Arriva Rail North DOO

[ANorthernGuard]

Yes. Its a quick workaround as otherwise it would be a pain getting pax in and out of local doors only. Having said that, its not popular with guards anyway

I don't mind it personally but if some of the local idiots see us using the butterfly it can give them ideas.

 

[Moonshot]

Slightly confused by the comments about not dispatching from the front of what are fairly short trains. I can think of a couple of platforms in my area where you could dispatch a 12 coach train from the front couple of coaches in terms of visibility, though it's not now deemed to be ideal for watching the train out of the platform. But a typical Northern service, even with units in multiple, is much shorter and takes much less time to leave the platform - and surely there aren't that many platforms where it's impossible to see the rear of a 4 coach train from the front, with a bit of careful positioning?



Oooh, that's not normally allowed "Down South". The other option, which is more time consuming but involves no use of emergency equipment, is to lock out carriages/doors not accommodated on short platforms.

This is how 8 coach 455s work on the Dorking-Horsham route on Southern. The conductor goes back, moves people forward from coaches 7 & 8 and locks the exterior doors out, and then the gangway door between 6 & 7.

We do do that on a couple of routes, sectional appendix local instructions apply when we are using bigger trains....Slaithwaite and Marsden being 2 that spring to mind just now.

 

[Moonshot]

I don't mind it personally but if some of the local idiots see us using the butterfly it can give them ideas.

Indeed.......happened to me a couple of years ago. Took me a few mins to reailse what had happened as well!!!

 

[BestWestern]

Indeed.......happened to me a couple of years ago. Took me a few mins to reailse what had happened as well!!!

ATW began fitting perspex covers over theirs (on 150s) a few years back, due to 'issues' at certain exotic locations up the Valleys.

I tend to produce a carriage key and then do my best to obscure the view when using the butterfly in front of bystanders!

 

[Carlisle]

Yup, each to their own. Some folk find job security worth fighting for and all that jazz. Obviously, were you in a similar position, you'd smile sweetly at your bosses and shake their hand before bending over for them, just like all the other experts on here who have determined that those pesky rail staff should just suck it up... :roll:

I would agree there's a lot of work to be done on many fronts fighting for improved T&Cs for various rail staff, however rail unions currently seem obsessed with the DOO issues way way above anything else, not perhaps the best way forward assuming wage guarantees and zero compulsory redundancy agreements are being offered to the affected staff,
What actually makes a good union these days?, is it purely down to the ability to cause maxamum problems through stoppages or is there something else ?

 

[BestWestern]

I would agree there's a lot of work to be done on many fronts fighting for improved T&Cs for various rail staff, however rail unions currently seem obsessed with the DOO issues way way above anything else, not perhaps the best way forward assuming wage guarantees and zero compulsory redundancy agreements are being offered to the affected staff,
What actually makes a good union these days?, is it purely down to the ability to cause maxamum problems through stoppages or is there something else ?

There is a clearly stated government plan to impliment DOO in order to eventually cull huge numbers of staff from the railway. It isn't a secret, it isn't hidden, it is quite plainly there for all to see. Is the repreated, tiresome nonsense on here about it all being a figment of the unions' imaginations part of the government masterplan? Where else would you suggest the unions should direct their efforts? Assurances are unlikely for staff being put into non-jobs as a stepping stone to non-existance. Is it honestly that difficult for some members to grasp things that are clearly apparent? It's genuinely as perplexing as it is tedious...

 

[northwichcat]

There is a clearly stated government plan to impliment DOO in order to eventually cull huge numbers of staff from the railway. It isn't a secret, it isn't hidden, it is quite plainly there for all to see.

Post-2020 a train won't be able to operate unless at least one of the following applies:
1. There's someone other than the driver on board able to assist disabled passengers.
2. There's someone at every station the train calls at able to assist disabled passengers.
3. Trains and platforms are made so accessible that disabled passengers don't need assistance.

As 2 and 3 are unlikely on many rural lines, 1 will be the only option.

 

[BestWestern]

Post-2020 a train won't be able to operate unless at least one of the following applies:
1. There's someone other than the driver on board able to assist disabled passengers.
2. There's someone at every station the train calls at able to assist disabled passengers.
3. Trains and platforms are made so accessible that disabled passengers don't need assistance.

As 2 and 3 are unlikely on many rural lines, 1 will be the only option.

You've seen a written guarantee of that from the government, have you? The same document states that every single DOO train will be fully double manned, always, I presume?

Neither of which in any way matches the stated government intention to cut staff, which was written in black and white, in a publicly accessible (albeit since concealed) document.

When does the massive recruitment drive for all the thousands of extra required staff start?!

 

[northwichcat]

You've seen a written guarantee of that from the government, have you? The same document states that every single DOO train will be fully double manned, always, I presume?

I said where 2 and 3 are not practical. On Merseyrail it will be practical, as will be the case with electrified commuter routes in and out of London. On Northern it won't be viable to have station staff at low usage stations and there's too many different train types and platform heights to be able to provide level access from the platform to the train without paying a fortune to standardise the fleet and the infrastructure.

The Equalities Act is UK law and the exception for TOCs ends on 31st December 2019, so being unable to carry a wheelchair passenger will be as illegal as the TOC not paying the minimum wage.

When does the massive recruitment drive for all the thousands of extra required staff start?!

Northern and TPE are both in the process of recruiting additional drivers, guards and station staff, despite the RMT's claim that a greedy German company want to save money by cutting staff.

 

[BestWestern]

I said where 2 and 3 are not practical. On Merseyrail it will be practical, as will be the case with electrified commuter routes in and out of London. On Northern it won't be viable to have station staff at low usage stations and there's too many different train types and platform heights to be able to provide level access from the platform to the train without paying a fortune to standardise the fleet and the infrastructure.

The Equalities Act is UK law and the exception for TOCs ends on 31st December 2019, so being unable to carry a wheelchair passenger will be as illegal as the TOC not paying the minimum wage.



Northern and TPE are both in the process of recruiting additional drivers, guards and station staff, despite the RMT's claim that a greedy German company want to save money by cutting staff.

Northern and TPE both currently run entirely with Guards. Any current recruitment has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on future plans, it is simply filling vacancies which exist within the current operational structure, and which need to be filled to keep the wheels turning at present. I fail to see what recruiting Drivers has to do with the issue at all?

There is absolutely no way the government will oversee a massive influx of staff on the railway because of equality legislation. Once we're out of the EU, where would you suggest people might go to challenge the government on the issue? If you really think that, in the midst of a massive drive to slash staffing levels, we'll see thousands of roles created even at current DOO TOCs, as they'd have to be if we go with what you suggest, I think you're going to be very disappointed.

We shall have to wait and see what occurs!

 

[Lemmy99uk]

There is a clearly stated government plan to impliment DOO in order to eventually cull huge numbers of staff from the railway. It isn't a secret, it isn't hidden, it is quite plainly there for all to see.

Sorry - can you provide a link to this plan please?

 

[HarleyDavidson]

I've been sent this by someone who's just been given a holiday from the board.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/46912176@N06/34038588855/in/dateposted-public/

 

[Darren R]

Slightly confused by the comments about not dispatching from the front of what are fairly short trains. I can think of a couple of platforms in my area where you could dispatch a 12 coach train from the front couple of coaches in terms of visibility, though it's not now deemed to be ideal for watching the train out of the platform. But a typical Northern service, even with units in multiple, is much shorter and takes much less time to leave the platform - and surely there aren't that many platforms where it's impossible to see the rear of a 4 coach train from the front, with a bit of careful positioning?

It's a different world oop't north: there are platforms within the Northern franchise where it's impossible to see the rear of a 2 coach train from the front. At least one of which - Accrington - has no platform despatchers and is one of the Northern Connect stations destined to be served by DOO trains. I'm not entirely convinced this is as safe as some would have us believe.

 

[HH]

I'm not entirely convinced that Connect services will all be DCO.

 

[northwichcat]

Northern and TPE both currently run entirely with Guards. Any current recruitment has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on future plans, it is simply filling vacancies which exist within the current operational structure, and which need to be filled to keep the wheels turning at present. I fail to see what recruiting Drivers has to do with the issue at all?

There is absolutely no way the government will oversee a massive influx of staff on the railway because of equality legislation. Once we're out of the EU, where would you suggest people might go to challenge the government on the issue? If you really think that, in the midst of a massive drive to slash staffing levels, we'll see thousands of roles created even at current DOO TOCs, as they'd have to be if we go with what you suggest, I think you're going to be very disappointed.

We shall have to wait and see what occurs!

The Northern and TPE franchises both have to run a significant number of additional services, some starting this year, others not starting until the end of 2019 which is why they are recruiting so many extra train crews. The extra station staff is a franchise requirement.

 

[BestWestern]

The Northern and TPE franchises both have to run a significant number of additional services, some starting this year, others not starting until the end of 2019 which is why they are recruiting so many extra train crews. The extra station staff is a franchise requirement.

But again, none of that has any bearing on the future imposition of DOO. Do remember that a Guards' strike at Northern will have a far more crippling effect than was the case at Southern; everything on Northern currently requires a Guard. The management aren't going to do anything to rock the boat until the dirty hand of the DfT forces them to.

 

[BestWestern]

Sorry - can you provide a link to this plan please?

See HarleyDavidson's post below yours.

 

[northwichcat]

I've been sent this by someone who's just been given a holiday from the board.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/46912176@N06/34038588855/in/dateposted-public/

I see that is dated 2 years ago. Don't forget in 2012 McNulty said ticket offices should be closed and from the Northern consultation in 2014 it seemed that was an option being considered for the next Northern franchise but by 2015 that decision had not only been reversed but a requirement for more ticket offices was included in the ITT.

 

[northwichcat]

I'm not entirely convinced that Connect services will all be DCO.

I think that's a fair assessment. There will be Connect routes which will have something like 17 services a day and 13 Connect services, or 19 services with a guarantee that 14 will be operated by brand new trains. Plus the North East to Cumbria one will only be using refurbished 158s.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I see that is dated 2 years ago. Don't forget in 2012 McNulty said ticket offices should be closed and from the Northern consultation in 2014 it seemed that was an option being considered for the next Northern franchise but by 2015 that decision had not only been reversed but a requirement for more ticket offices was included in the ITT.

There is no requirement for more ticket offices, it is a requirement for more staffed stations.

 

[scrapy]

Yes apparantly these additional staffed stations will be staffed by STM in the morning peak only (from 2018 until 2021 when they will be employed by Northern) They may or may not have a star mobile machines.

Al these stations will have cash/card tvms by this point.

 

[Lemmy99uk]

See HarleyDavidson's post below yours.

That is a small extract from a 5 page strategy document explaining the saving to be made from different DOO(P) options.

It is not a 'clearly stated government plan to cull hundreds of jobs'.

 

[LETHLFH]

McNulty writes a report suggesting lower staff numbers and lower staff wages and specifically mentions dispatch as a place savings could be made, after that franchises start being awarded based on TOCs making promises to implement DOO. If anybody thinks this is anything other than cost cutting they are mad!!!

 

[BestWestern]

That is a small extract from a 5 page strategy document explaining the saving to be made from different DOO(P) options.

It is not a 'clearly stated government plan to cull hundreds of jobs'.

And Southern/GTR, and Arriva Trains Northern, and Merseyrail...

Nope, no plan here...

The 'different DOO options' were:

Get rid of all the Guards now

or,

Get rid of all the Guards later.

Nothing to worry about there at all, obviously. I mean, turkeys don't need to worry about Christmas yet do they, it's only April...

 

[BestWestern]

McNulty writes a report suggesting lower staff numbers and lower staff wages and specifically mentions dispatch as a place savings could be made, after that franchises start being awarded based on TOCs making promises to implement DOO. If anybody thinks this is anything other than cost cutting they are mad!!!

No, it definitely isn't. People on here have said so! It's just rail staff, we're all paranoid and hysterical... (and lazy, and greedy, and overpaid, and quite frankly brassy beyond belief for trying to defend the jobs which feed our children, etc etc....) Do keep up!

 

[Lemmy99uk]

And Southern/GTR, and Arriva Trains Northern, and Merseyrail...

Nope, no plan here...

The 'different DOO options' were:

Get rid of all the Guards now

or,

Get rid of all the Guards later.

Nothing to worry about there at all, obviously. I mean, turkeys don't need to worry about Christmas yet do they, it's only April...

You are playing with words. By getting rid of the Guards you actually mean the grade and not the people.

Although Merseyrail are proposing a reduction in staffing levels, Arriva have said time and time again that there will be no redundancies and they want to roster a second person on every train.

 

[BestWestern]

You are playing with words. By getting rid of the Guards you actually mean the grade and not the people.

Although Merseyrail are proposing a reduction in staffing levels, Arriva have said time and time again that there will be no redundancies and they want to roster a second person on every train.

GTR also said no redundancies. In fact, they did everything they possibly could to wriggle out of the very thought of it. Very noble. And money-saving. I sure as hell wouldn't wanna be working there though. Maybe Merseyrail will be different. GTR is the government test bed though, so I think we can assume that brand of 'management by brick to the face' might well be seen again.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

My God, so much fuss about a subject of so little understanding.

Let me tell you what McNulty was. He was a faceless idiot who's understanding of the railway was as limited as Wilkinson's. But now all his flawed thinking is beginning to appear.

Even Northern accept the limitations of DCO within the franchise. They are absolutely desperate to get the RMT to talk about how to move this forward, because they know, like I know, that it is the RMT members who contain the knowledge of where DCO would work, and where it would be a costly flop.

Everytime the railway introduces technological changes to ticketing etc, the thieves find a way of thieving some more. The latest wheeze is not activating mobile tickets, booking tickets for trains that are later than the one they travel on, then seeking a refund if they don't get caught. Just how is not having staff on a train going to stop the fraud? Northern know this, and at a time where revenue is going to have to be protected in the face of subsidy cuts, they are desperate for answers.
Spoken from the top. They want to give the door operation to the drivers so the conductors can spend more time stopping the theft.

As for staff on stations. Let's look at one line. The Settle-Carlisle. Just how on earth could that work? You would need over two shifts 20 people minimum. Where are the toilet facilities, the places to have breaks. It is utter nonsense and not worthy of even discussing. But of course in the world of McNulty it's brilliant.
Ever since privatisation the railway has become a political football like education, prisons, NHS. Social Care. All kicked about in the name of political ideology, and all failing miserably.

One day the circle will go full circle. They will all wake up and realise that it wasn't such a good idea after all. But first the bean counters have to have their day.

 

[Carlisle]

As for staff on stations. Let's look at one line. The Settle-Carlisle. Just how on earth could that work? You would need over two shifts 20 people minimum. Where are the toilet facilities, the places to have breaks. It is utter nonsense and not worthy of even discussing. But of course in the world of McNulty it's brilliant.

However he was annoyingly bright enough to fathom out many (probably busier) mostly or totally unstaffed stations on say the Thames Valley line for instance have been served perfectly adequately by DOO trains for the last 25 years or more

 

[BestWestern]

However he was annoyingly bright enough to fathom out many (probably busier) mostly or totally unstaffed stations on say the Thames Valley line for instance have been served perfectly adequately by DOO trains for the last 25 years or more

He 'fathomed' very little, it was quite clear what his paymasters required him to conclude. He was irritatingly not brilliant enough to fathom the obscene waste that happens through poor contracting, rolling stock leasing and various other functions.