I feel sympathy for train staff

[al78]

Not so long ago I was on my way home, in first class, when the guard came in soon after leaving Victoria and caught a woman in the next bay without a first class ticket "because I'm only going to East Croydon"! He patiently explained to her that he would have to charge her £20 and she set about paying, but loudly proclaiming that he was being rude to her (he wasn't in the slightest). After a bit more of this, I loudly told her that I had heard everything the guard had said to her, that he wasn't being rude, but she was, and to behave herself. She asked what it had to do with me and I responded that her behaviour had made it to do with me, and she should stop causing a scene to try to excuse her own misdemeanour. She shut up.

Well done. That is the holy grail of dealing with a gobby person. Finding the response that is not abusive, but is firm and so solid they cannot retaliate without making themselves look even more of a prat.

 

[Antman]

Anyone in a job that entails them talking to and possibly arguing with the public has the same problems.
This is nothing specifically to do with the railways just an example of how a hell of a lot of the public are horrible individuals.

Exactly that. I've done security work and dealt with worse. It has to be said that the guard has done himself no favours at all by the way he has acted.

 

[Polarbear]

Well done. That is the holy grail of dealing with a gobby person. Finding the response that is not abusive, but is firm and so solid they cannot retaliate without making themselves look even more of a prat.

That works on many occasions, but not every time unfortunately.

Diverting slightly from the thread, I was on a bus from Liverpool to Ellesmere Port around 6 weeks back when a young lad started to play his music loudly & "dancing" in the aisle. Myself and another passenger asked him, politely but firmly, to turn it down, after which we were both subjected to a fair amount of verbal abuse for the remaining journey.

During all this, (it lasted around 15 minutes), the driver did absolutely nothing, even when the verbal insults were made from the door when the bloke was getting off.

I complained to the company, asking what the companies' policy was in such circumstances. The operator apologied, but also said that it was the responsibility of the driver to have done something about the situation.

This is why I advocate separate staff to undertake random checks that would help address this issue. Pushing the responsibility onto the driver, who already has a lot to do, and will almost certainly be subject to abuse themselves should they intervene, is just an abdication of the duty of care I think public transport operators (and other areas to be fair), should have for their paying customers.

 

[455driver]

My proposal for addressing this sort of problem would be to adopt something along the lines of what Merseyrail do. That is to have a small group of security guards, suitably trained, and equipped with cameras (and if necessary, audio recording).

They would do random checks on trains and maybe at stations and would (in my opinion) act as a deterrent. Over time, word would get around about the regular spot-checks and one would hope to see a decrease in this sort of anti-social behaviour.

But what could these 'Security Guards' actually do that a Guard cant?

 

[455driver]

Remember the Big Man?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKKADFIEX84

Who the BTP did everything in their power to prosecute but the scummy 'student' suddenly became the poor hard done by 'victim' despite starting the situation!

Yeah I remember it well!

 

[Hadders]

Sadly these incidents can happen anywhere where the public are involved.

They key priority is to keep everyone safe. it's all very well getting into conflict with someone but the last thing anyone wants is for the guard or innocent passenger who gets involved to end up getting injured or killed.

Not every case of fare dodging can or will be caught. Better to report it and try and get the BTP (if it's significant) to meet the train at its destination or if it's a persistent problem report it to the TOC so that arrange for appropriate levels of security on future services.

 

[455driver]

eminently sensible but of course the Unions would object out of contrarianism ... as they did with tachographs in LGVs, ambient listening functionality in airwave radios etc etc etc

Which is why these cameras are in use at several TOCs with the Unions approval! :roll:

 

[GrimShady]

How the guard managed to stop himself from smashing this little buggers face in I'll never know!

Its a shame they have to put up with this kind of rubbish and unsympathetic members of the public with regard to the industry's determination to downgrade or remove their positions.

 

[al78]

How the guard managed to stop himself from smashing this little buggers face in I'll never know!

The guard knows that smashing his face in would only give momentary satisfaction, before the loss of job, criminal record and associated consequences kicks in (that is assuming he wouldn't get his own face smashed in), so is able to retain the required self control, as those consequences are not worth it.

Unfortunately the little buggers also know the guard, or anyone else in authority, is restricted by the same shackles, so they know they can be a defiant gobby ******* with no comeback, which is why they do it. It is the price we pay for living in a civilised society, but arguably better this than a society where anyone feels the entitlement to inflict their own view of justice on anyone else they think has crossed them.

 

[R4_GRN]

This is the problem when you are dealing with members of the public, they have nothing to lose, you can lose your job and pension. Not helped by managers who do not support their staff, take the easy way out and bow down to an "agreived" member of the public who has no common sense, but there again common sense is no longer applied everything has to be by a rule book.

 

[GrimShady]

They need taken off the train and introduced to a Home office sponsored "blanket party" in the rear of a Police wagon

 

[Blindtraveler]

Agreed. Im all for a welcoming party of nice BIG policemen at the next practicle location.

I do recall one time riding the cross city on an early Saturday evening
and the guard was checking tickets and was getting some greef from a couple of very drunck punters. All of a sudden from 2 rows behind me emerges an off duty policeman and his brother who turned out to be a builder. One look at a combined weight of about 35st and the druncan punters shut up and the guard was very grateful.

 

[Antman]

How the guard managed to stop himself from smashing this little buggers face in I'll never know!

Its a shame they have to put up with this kind of rubbish and unsympathetic members of the public with regard to the industry's determination to downgrade or remove their positions.

And the guard would find himself out of a job and in court so that wouldn't be a very sensible move would it? I'm sure he will have been trained how to deal with such situations.

As mentioned previously, anybody doing a public facing job risks this sort of situation, not just railway staff.

 

[GrimShady]

And the guard would find himself out of a job and in court so that wouldn't be a very sensible move would it? I'm sure he will have been trained how to deal with such situations.

As mentioned previously, anybody doing a public facing job risks this sort of situation, not just railway staff.

I'm sure it wouldn't have been a smart move but it would be nice for the good guys to have a win now and again.

As someone who sporadically interacts with the public I am fully aware these type of situations occur, fortunately in my game those who over step the mark find themselves having their liberty removed until they are either handed over to the local Police or have a sudden miraculous change in attitude

 

[satisnek]

Going back to the thread title, I fully agree. I haven't watched the video because I know it would just wind me up, not just what is contained therein but also the execrable little attention seeker who videoed the proceedings and posted it on a public platform.

I personally think that railway staff, particularly guards, do an amazing job dealing with the Great Unwashed. I couldn't do it myself and retain my sanity or my freedom, or both.

 

[amateur]

The filth of humanity they have to deal with. This clip shows just how powerless the guard is against a fare dodger. If they refuse to get off the train there looks to be nothing the guard can do. Any physical attempt to evict would be a potential assault charge. After seeing this I found myself wishing another passenger had got up and thumped him one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ti9WaR7N50U

I am assuming this is a fare dodger, not someone who has lost his ticket.

Delete

 

[Polarbear]

But what could these 'Security Guards' actually do that a Guard cant?

Hopefully, enforce railway by-laws, as well as general law. Act as a deterrent, provide a degree of comfort and security to other customers. Maybe I'm being simplistic, but I do feel that management need to take the issue much more seriously than appears to be the case at present.

Trained security guards should also be able to eject troublemakers from, what is, private property. Again, I may be missing something, but buying a ticket enters the individual into a contract with the company. It seems somewhat one sided where operators are expected to uphold their part of the contract, yet some 'customers' see fit to not hold up their side of the arrangement.

As for fare evaders, they're trespassers as they haven't entered into any contract, nor have permission to be on private property. It should therefore be straightforward for properly trained security staff to ensure that such individuals are evicted from said private property.

Little if any of the above should be down to the rail staff.

 

[Merseysider]

Genuine question; is that a penis tattoo on the right hand side of his face? It certainly looks like it.

I'd see nothing wrong with leaving the fare dodger's property on the platform, and telling him either he goes or the train goes

 

[Polarbear]

Genuine question; is that a penis tattoo on the right hand side of his face? It certainly looks like it.

I'd see nothing wrong with leaving the fare dodger's property on the platform, and telling him either he goes or the train goes

Those commenting on YouTube seem to think it's a knife. It could however, represent that chaps' name?

 

[wingsoveryorks]

Hopefully, enforce railway by-laws, as well as general law. Act as a deterrent, provide a degree of comfort and security to other customers. Maybe I'm being simplistic, but I do feel that management need to take the issue much more seriously than appears to be the case at present.

Trained security guards should also be able to eject troublemakers from, what is, private property. Again, I may be missing something, but buying a ticket enters the individual into a contract with the company. It seems somewhat one sided where operators are expected to uphold their part of the contract, yet some 'customers' see fit to not hold up their side of the arrangement.

As for fare evaders, they're trespassers as they haven't entered into any contract, nor have permission to be on private property. It should therefore be straightforward for properly trained security staff to ensure that such individuals are evicted from said private property.

Little if any of the above should be down to the rail staff.

I'll tell you what they can do, nothing at all. The only way to stop these freaks from operating is to blockage every station. Fat chance when organisations like 'West Yorkshire Metro' have spent the past 20 years knocking holes in walls to create more avenues to enter platforms without a ticket.

It is like a conspiracy. Those who should be protecting revenue doing all they can to make it impossible, then they go bleating about cutting costs, and the staff who actually do stop the rot.

You couldn't make it up.

 

[Polarbear]

I'll tell you what they can do, nothing at all. The only way to stop these freaks from operating is to blockage every station. Fat chance when organisations like 'West Yorkshire Metro' have spent the past 20 years knocking holes in walls to create more avenues to enter platforms without a ticket.

It is like a conspiracy. Those who should be protecting revenue doing all they can to make it impossible, then they go bleating about cutting costs, and the staff who actually do stop the rot.

You couldn't make it up.

It's an unfortunate facet of modern life - those making the decisions rarely, if ever, have any experience of the consequence of those decisions. It's also rare that those making said decisions ever face repercussions when & if something goes wrong (unless the Daily Mail/Express gets on the case).

 

[nanstallon]

In modern Britain, the yob is king. They have all the yuman rites nonsense on their side, with fawning legal aid solicitors and toothless courts which don't take violence or threatening behaviour seriously. And in my experience as an employee, management do not back the guy on the front line.

On the other side of the coin, the complex rules about ticket validity are a recipe for conflict between a TTI and the public. While I don't defend fare dodging, I do have some sympathy for a passenger who has a ticket but which for some obscure reason is not valid for the particular train that he/ she is on.

 

[Antman]

It's an unfortunate facet of modern life - those making the decisions rarely, if ever, have any experience of the consequence of those decisions. It's also rare that those making said decisions ever face repercussions when & if something goes wrong (unless the Daily Mail/Express gets on the case).

They would also have to justify the costs of staff who would be standing around doing nothing for much of the time. The idea of blockading every station is just pie in the sky I'm afraid.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

It's an unfortunate facet of modern life - those making the decisions rarely, if ever, have any experience of the consequence of those decisions. It's also rare that those making said decisions ever face repercussions when & if something goes wrong (unless the Daily Mail/Express gets on the case).

True. And when they have demoralised their staff to the point where they no longer give a s***. They'll be wondering where it all went wrong.

Reminds you of the prison service. Another Greyling baby.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

Which is why these cameras are in use at several TOCs with the Unions approval! :roll:

as has been seen with DOO that means nothing ...

 

[Sprinter153]

Very slightly off topic, how would guards/OBSs here feel about wearing a recording camera to:
a) provide photographic and audible evidence of any conflict, - maybe allowing BTP to apprehend those involved
and
b) curing some of the rail management denial of the problem

I would love to wear such a device. After a particularly grim encounter with one of what my mother would call 'the casualties of society' on stock without CCTV, nobody came forward as a witness and the assailant naturally denied it.

I was left with my physical wounds, a repeat prescription as long as your arm for my mental wounds, and a nice letter from the BTP saying, basically, hard cheese, we can't do anything. And precisely no thanks from management for adding one to the 'three-days-plus lost time incident count'.

Passengers (not always customers, since custom requires the exchange of funds) can be very cruel. They can be very nice too, but it's always the negative that comes to mind.

 

[theageofthetra]

I would love to wear such a device. After a particularly grim encounter with one of what my mother would call 'the casualties of society' on stock without CCTV, nobody came forward as a witness and the assailant naturally denied it.

I was left with my physical wounds, a repeat prescription as long as your arm for my mental wounds, and a nice letter from the BTP saying, basically, hard cheese, we can't do anything. And precisely no thanks from management for adding one to the 'three-days-plus lost time incident count'.

Passengers (not always customers, since custom requires the exchange of funds) can be very cruel. They can be very nice too, but it's always the negative that comes to mind.

Can't you bring a private prosecution against it?- that normally focuses their attention.

 

[theageofthetra]

In modern Britain, the yob is king. They have all the yuman rites nonsense on their side, with fawning legal aid solicitors and toothless courts which don't take violence or threatening behaviour seriously. And in my experience as an employee, management do not back the guy on the front line.

On the other side of the coin, the complex rules about ticket validity are a recipe for conflict between a TTI and the public. While I don't defend fare dodging, I do have some sympathy for a passenger who has a ticket but which for some obscure reason is not valid for the particular train that he/ she is on.

Unfortunately they are the ones targeted whilst the non contributing garbage get away with it.

 

[Bodiddly]

I would love to wear such a device. After a particularly grim encounter with one of what my mother would call 'the casualties of society' on stock without CCTV, nobody came forward as a witness and the assailant naturally denied it.

I was left with my physical wounds, a repeat prescription as long as your arm for my mental wounds, and a nice letter from the BTP saying, basically, hard cheese, we can't do anything. And precisely no thanks from management for adding one to the 'three-days-plus lost time incident count'.

Passengers (not always customers, since custom requires the exchange of funds) can be very cruel. They can be very nice too, but it's always the negative that comes to mind.

Sad to hear that. Employers have a duty of care for their workers but it seems all they care about are their RIDDOR stats. Any customer facing staff member in any industry face these kind of knuckleheads every working day. Most are harmless but the occasional borderline psychopath will kick off. Nobody should go to work and feel threatened and its up to management to make sure it doesn't happen, whatever the cost.

 

[AlterEgo]

Can't you bring a private prosecution against it?- that normally focuses their attention.

He just explained there was no evidence.