RMT dispute on Merseyrail

[craigybagel]

Merseyrail guards aren't currently very visible. In the last 6 months I've seen one guard operate the doors from the passenger compartment. That's it, out of 50 odd journeys of ~15 minutes duration one whole guard ventured outside of their cab.

Compare that to Northern/TPE/Virgin where you will have your ticket checked at least once during a journey and see the guard doing it for others getting on later. The Merseyrail guards sold their revenue duties for a better pay-deal and sealed their own fate.

Not from my experience. I sometimes manage 50 minutes on a Northern service without seeing a guard, while it's normal to see a guard 3 or 4 times on a train between Chester and Birkenhead even if they don't check tickets. On Virgin you can get from Euston to Crewe without seeing a guard even if there's plenty of staff not trained as guards visible.

On Merseyrail, as has been pointed out already, the guards aren't allowed ​to do dispatch anywhere but in their cabs in the tunnel sections, so if you're traveling in those sections you'll never see them.

On Northern, as I'm sure JCollins is well aware, they're​ not allowed dispatch from the front, or even be in the front unit of a multiple unit formation if there are no corridor connections. Given Northern have never bothered putting extra door panels in except on 319s, it effectively keeps their guards on most of their fleet (Diesel services especially) tied to a bungee cord to the back cab.

 

[northwichcat]

Being 6' 4" and built like the proverbial, I'm more concerned about inadvertently scaring other people than being scared (I'm actually totally non-violent, last time I hit someone in anger I was aged 11, but the thing is people don't know that just from appearance). But even so, I think people do assume that because somebody gets mugged once in a while there's going to be a mugger behind every corner. Of course, it's sensible to plan in your head what you'll do if there is (that's the sort of thing being streetwise is about), but in all likelihood you'll never have to execute that plan.

OTOH, I can see how I would think differently if I was a 5 foot woman (it shouldn't be sexist, but there is of course a type of attack that is a whole lot less likely to happen to a male - fear of sexual attack is something men often find it difficult to understand because, while male rape does occur, it is not very common).

Other passengers tend to be more protective towards passengers who appear to be vulnerable e.g. a 5 ft woman opposed to a 6 ft 4 man. However, there's always some news stories about criminals who prey on someone who appears to be vulnerable but isn't e.g. one who tried to steal from a saloon when there was only one female staff member present - who was a black belt in karate, or the one who tried to steal from a woman sunbathing on the beach who was with her friend - a police officer.

 

[urbophile]

I'm most used to the Liverpool- Hunts Cross section of Merseyrail (though frequently use others). I haven't done a systematic check but the guard will almost always walk through the train at least once, and nearly always will operate the doors from one of the passenger doors rather than their own compartment.

 

[kw12]

Merseyrail is a perfectly safe system to travel on. It's got a much lower crime rate than the London Underground.

Some people try to stereotype Liverpool as being a crime capital, yet proportionally there's less crime in Liverpool than in 19 other cities in the UK including cities like Nottingham.

BTP publishes detailed station by station crime statistics across England, Scotland and Wales, including the London Underground. For each station, these stats (at http://crimemaps.btp.police.uk/) show, month by month, the number of (reported) crime and anti-social behaviour offences at the station and, separately, the number of crime and anti-social behaviour offences committed on trains and reported at the station. They also show, for the last twelve months for which data is published (currently February 2015 to January 2016), the average number of crimes per 100,000 passenger journeys at the station.

Some examples for a few stations selected at random from Merseyrail and elsewhere are:

(Per 100,000 journeys) . . . Station Crimes . . . On Trains
Birkenhead Central . . . . . . . . . . 1.54 . . . . . . . . 0.44
New Brighton . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0.66 . . . . . . . . 1.76
Formby . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1.25 . . . . . . . . 1.09
Aintree . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . 1.40 . . . . . . . . 0.00
Liverpool Central . . . . . . . . . . .. 1.15 . . . . . . . . 0.15
Lime Street Underground . . . . . . 1.16 . . . . . . . . 0.00
Lime Street mainline . . . . . . . . . 2.35 . . . . . . . . 0.93
Runcorn . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1.70 . . . . . . . . 4.25
Uxbridge . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . 0.69 . . . . . . . . 0.55
Cockfosters . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . 1.51 . . . . . . . . 2.91
Epping . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2.00 . . . . . . . . 0.77
Dagenham Heathway . . . . . . . . . 0.76 . . . . . . . . 0.34
Nottingham . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . 5.67 . . . . . . . . 1.67

 

[wingsoveryorks]

BTP publishes detailed station by station crime statistics across England, Scotland and Wales, including the London Underground. For each station, these stats (at http://crimemaps.btp.police.uk/) show, month by month, the number of (reported) crime and anti-social behaviour offences at the station and, separately, the number of crime and anti-social behaviour offences committed on trains and reported at the station. They also show, for the last twelve months for which data is published (currently February 2015 to January 2016), the average number of crimes per 100,000 passenger journeys at the station.

Some examples for a few stations selected at random from Merseyrail and elsewhere are:

(Per 100,000 journeys) . . . Station Crimes . . . On Trains
Birkenhead Central . . . . . . . . . . 1.54 . . . . . . . . 0.44
New Brighton . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0.66 . . . . . . . . 1.76
Formby . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1.25 . . . . . . . . 1.09
Aintree . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . 1.40 . . . . . . . . 0.00
Liverpool Central . . . . . . . . . . .. 1.15 . . . . . . . . 0.15
Lime Street Underground . . . . . . 1.16 . . . . . . . . 0.00
Lime Street mainline . . . . . . . . . 2.35 . . . . . . . . 0.93
Runcorn . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1.70 . . . . . . . . 4.25
Uxbridge . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . 0.69 . . . . . . . . 0.55
Cockfosters . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . 1.51 . . . . . . . . 2.91
Epping . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2.00 . . . . . . . . 0.77
Dagenham Heathway . . . . . . . . . 0.76 . . . . . . . . 0.34
Nottingham . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . 5.67 . . . . . . . . 1.67

As the saying goes. There are lies, damn lies, and statistics. I honestly from experience would not believe any of those figures are accurate. A lot of crimes go unreported, I mean a lot as well.
A lot of railway staff are so used to abuse that they don't report that either. It all adds up to a problem for the BTP. Because as they themselves say, we cannot target crime if it goes unreported. Crime fighting is intelligence led, and if people don't report, there's no intelligence to lead.

 

[danbarnstall]

As the saying goes. There are lies, damn lies, and statistics. I honestly from experience would not believe any of those figures are accurate. A lot of crimes go unreported, I mean a lot as well.
A lot of railway staff are so used to abuse that they don't report that either. It all adds up to a problem for the BTP. Because as they themselves say, we cannot target crime if it goes unreported. Crime fighting is intelligence led, and if people don't report, there's no intelligence to lead.

Anti social behaviour rather than crime is a bigger problem from travelling experience on Merseyrail. Things like loud drunken louts, or over excited teenagers not respecting their surroundings tend to be an issue. As a traveller I remain quiet but countless times a Guard has stepped in to ease situations. Because of my job I sometimes travel late at night (9, 10 or 11 o'clock) so I guess I am more likely to encounter behaviour like this.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

Anti social behaviour rather than crime is a bigger problem from travelling experience on Merseyrail. Things like loud drunken louts, or over excited teenagers not respecting their surroundings tend to be an issue. As a traveller I remain quiet but countless times a Guard has stepped in to ease situations. Because of my job I sometimes travel late at night (9, 10 or 11 o'clock) so I guess I am more likely to encounter behaviour like this.

It is exactly that situation that the average passenger finds frightening. But you'll never find the actions of the guards in these situations appearing on the RSSB's list of reasons to keep them.

Society gets what society wants.

 

[AlterEgo]

It is exactly that situation that the average passenger finds frightening. But you'll never find the actions of the guards in these situations appearing on the RSSB's list of reasons to keep them.

Society gets what society wants.

The thing is, according to the NPS passengers didn't rate LO as less safe when the guards went, and satisfaction at staff availability went up, as they increased station staff presence. That's because they invested in walk-through stock and put staff on stations. Merseyrail are creating 60 jobs with the intention of deploying those staff at key locations, plus there'll be a presence on the train anyway.

 

[razor89]

The thing is, according to the NPS passengers didn't rate LO as less safe when the guards went, and satisfaction at staff availability went up, as they increased station staff presence. That's because they invested in walk-through stock and put staff on stations. Merseyrail are creating 60 jobs with the intention of deploying those staff at key locations, plus there'll be a presence on the train anyway.

It's a bit misleading to suggest they're 'creating' 60 jobs. Really they're removing 220 guards jobs and replacing with 60 on board customer care jobs. On most trains the only 'presence' will be the driver.

 

[fowler9]

The thing is, according to the NPS passengers didn't rate LO as less safe when the guards went, and satisfaction at staff availability went up, as they increased station staff presence. That's because they invested in walk-through stock and put staff on stations. Merseyrail are creating 60 jobs with the intention of deploying those staff at key locations, plus there'll be a presence on the train anyway.

You should get a job as a government spin doctor. "Creating 60 jobs"?????

 

[313103]

The thing is, according to the NPS passengers didn't rate LO as less safe when the guards went, and satisfaction at staff availability went up, as they increased station staff presence. That's because they invested in walk-through stock and put staff on stations. Merseyrail are creating 60 jobs with the intention of deploying those staff at key locations, plus there'll be a presence on the train anyway.

Actually not very many of the London Overground Guards found themselves on stations as all stations on London Overground were manned to start with. So to say station presence increased is very misleading, those Guards who opted to stay (about one third ) were put in roving teams to go to hot spots during disruption or special events, they were also only given a Monday to Friday roster (that may of changed in the intervening years since i left).

Less then half of the 148 Guards employed with London Overground when DOO was announced actually stayed, about 55 left through voluntary redundancy, 11 retired, about 15 were lucky enough to pass their drivers exams, the rest were put in this made up for DOO grade.

It is also misleading to say Merseyrail are creating 60 jobs, but when around 250 are being made surplus to requirements that is a massive net deficit of actual staff. But yes you are right there will be a staff presence on every train, as every train has driver so your correct there.

 

[Goldfish62]

The thing is, according to the NPS passengers didn't rate LO as less safe when the guards went, and satisfaction at staff availability went up, as they increased station staff presence. That's because they invested in walk-through stock and put staff on stations. Merseyrail are creating 60 jobs with the intention of deploying those staff at key locations, plus there'll be a presence on the train anyway.

In Silverlink days the North London line was awful to travel on. It felt unsafe at any time of day. As part of LO it's now got a completely different feel to it and I'll happily use it at any time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On Northern, as I'm sure JCollins is well aware, they're​ not allowed dispatch from the front, or even be in the front unit of a multiple unit formation if there are no corridor connections. Given Northern have never bothered putting extra door panels in except on 319s, it effectively keeps their guards on most of their fleet (Diesel services especially) tied to a bungee cord to the back cab.

Why do they have that rule? Some other TOCs don't, and completely unstaffed units are common in DOO areas, even in the case of Class 319s without corridor connections.

 

[AlterEgo]

You should get a job as a government spin doctor. "Creating 60 jobs"?????

Can you tell me how many people they're firing?

 

[Bletchleyite]

In Silverlink days the North London line was awful to travel on. It felt unsafe at any time of day. As part of LO it's now got a completely different feel to it and I'll happily use it at any time.

And (because it's mostly psychological) that involved nice, new rolling stock and nicer stations. And staffed stations - people feel much more vulnerable there than on the train.

 

[313103]

And (because it's mostly psychological) that involved nice, new rolling stock and nicer stations. And staffed stations - people feel much more vulnerable there than on the train.

I get the impression that when I hear people saying it was unsafe (whether it was actual or psychological) it was in some way the guards fault. Perhaps if you look at National Expresses history over this period there was a distinct lack of spending in fact very minimal amount was spent on the metro route, and of course Silverlink paid there staff lower then any other toc in London and were near the bottom when compared to tocs around the country.

When the mayor took over running the company money was thrown at it, hence why you got new trains, all stations staffed, most if not all stations refurbished, even I would think it is safer now then it was then.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I get the impression that when I hear people saying it was unsafe (whether it was actual or psychological) it was in some way the guards fault.

I don't think they were so much saying that as pointing out that a DOO railway can be and feel safe. Given how often such trains stop, I can certainly see that station staff may actually be more significant than guards in promoting a feeling of safety.

Indeed, to compare another mode of transport, buses can feel unsafe in certain locations (even if they in fact aren't) because someone could just jump on from outside with little barrier to entry and cause trouble, not having to pass a ticket barrier or similar first. The lack of a conductor doesn't really contribute to this.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

I don't think they were so much saying that as pointing out that a DOO railway can be and feel safe. Given how often such trains stop, I can certainly see that station staff may actually be more significant than guards in promoting a feeling of safety.

Indeed, to compare another mode of transport, buses can feel unsafe in certain locations (even if they in fact aren't) because someone could just jump on from outside with little barrier to entry and cause trouble, not having to pass a ticket barrier or similar first. The lack of a conductor doesn't really contribute to this.

Monday night. I had a woman at a station waiting for the next train, ask if she could travel on mine to a busier station because she felt unsafe. I had a chat with her when she got on to reassure her, but it is a classic example of how people perceive their surroundings, rightly or wrongly. Never underestimate the presence of rail staff, No staff will make the railway a very unattractive proposition at night for many, especially women.

 

[muz379]

Anti social behaviour rather than crime is a bigger problem from travelling experience on Merseyrail. Things like loud drunken louts, or over excited teenagers not respecting their surroundings tend to be an issue. As a traveller I remain quiet but countless times a Guard has stepped in to ease situations. Because of my job I sometimes travel late at night (9, 10 or 11 o'clock) so I guess I am more likely to encounter behaviour like this.

And I would be willing to bet the vast majority of passengers . And probably a lot of guards or by-law enforcement officers do not bother reporting behaviour like that because it is so routine . Or whilst it has made them uncomfortable they are fine once they get off the train .

I use metrolink sometimes and on the line I use majority of the time at some point during my journey there will be a gang of kids who get on being rowdy , smoking weed , generally engaging in ASB . I never bother reporting this to metrolink etc because it wont stop it happening right there and then , and by the time I have got off the tram and got home something else in life has taken over and im not that outraged or uncomfortable with it that I care anymore .

The problem with these gangs usually comes when a member of the public challenges them . And then it goes from simple ASB to a more serious matter . Because the kids are so used to there being no staff presence on the metrolink they get cockier as time goes on , so when someone does dare challenge them they think they can do what they like .

 

[PHILIPE]

Monday night. I had a woman at a station waiting for the next train, ask if she could travel on mine to a busier station because she felt unsafe. I had a chat with her when she got on to reassure her, but it is a classic example of how people perceive their surroundings, rightly or wrongly. Never underestimate the presence of rail staff, No staff will make the railway a very unattractive proposition at night for many, especially women.

Wonder if Wilkinson from the DFT would like to travel on some of the late night trains.

 

[AlterEgo]

Wonder if Wilkinson from the DFT would like to travel on some of the late night trains.

He will be fine, I think the late night trains in Vienna are probably okay.

 

[fowler9]

Can you tell me how many people they're firing?

Mate you really should get a job as a government spin doctor if you think that replacing people who retire or move on to other jobs is the same as job creation. Did you even read what you typed? "Yes indeed, we created jobs by allowing these people to leave employment, otherwise it would be called slavery".

 

[InOban]

Do none of these trains have CCTV?

 

[Goldfish62]

And (because it's mostly psychological) that involved nice, new rolling stock and nicer stations. And staffed stations - people feel much more vulnerable there than on the train.

Exactly. If I had to chose between staff on trains or stations it would be stations.

 

[Goldfish62]

I get the impression that when I hear people saying it was unsafe (whether it was actual or psychological) it was in some way the guards fault.

I'd be interested to know your rationale for your somewhat left field argument. How can the guards be responsible for lack of investment in the railway?

 

[AlterEgo]

Mate you really should get a job as a government spin doctor if you think that replacing people who retire or move on to other jobs is the same as job creation. Did you even read what you typed? "Yes indeed, we created jobs by allowing these people to leave employment, otherwise it would be called slavery".

So when you create a new position, that doesn't create jobs? I wasn't on about net job creation on a regional or national level.

In any case, Merseyrail are a TOC, and not a job creation or retention scheme, so it hardly matters anyway. The guards will have seen this coming years off, and hopefully - if they don't fancy the new regime - will have invested in themselves over the last few years to ensure that if they do leave the railway, they'll be able to secure another job on similar pay and terms.

I'm a bit sick of moaning about jobs to be honest. Nobody has a right to a job, a job must be necessary. The discussion should centre on whether guards are necessary. On Merseyrail, no, they won't be, when the new trains arrive.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Exactly. If I had to chose between staff on trains or stations it would be stations.

And probably best of all platform staff. Someone behind the glass at a very remote ticket office (as at some Merseyrail stations, for example) doesn't offer as much benefit, though someone feeling uncomfortable can I suppose wait in the ticket office until a minute or two before the train so there *is* a benefit.

 

[urbophile]

Nobody has a right to a job

:-x!?

That would kickstart a whole new thread on its own.

 

[Bletchleyite]

:-x!?

It's true. Nobody has a right to a job in a capitalist society, that much is a fact. And if you think that should change, there are better ways of achieving it than the railway - there are many things that aren't done that would be of greater benefit to society than railway guards if it is felt that a job-creation exercise would be beneficial.

 

[LowLevel]

7Something that will hopefully change as a perception in the near future. Not much point me participating in society if it won't guarantee me, as a hard working and willing individual, a living. As a rather large fellow with some wits about him why shouldn't I therefore just possess things instead, much like many folk who own things like landed estates' ancestors did at some point in the past. I do wish people would stop trotting out the 'this is how it is' argument as if they've learned nothing from the guillotine or the Third Reich.

Here's a hint - if it stops working for the majority, which in terms of 'nobody has a guarantee of anything' and automation at some point it will do, things may get unpleasant because the only point to society is if it works mutually for everyone. With your EDL and other unsavoury groups sniffing around it doesn't take much imagination.

Wake up for goodness sake.

As long as society makes have a decent fulfilling life dependent on paid employment, it should be a reasonable expectation of the participants in said society providing they're willing to pull their weight, not something to have if they're lucky.

Someone who wasn't me built a system where I effectively have to have a debt pile to have somewhere to live and a job to maintain it.