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Livingston North Ladder incident (occured in early April)

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brad465

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More info here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-39600089

Four "reckless" youths who tied a metal ladder to railway tracks in West Lothian are being hunted by police.
Officers said the consequences could have been "catastrophic" when an Edinburgh train ploughed through it at Livingston North station.
The Scotrail driver spotted the ladder and applied the brakes, but was unable to stop in time.
The youths were witnessed tethering the ladder to the tracks.
They remained at the scene to watch as it was hit by the train.
British Transport Police tweeted an image of the crushed ladder in a bid to trace those behind the incident...
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Sounds quite daft and stupid, thankfully though there appear to be no injuries or serious damage.

Apologies if someone's already posted about this but I couldn't find it.
 
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Zoidberg

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neonison said:
I condemn this absolutely but would not tying an aluminium ladder across the four-foot show up on track circuits?
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From the BTP picture it looks as though the ladder was tied along the top of one rail rather than across the two, so no hope at all of a track circuit detecting it.
 
Zoidberg

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neonison said:
I condemn this absolutely but would not tying an aluminium ladder across the four-foot show up on track circuits?
Click to expand...

From the pictures showing the damage to the ladder, it seems to have been placed along a rail, rather than across the tracks.

EDIT: Snap! John Webb :)
 
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Merseysider

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Glad that it seems nobody was injured, and I hope the perps face justice. And I hope karma bites them in the behind at some point.
 
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What concerns me is that according to the article they were witnessed actualy doing this. Why the hell didn't someone do something about it? Have we really got to the point where people committing acts that could result in deaths are left to get on with it?
 
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Bantamzen said:
What concerns me is that according to the article they were witnessed actualy doing this. Why the hell didn't someone do something about it? Have we really got to the point where people committing acts that could result in deaths are left to get on with it?
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What was the time frame between the ladder being placed on the line and when the train arrived?
 
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Not a lot would happen; in Selby they closed a skate park because the people who misuse it can't be dealt with appropriately.

Yes people are too scared to take action and yes our legal and justice system is inadequate and will ensure that, if caught, justice is not served.

A relatively small proportion of individuals are allowed to act in a feral manner and cause danger and distress to good people. I see people like this on a frequent basis and i know they think of themselves as virtually untouchable by the law.

I know a few forum members disagree with me, and other contributors to this thread, on these issues but they may change their mind if the actions of such individuals impacted on their lives and the lives of people they knew.
 
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HowardGWR

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Bantamzen said:
I don't know, but that doesn't stop someone trying to stop them in the first place.
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I agree. We have to ask what we would do. The observer who apparently did nothing was stood there long enough to watch them fixing the ladder to the rail and then longer still to watch them watching the result.

Even if I did not have a mobile phone, I think I would have run until I found someone who did. Clearly the witness has come forward, in which case they are not saved being called when the youths are eventually charged. If the motivation for doing nothing was to save becoming personally inconvenienced, it hasn't worked.

Of course, they may have immediately responded and stayed on to collect as much id as possible about the perps.
 
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Class 170101

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If there is only one witness do you think it likely they would have approached four youths? Personally I consider it unlikely for fear of being beaten up.
 
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HowardGWR

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Class 170101 said:
If there is only one witness do you think it likely they would have approached four youths? Personally I consider it unlikely for fear of being beaten up.
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Certainly not but one could remain quietly out of the way. We don't know what the situation was do we? The 'fun' is thinking what we would do. I think I would have slipped away quickly and phoned, as I suggested.
 
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Bantamzen said:
I don't know, but that doesn't stop someone trying to stop them in the first place.
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Stop them how? Yell/shout at them? Go on the tracks and try and apprehend them yourself?

Depending how much time the witness has and the type of witness will vary the options available and to criticise said witness without knowing the full facts is unfair.
 
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Chris M

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We don't know anywhere near enough to criticise what the witness did or did not do.
Were they on the same side of the tracks as those who placed the ladder?
Were they able bodied?
Were they an adult?
Did they have any means of contacting the authorities?
Did they have time to contact the authorities before the train arrived?
Did they authorities get the message in time to act before the train arrived? (if the witness spoke to 999 and was only able to give an approximate location it may take some minutes (or longer - c.f. the landslip near Bradford) before drivers can be alerted)
Was the witness responsible for the safety of another person (child, disabled person, etc) they could not leave?
Was the witness clear about what was happening before the train hit?
Was it the witness who observed the perpetrators hanging around to observe the result, or were they seen by e.g. the driver?
 
Crossover

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Class 170101 said:
If there is only one witness do you think it likely they would have approached four youths? Personally I consider it unlikely for fear of being beaten up.
Click to expand...

Agreed - if I was in such a situation and didn't have any support, I'm not sure what I would/could do. The best way would be to use a help point on the station as they would know the exact location that way, but it would draw attention from the perps. On the flip side, one could slink away to phone 999 (not unreasonable under the circumstances) but by the time the relevant info had been taken and the relevant authorities contacted by the emergency services, it may be too late to caution a train over anyway
 
QueensCurve

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May I propose a change to the tread title. Whenever I see it it makes me think of "ladder" as in "single ladder crosssing" not as in, well, ladder.
 
QueensCurve

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Crossover said:
Agreed - if I was in such a situation and didn't have any support, I'm not sure what I would/could do. The best way would be to use a help point on the station as they would know the exact location that way, but it would draw attention from the perps. On the flip side, one could slink away to phone 999 (not unreasonable under the circumstances) but by the time the relevant info had been taken and the relevant authorities contacted by the emergency services, it may be too late to caution a train over anyway
Click to expand...

Call Network Rail on 03457 11 41 41?
 
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Bantamzen

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GB said:
Stop them how? Yell/shout at them? Go on the tracks and try and apprehend them yourself?

Depending how much time the witness has and the type of witness will vary the options available and to criticise said witness without knowing the full facts is unfair.
Click to expand...

Yes exactly, do everything you feel you can to stop them. And if the there was a threat of physical violence (and just because there were 4 of them doesn't mean that there was, many people's bravado doesn't last long when challenged even in groups) then raise the alarm but also try to get the attention of anyone nearby to try to deter them. Reading the article, it does suggest that they hung around waiting for a train to see what happened so this seems to imply at least a few minutes elapsed.

The problem with a certain element is that people dare not challenge them, even if it just involves shouting at them and making a fuss so that other people become aware of a situation. So they grow in confidence and believe that no-one can touch them. But when people actually do challenge them, it is often the case that they are unprepared and therefore unwilling to risk getting into a situation. Its not always the case of course, but at the very least challenging them will give an indication of how likely it may be.
 
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