Wrongfully sent a fine

[streatham2017]

Hiya - I was travelling from my home station (Streatham) to King's Cross St. Pancreas to catch a Eurostar train. I tapped in using a Canadian credit card (where I'm from) but when I tried to tap out, it said 'error reading'. Considering it had let me through the gates in Streatham, I asked for help and to let me out. To start, the man that "helped" me didn't even realize that trains rain from Streatham to St. Pancreas, and didn't understand the problem even though I pulled him multiple times to check the screen. After checking my passport he took down my details and finally let me out.

I have already been charged for having tapped in and have this on my banking statement, but received a summons saying I need to pay a fine. I've tried calling the number on the summons multiple times but have gotten no response, how can I go about this?

Any help would be much appreciated.

Thank you!

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Did you try and tap out at the Underground station or St Pancras International?

To clarify, have you received a summons to attend court?

Did you not receive a letter from the TOC beforehand asking for an explanation?

 

[MikeWh]

As robert7111a has asked, it would be useful if you could clarify what you have received, and from whom. I assume that you were trying to exit from St Pancras Thameslink platforms as that is where direct trains from Streatham run to. That is actually nothing to do with Kings Cross or Kings Cross St Pancras Underground station. Please do correct me if I'm wrong.

Have you registered your contactless card on the TfL website at https://contactless.tfl.gov.uk/ yet? If you haven't then you should do so as soon as possible. Once registered you'll be able to view journey history for up to a year. You should also be able to do something about the incomplete journey. You may be able to auto complete it, or you can query the journey and see whether TfL will do it for you. I don't know whether there is a time limit on when this can be done, so do it as soon as possible. You will then get a refund down to the fare that you should have paid. You may have to provide your bank details if the Oyster system can't automatically refund it.

Once the journey has been resolved by whatever means necessary you can print off the relevant journey history and use it to appeal against whatever GTR (I assume) have sent you. We can give more accurate advice if you can describe what you've received in more detail.

Even if it turns out that the amended journey history is not acceptable, at least you will have got back some of the money you have so far paid.

 

[PeterC]

Can you register overseas cards?

 

[Panda]

Can you register overseas cards?

Usually yes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Oh dear, not incompetent GTR RPIs again

Yes, best option is to try to amass evidence as suggested above.

 

[Haywain]

Oh dear, not incompetent GTR RPIs again

No. How is the RPI supposed to know that a valid card is held if it isn't read by the gateline? They can't see a charge from a touch in and can't see a balance on the card. As they operate a penalty fare scheme the alternatives available to them are to issue a penalty fare or report the passenger, and the latter does give the option for it to be resolved correctly. However, I do admit that he should know their trains call at Streatham but perhaps there was a pronunciation issue involved which confused things.

 

[streatham2017]

I would have understood had I received a request for an explanation, but the man at St Pancreas seemed to have no understanding of what was happening. He didn't even try to read my card to see if it had been tapped in (which it had).

I was indeed exiting from the Thameslink (not the underground apologies). Once I register the card and identify the trip, does anyone have any advice on how to proceed? I haven't been able to get through to anyone on the phone number given, and I don't know if I feel comfortable mailing screenshots of my bank statements showing the charges made.

Thank you all for your help!

 

[sheff1]

I have already been charged for having tapped in and have this on my banking statement, but received a summons saying I need to pay a fine.

There seems to a problem with terminology in your post. A "summons" is an order to appear before a court. A "fine" can only be issued if you plead guilty or if you are found guilty by the court. More details can be found here http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1321782.

It sounds like you may have been asked to pay a Penalty Fare. As you have already paid the correct fare for the journey made using the contactless card then a Penalty Fare is not due.

It would be helpful if you could provide a scan of the letter, with any personal details redacted. That would allow the best advice to be given.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No. How is the RPI supposed to know that a valid card is held if it isn't read by the gateline? They can't see a charge from a touch in and can't see a balance on the card. As they operate a penalty fare scheme the alternatives available to them are to issue a penalty fare or report the passenger, and the latter does give the option for it to be resolved correctly.

OK, incompetent prosecutions department, then. I'd have gone with a PF, much easier to resolve.

I assume the OP tried more than one gate?

 

[Haywain]

I would have understood had I received a request for an explanation, but the man at St Pancreas seemed to have no understanding of what was happening. He didn't even try to read my card to see if it had been tapped in (which it had).

If you were using contactless card payment I don't believe it is possible to identify that. On London Underground the RPIs reader simply registers a reading against the card and the overnight processing decides whether the card was valid or not (note: non-technical explanation!).

I was indeed exiting from the Thameslink (not the underground apologies). Once I register the card and identify the trip, does anyone have any advice on how to proceed? I haven't been able to get through to anyone on the phone number given, and I don't know if I feel comfortable mailing screenshots of my bank statements showing the charges made.

If you've registered your card you should now be able to print off your journey history. Even if that facility isn't available you can do a screen shot and print that off. That should be enough to show that the journey has been paid for.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you were using contactless card payment I don't believe it is possible to identify that. On London Underground the RPIs reader simply registers a reading against the card and the overnight processing decides whether the card was valid or not (note: non-technical explanation!).

I believe it *is* now possible.

 

[tsr]

I believe it *is* now possible.

No, it isn't. At least not on the portable devices (RIDs) which GTR and other TOCs use to check Contactless cards.

The only information presented is whether the card is valid for travel or not. There is no information on any location/time of the touch-in, waypoints, balance or even card details.

If the card has been used for 3 or more incomplete journeys then it may end up Not Authorised For Travel, in which case it may show as having been blocked. If an attempt is then made to travel, this could result in a report being made to Prosecutions for further investigation (though not necessarily a prosecution itself). This may well not be what happened here, though.

 

[Tetchytyke]

How is the RPI supposed to know that a valid card is held if it isn't read by the gateline? They can't see a charge from a touch in and can't see a balance on the card.

The fact a contactless card isn't read by the gateline proves nothing. The fact that a contactless card IS read by the gatelines also proves nothing.

The handheld machine registers an inspection check, and if someone hasn't touched in then the backend deals with it. Fail too many inspection checks and your card gets blocked, and the handheld machine registers that.

A duff Oyster pad shouldn't result in a PF.

 

[Haywain]

The fact a contactless card isn't read by the gateline proves nothing. The fact that a contactless card IS read by the gatelines also proves nothing.

The handheld machine registers an inspection check, and if someone hasn't touched in then the backend deals with it.

And if they don't touch out? To me, it appears that the ability to touch out is the key to this case. If you can't touch out you can't pay the appropriate fare, so some sanction would seem to be reasonable. Otherwise people would be wandering all over London with contactless cards that don't actually contact the readers and travelling for free.

A duff Oyster pad shouldn't result in a PF.

No PF was issued and there is no indication that any card reader was at fault.

 

[Tetchytyke]

And if they don't touch out?

If you don't touch in, and the inspection is recorded against your CPC, then it will register as a failed inspection and charge the maximum fare. If you get too many failed inspections then your CPC gets blacklisted by the system. The handheld machine will tell an inspector whether a CPC is blacklisted.

If you touch in but don't touch out, then a maximum fare is recorded against your CPC regardless of why you don't touch out.

The issue is quite simple. The RPI should record the inspection using the equipment. If the inspection shows a blacklisted card, then straight to a MG11. If the inspection doesn't show a blacklisted card, then TfL will sort it out that evening and GTR will get their money one way or another.

If the OP has touched in then TfL will charge a maximum fare and GTR can go swivel.

If the OP hadn't touched in then, if an inspection is done properly, TfL will charge a maximum fare and GTR can go swivel.

It's quite terrifying how little understanding GTR and their RPIs have of what is, fundamentally, the most basic ticketing system in the entire country.

 

[Haywain]

If you don't touch in, and the inspection is recorded against your CPC, then it will register as a failed inspection and charge the maximum fare. If you get too many failed inspections then your CPC gets blacklisted by the system. The handheld machine will tell an inspector whether a CPC is blacklisted.

If you touch in but don't touch out, then a maximum fare is recorded against your CPC regardless of why you don't touch out.

The issue is quite simple. The RPI should record the inspection using the equipment. If the inspection shows a blacklisted card, then straight to a MG11. If the inspection doesn't show a blacklisted card, then TfL will sort it out that evening and GTR will get their money one way or another.

If the OP has touched in then TfL will charge a maximum fare and GTR can go swivel.

If the OP hadn't touched in then, if an inspection is done properly, TfL will charge a maximum fare and GTR can go swivel.

It's quite terrifying how little understanding GTR and their RPIs have of what is, fundamentally, the most basic ticketing system in the entire country.

And what about the potential scenario of hadn't touched in and can't touch out? You seem to want to avoid that.

 

[Tetchytyke]

And what about the potential scenario of hadn't touched in and can't touch out? You seem to want to avoid that.

I have answered you.

If an RPI does an inspection check on a CPC that hasn't been touched in, using the correct equipment, then the CPC will be charged a maximum fare at the end of the day.

If you get caught three times doing this, your card will be blacklisted.

 

[jon0844]

How does a gate know you touched in with a CPC? Does it get information sent to it to know? Or could you fail to tap in but tap out successfully?

Wouldn't a CPC always work if not blacklisted?

 

[swt_passenger]

How does a gate know you touched in with a CPC? Does it get information sent to it to know? Or could you fail to tap in but tap out successfully?

Wouldn't a CPC always work if not blacklisted?

It doesn't know. It just knows the card isn't on the blacklist at that time. All fare processing occurs in the back office after the event is recorded. If the system cannot match it up with a touch in a maximum cash fare will be charged.

 

[MikeWh]

There's a lot of guff on this thread debating how the contactless system works. It would be helpful to the OP if posters refrain from offering advice unless they are clear what they are talking about.

I would have understood had I received a request for an explanation, but the man at St Pancreas seemed to have no understanding of what was happening. He didn't even try to read my card to see if it had been tapped in (which it had).

This is crucial. He was aware that you were using a contactless card and he didn't actually try to check it's validity? If true, that is absolutely terrible.

I was indeed exiting from the Thameslink (not the underground apologies). Once I register the card and identify the trip, does anyone have any advice on how to proceed? I haven't been able to get through to anyone on the phone number given, and I don't know if I feel comfortable mailing screenshots of my bank statements showing the charges made.

Thank you all for your help!

Once you've registered the card and found the journey you can click on it. You'll then have a link to contact them (TfL) about the journey. You might also have a link to allow you to enter the details of the missing touch. If you have then use that.

Once that is all complete then you should be able to print out a journey history or payment history showing that everything has been resolved. That is what you can use to rebuff the charges from GTR.

 

[tsr]

This is crucial. He was aware that you were using a contactless card and he didn't actually try to check it's validity? If true, that is absolutely terrible.

With respect, when contactless cards are checked by an RPI, it's not validity but authorisation - in other words, the only thing they know about that card is whether or not it is authorised to pay for travel, not if it is recording a journey correctly in order for valid payment to be taken. They're somewhat different things as a valid journey record is only calculated (and visible) later. I agree the card should have been checked, but realistically any consistent failure to be allowed to exit the station may be the only indicator to the revenue staff that something is amiss and needs checking.

A contactless card being rejected at the gateline can be caused by a few reasons and it is worth investigating. It's also worth saying that many stations have their gatelines periodically opened, and people try to touch in with contactless cards which would otherwise not open the barriers at the start of the journey - then don't realise there's a problem, and continue on their way until they meet an operational gateline. This is also surprisingly common with Oyster. It is fairly logical to suggest there is a possibility that if someone is unable to exit at all with a contactless card, there's also a chance that they haven't entered a station in the correct manner, either intentionally or accidentally.

In other words: the card may (or may not) show up as authorised for travel, but if it's not working the gatelines then there is a chance that something is amiss, and theoretically it may not have been used correctly at the start of the journey, either.

As the OP has clearly said that they touched in correctly at Streatham and the barriers opened, if this is indeed what happened then I would suggest it is very likely that they have no cause for concern.

Once that is all complete then you should be able to print out a journey history or payment history showing that everything has been resolved. That is what you can use to rebuff the charges from GTR.

If GTR (or any TOC) sees any form of printout noting that an incomplete journey has been corrected, or requests this information from TfL, questions may be asked about the use of the card and whether there was any intention not to touch in or out correctly. This may not solve all problems, ever. In this case, though, it may.

 

[MikeWh]

With respect, when contactless cards are checked by an RPI, it's not validity but authorisation - in other words, the only thing they know about that card is whether or not it is authorised to pay for travel, not if it is recording a journey correctly in order for valid payment to be taken.

I think we're saying the same thing. I wouldn't call it authorisation because that suggests contact with the bank and an amount. The only two things that are checked is whether the card appears as a working contactless card, and then that it doesn't appear on the current blacklist.

To the OP: Another advantage of having your card registered with TfL is that today's journey history is viewable with a 5-15 minute lag after every touch. In your situation you might have been able to show the inspector your touch in at Streatham.

 

[tsr]

I think we're saying the same thing. I wouldn't call it authorisation because that suggests contact with the bank and an amount. The only two things that are checked is whether the card appears as a working contactless card, and then that it doesn't appear on the current blacklist.

The official terminology is "[Not] Authorised For Travel". Technically this is still the only explanation which revenue staff are allowed to give when a customer asks what's happened to a card which is on the hotlist. The hotlist of cards Not Authorised For Travel is downloaded periodically (at fixed intervals, when mobile signal permits) to Revenue Inspection Devices.