalent of the NHS: a sacred cow which it is political suicide to criticize.

And I have a neighbour who is a CALMAC engineer. Many of the boats were fitted with engines whose design was out of date when they were built.

Mirrlees 8mb out of date? Maybe the super k, granted, most are now using MAN or Sulzer.

 

[link1driver]

Yeah there are issues with the hull. Its a class issue really, will it be worth chopping out steel for her age though?

She was at Troon recently for some steel renewal work that was identified in her last survey, she seems ok now. Once the eco props were replaced with her old ones she was able to manoeuvre as before.

 

[GrimShady]

If it was a well managed operation for the long term these vessels would have gone to the scrapper a long time ago. No commercial ferry company outside of the third world keeps its vessels for so long because they become so expensive to keep running. £b's in subsidy has been paid by the taxpayer over the last 30 or more years and yet there has been nothing more than stagnation over the time. So much being spent on maintaining the status quo that there's nothing left in the pot to reinvest and innovate properly.

The irony being that all around Scotland, private operators have been established on discrete routes and are generally providing better services, competitively priced and at zero cost to the taxpayer.
Beyond the brand, Calmac is a dinosaur kept alive by an intransigent public sector interest in nothing more than keeping below the radar and paying whatever it takes to keep the unions on side.

I'm sorry Fishplate but you a very, very wrong in saying this. Its because its well run that these older vessels are such good condition and still in daily service. I invite you to go a have a look at the age of most private operators fleets. You'll be in for a very big surprise! Most of these private ships are a disgrace with regard to the condition of the vessel machinery and fittings. Try to remember as a passenger all you see is what the company wants you to see. I know of a good few new builds with serious fatigue issues in the hull or vibration issues causing parts to fall off! Having to renew steel work on a 25 year old vessel is nothing new, it happens all the time. I could easily make a list of all RoPax vessels i know of 20-30 years in age in private hands if you wish?

Can I ask where this return to profit will come from if in private hands? Any money CalMac makes goes back into CalMac and not the share holders. You'll be paying more in subsidy to maintain the level of service we have as profit is diverted away. Yet again CalMac is not unique amount life life operators, others country do it to.

I'm also puzzled by what you call stagnation? The new build program is second to none. Practically every year a new vessel joins the fleet.

I'm guessing you don't work for a shipping line or a member of the Merchant Navy?

 

[GrimShady]

Apart from Pentland Ferries, which is cherry picking by ignoring most of the foot traffic and the lifeline service obligation, what other private operators are there?

And I have a neighbour who is a CALMAC engineer. Many of the boats were fitted with engines whose design was out of date when they were built.

Vships & Serco were interested in the Tender. Vships put in for anything and never get anywhere, Serco...well certain people in power were all for it however Serco were so smug and over confident they didn't even bother to show up to the many tender meetings they were supposed to!

Technological development happens very quickly even in the maritime industry. A ship today will be outdated in 5 years in most respects. There is also a huge lead time on new engines...years in some cases. Not always easy to get the plant you need in time for the hull finishing!

I'm sure if you ask your neighbor he'll be very supportive of CalMac in comparison to other ferry companies, most of which are a joke.

 

[Blindtraveler]

So if the older fleat are overdue a date with the razer blade factory are the new generation, the likes of the Loch Seaforth, Argyle etc built to last or they enormous competetive tendering mistakes that in a few years will go wrong/break down/sink/need eleventy billion quid spent on tiny little bits or softwear bugs and therefor cause problems?

Also it was said upthread that the current Northlink fleat might be kept going til they are 30. Given they are rubbish in the winter storms and at the very least will need substantial refurbishment during the next contract would it be better to replace them sooner so that the current ones have some value to an opperater who runs services in flat calm and with a lower demand for cabbins?

 

[GrimShady]

There are quite a few factual inaccuracies in your post and also misunderstandings.

It is a political matter to decide how much funding Calmac gets. The increase in funding was awarded by the SNP Government.

Note I am using "Government" and not "party" as you are confused between what the position of a party is, subject to its members, and the actions of a government formed by the elected representatives of that party.

No one in Calmac decides how much public money the company gets. That is a political decision by which I mean a decision taken by politicians.

You're misunderstanding me. I don't believe I stated that CalMac was in control of its funding level. It is as you say a political decision but so also is the awarding of the tenders. There is politics at play here in a big way, I'm merely pointing out that most of this 'open tender' carry on is nonsense and that the powers that be at the time have a massive influence on whom it is awarded to.

 

[GrimShady]

So if the older fleat are overdue a date with the razer blade factory are the new generation, the likes of the Loch Seaforth, Argyle etc built to last or they enormous competetive tendering mistakes that in a few years will go wrong/break down/sink/need eleventy billion quid spent on tiny little bits or softwear bugs and therefor cause problems?

Also it was said upthread that the current Northlink fleat might be kept going til they are 30. Given they are rubbish in the winter storms and at the very least will need substantial refurbishment during the next contract would it be better to replace them sooner so that the current ones have some value to an opperater who runs services in flat calm and with a lower demand for cabbins?

25-30 is the normal life expectancy of a RoPax vessel. As the ship gets older she naturally becomes more expensive to run and maintain. Inspections /audits and surveys also increase, this is the natural life of a ship. Approaching 30 and still in daily use is good for a ferry.

Another issue with shipping is that unlike trains, aircraft & land vehicles ships are very unique, even some sister ships are built differently. Each new generation or design has bugs of its own which take time to work out. Materials change widely as does the quality or workmanship. One issue with tendering is that one shipyards practices may not be as good as the next so you could have a wide variety is the quality of new ships. Loch Seaforth was built by a German yard with a good reputation for quality, Bute & Argyle were built by a Polish yard which isn't as widely respected, only time will tell to be honest.

 

[InOban]

Vships & Serco were interested in the Tender. Vships put in for anything and never get anywhere, Serco...well certain people in power were all for it however Serco were so smug and over confident they didn't even bother to show up to the many tender meetings they were supposed to!

Technological development happens very quickly even in the maritime industry. A ship today will be outdated in 5 years in most respects. There is also a huge lead time on new engines...years in some cases. Not always easy to get the plant you need in time for the hull finishing!

I'm sure if you ask your neighbor he'll be very supportive of CalMac in comparison to other ferry companies, most of which are a joke.

BTW, what is the PC of the isle of mull in the winter? And what is the size of its winter crew?
And for all of you with nostalgia for the old boats, my first Macbraynes trip was on the Lochinvar. I must have been about 11, and we had travelled from Edinburgh Princes St. via Calendar.

 

[GrimShady]

BTW, what is the PC of the isle of mull in the winter? And what is the size of its winter crew?
And for all of you with nostalgia for the old boats, my first Macbraynes trip was on the Lochinvar. I must have been about 11, and we had travelled from Edinburgh Princes St. via Calendar.

She goes from 962 to either 500 r 450. I shall have to ask my contacts on IOM for exact figure for crew and pax.

Edinburgh Princes St? I wish I could have seen it while it was still around and the Callandar to Oban line. The station would be heaving these days plus Callandar would be hooching in the summer.

Another sadly missed opportunity. :cry:

 

[InOban]

450 is still twice as many as it needs for six months of the year.

One of the extra costs in both building and running the larger ferries is that they all provide on-board crew accommodation. Even the Coruisk. I'll bet Pentland doesn't.

 

[kylemore]

It seems that private is always better in some people's thinking, would Western fare better had Juno and Jupiter been allowed to keep a half hourly Gourock-Dunoon? They failed badly on the Islay run in the 70's! QUOTE]

Western were wiping the floor with Calmac even when they were half hourly.

Western provided vastly improved frequencies, greatly extended operating hours and low fares based on the low cost "Scandinavian" model. They won because the punters voted with their wheels!

And as for them failing on the Islay run in the 70s the opposite is true - they were showing up the hidebound management of MacBraynes big style with the "Sound of Gigha" running an efficient modern ferry service while MacBraynes were basically still trying to run a Mail Steamer service that happened to convey cars.

They were effectively sabotaged by an unholy alliance of MacBraynes and the Scottish Office - ironically a Tory Scottish Office!

 

[GrimShady]

That is a distinct possibility but there is a saving there.

The issue is with the crew accommodation is that they either live onboard or ashore. With shore accommodation you instantly reduce the vessels range and lose the go anywhere availability not to mention the crew need to eat. The other option is local crewing which cuts out on the requirement for accommodation but still reduces caries the same penalties as above. Another issue with local crewing is that there just isnt that many local qualified people around. Even a steward cant board as a crew member without having sat various safety courses none of which are cheap! Living onboard gives the ship much needed flexibility but is more costly. Unfortunately unlike trains its not possible to have hop on hop off staff to the same exent or alter the cargo/pax carrying ability by adding coaches.

Courisk is on the Clyde during the winter months and also other routes as required which rules out living ashore. Pentalina as a fast craft will use ashore accommodation as this is her sole run plus they dont make fast craft with crew accommodation, at least none I know of. It was mentioned by an other that she has no dry dock relief cover, Northlink is expected to pick up the extra traffic. CalMac always have a relief vessel to send anywhere in the network when required hence the importantance of the life line service. On another interesting note Hebridean Isles and Isle of Lewis used to cover Hamnavoes dry dock period. Im pretty sure they did the odd dry dock charter for Pentland ferries too.

 

[GrimShady]

Its true the Western Ferries Islay run was the victim of dirty tricks. The design of CalMacs streakers was heavily based of Westerns MV Isle of Islay, I encourge all to have a look at the striking similarities between MV Isle of Islay & MV Jupiter plus sisters.

 

[Highland37]

Mirrlees 8mb out of date? Maybe the super k, granted, most are now using MAN or Sulzer.

Thanks for the information which is very interesting. Also, Grimshady, your information is very interesting too.

Are the Mirrlees K Major units in the IoL worn out and were they new when they were put in?

What's the engine hours on major units such as the IoA, LOTI and IoM? In fact, which is highest?

What's the issue with LOTI's hull?

Sorry for all the questions!

 

[kylemore]

Its true the Western Ferries Islay run was the victim of dirty tricks. The design of CalMacs streakers was heavily based of Westerns MV Isle of Islay, I encourge all to have a look at the striking similarities between MV Isle of Islay & MV Jupiter plus sisters.

I think you mean the MV Sound of Islay - but yes outwardly very similar - you might be interested to know she's still going strong in Canada and in fact has been subject to a life extending multi million dollar refit!

 

[Blindtraveler]

I was quite fond of the Streakers even though I only got a handful of salings on them in their twylight years.
Fine ships but like so many things their replacements they didnt look after them at the end

 

[GrimShady]

Thanks for the information which is very interesting. Also, Grimshady, your information is very interesting too.

Are the Mirrlees K Major units in the IoL worn out and were they new when they were put in?

What's the engine hours on major units such as the IoA, LOTI and IoM? In fact, which is highest?

What's the issue with LOTI's hull?

Sorry for all the questions!

No problem Highland I hope its been enlightening!

With regard to engine hours on the larger vessels I'm afraid I don't have this information. IIRC IOLs plant was brand new upon installation. I happen to know a few people on her at this time, I'll drop them a line.

LOTI has had issues with steel thinning for some time now, as stated before this isn't unusual for a ship her age. Most RoRos will have thinning steel on the somewhere around this age, usually the vehicle decks. Modern ships are even worse in this regard due to the usually crap quality steel from foreign yards. Another area that requires attention is the ballast tanks and a lesser extent the bunker tanks, I've been on ships before where huge amounts of steel work has had to be replaced due to corrosion or thinning. There are many causes of this such is poor cathodic protection, poor quality steel, improperly treated steel etc

 

[GrimShady]

I think you mean the MV Sound of Islay - but yes outwardly very similar - you might be interested to know she's still going strong in Canada and in fact has been subject to a life extending multi million dollar refit!

Correct!

I was aware she still on the go. Imagine the delivery voyage taking her across the North Atlantic!

 

[link1driver]

Thanks for the information which is very interesting. Also, Grimshady, your information is very interesting too.

Are the Mirrlees K Major units in the IoL worn out and were they new when they were put in?

What's the engine hours on major units such as the IoA, LOTI and IoM? In fact, which is highest?

What's the issue with LOTI's hull?

Sorry for all the questions!

Isle of Lewis machinery suffered badly when they switched her over to burn heavy oil, quite a few reliability issues then which gave the impression that she was getting unreliable. Problem solved when she went back to marine diesel!