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Wales & Borders Franchise Consultation

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Philip

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The 185s are medium-distance trains yes, but I would argue that they are medium-distance STOPPING trains, not for use on the principal fast service on a given route. That's why Llandudno works, because it is all-stops to Chester and there are (or could/should be) faster trains between Chester and Llandudno Junction (carrying on the Holyhead/Bangor/Caernarfon) using a higher-standard of rolling stock (175s or LHCS).



I don't think that's sensible at all, since you cannot run from Wrexham to Birmingham with anything other than ETCS equiped 158s unless you divert Cambrian services to Crewe instead of Birmingham or terminate them at Shrewsbury. Also, I think the Manchester - North Wales services should be fasts, in the hands of 175s or LHCS, with the Llandudno stoppers going to Liverpool instead (those could be 185s). The only way of getting Wrexham to Liverpool via the Halton Curve (which is probably a good idea) is a Cardiff to Liverpool every two hours (unless the Birmingham-Wrexham-Holyhead services are diverted to run Birmingham-Wrexham-Liverpool, but that's more 158s that are then unavailable for the Cambrian).

I can't see what is wrong with using 185s on fast services, at least where there are no speed restrictions, such as North Wales. The DfT deemed them suitable for the Scotland services and whilst that was perhaps not an ideal situation, they are quite clearly thought of as suitable for express and fairly distance work. They have scored well in passenger surveys in the past too.
 
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The Class 185s would have to stay around Manchester - so either Cardiff to Manchester or North Wales to Manchester due to servicing.

As mentioned above if they are needed for Transpennine services later in the franchise hey may as wwell stay there.

For ATW its looking like either D Trains, Class 319 Flex or Pacers staying on posts 2020 with PRM derogations.
 

40129

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As said above by Rhydgaled, transferring the Shrewsbury - Crewe service to LM would make sense as it runs entirely within England and therefore should be operated with a TOC that is accountable to Westminster not Caerdydd. Also, attsching it to the New Street - Shrewsbury service could potentislly improve rolling stock utilisation - LM trains typicaslly sit in Shrewsbury for 35 mins. It would also provide a potentially useful public transport link netween North Shropshire and Telford. Buses north of Telford are pretty much non-existent iirc)

IRO diverting the New Street - Holyhead service to Liverpool via the Halton curve, I agree that this would open up potentially useful new journey opportunities by providing a through service from Shropshire to Merseyside. Not sure why using a cl-158 on such a service would be a problem as the round trip time from Chester to Liverpool would surely be less than from Chester to Holyhead
 
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Rhydgaled

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The Liverpool-Wrexham-Birmingham sounds a good idea, would there be space for a half-hourly service between Chester and Shrewsbury?
Not without a very carefully constructed timetable.
The remaining single track section and long signal spacing don't help.

And the timetable at both ends is constrained by the clockface times on other routes.
The fixed timings on other routes are a big problem. If the S.Wales-Manchester workings and Birmingham-Wrexham both remain at the same times it is not possible to provide a half-hourly service between Cardiff and Shrewsbury which alternates between Manchester and Wrexham services. The attached shows how I think you could even run a 20-minute interval service between Chester and Shrewsbury (via Wrexham) if it were a standalone shuttle (although the single-line occupancy is a little tight). It also shows my attempt at timetabling roughly half-hourly services on the whole of the marches route; I was forced to send some Cardiff/Shrewsbury-Chester services via Crewe (rather than giving Crewe-Shrewsbury local calls entirely to LM), and I failed to allow for a decent Heart Of Wales service in between Craven Arms and Shrewsbury. I hope the new TOC can come up with a way of removing some of the constraints to make a better timetable than I've been able to produce.

We still don't know how the "hourly Holyhead-Cardiff" is going to be pathed.
I can't see how it can be, unless it runs via Crewe every two hours northbound, kills off the Birmingham-Wrexham through services or doesn't make a neat pattern with the Manchesters south of Shrewsbury.

I can't see what is wrong with using 185s on fast services
Because end-door stock can provide a better interior and dwell times are much less of a problem on fast services. Where you have frequent stops is where you need to sacrifice comfort a bit to keep the dwell times down (using 'doors at thirds'); but hopefully because it's a stopper passengers won't be making particularly long journeys on it. Journey length (despite frequent stops) is why the Heart Of Wales and similar routes should be at least regional stock (eg. 156s) rather than something with 'doors at thirds'.
 

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Rhydgaled

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IRO diverting the New Street - Holyhead service to Liverpool via the Halton curve, I agree that this would open up potentially useful new journey opportunities by providing a through service from Shropshire to Merseyside. Not sure why using a cl-158 on such a service would be a problem as the round trip time from Chester to Liverpool would surely be less than from Chester to Holyhead
The turnround time at Chester for the Birmingham-Wrexham-Chester services would only be 16 minutes at most if you stopped them running to Holyhead. Therefore, you cannot really run beyond Chester without using more ETCS 158s away from the Cambrian. I THINK an hourly Birmingham-Aberystwyth with a portion for Pwllheli every two hours and for Chester in the others can be done with 16 diagrams. That's every service 4-car between Shrewsbury and Birmingham (and as far as Machynlleth every two hours), but there are comments that it needs to be 6-car at times, so I'm not sure extra units can be spared to run the current Birmingham-Wrexham services beyond Chester (I would say that they should terminate at Wrexham if it would save any units, but it wouldn't).
 
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craigybagel

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The 185s are medium-distance trains yes, but I would argue that they are medium-distance STOPPING trains, not for use on the principal fast service on a given route. That's why Llandudno works, because it is all-stops to Chester and there are (or could/should be) faster trains between Chester and Llandudno Junction (carrying on the Holyhead/Bangor/Caernarfon) using a higher-standard of rolling stock (175s or LHCS).

Two of routes I suggested (Wrexham-Bidston and Chester-Shrewsbury) are borderline cases where I might consider a 150 suitable, and the same applies to Crewe-Shrewsbury if it was a standalone operation not running through to Birmingham or the HOWL. The others are all medium-distance (over an hour) meaning 150s are not suitable (they are, as Neil Williams put it in the ATW Pacer replacements topic " laid out for dwarves"). The high-power of the 185s is perhaps overkill though; Turbostars (with decent legroom, not XC's which are pretty terrible I seem to recall) would probably be more-appropriate.

Turbostars and 185s are both overkill. These are local routes, where most people are only making short journeys. Save these nicer trains for routes where they're actually needed.

First, it is an England-only route, and since they don't elect AMs to Cardiff Bay giving the service to an English TOC could help with accountability. I'm also suggesting that LM take full responsibility for ALL stations between Crewe and Shrewsbury, running an hourly service and removing the stops at Nantwich, Whitchurch and Wem from the W&B Manchester services. Also, if LM had it they could provide a through service to/from Birmingham (though whether that would be attractive is debatable)

As said above by Rhydgaled, transferring the Shrewsbury - Crewe service to LM would make sense as it runs entirely within England and therefore should be operated with a TOC that is accountable to Westminster not Caerdydd. Also, attsching it to the New Street - Shrewsbury service could potentislly improve rolling stock utilisation - LM trains typicaslly sit in Shrewsbury for 35 mins. It would also provide a potentially useful public transport link netween North Shropshire and Telford. Buses north of Telford are pretty much non-existent iirc)

I accept the issue of a Welsh based TOC running a service entirely in England. However, surely the DFT aren't going to wash their hands of the route completely and leave it to Cardiff without any oversight? Given the issue was looked at before and it was decided it was best to keep the franchise boundaries as is, presumably some kind of safeguard has been agreed on, or at least it's been decided that the issues of splitting that route off are greater than the risks of leaving things as is.

In terms of the advantages and disadvantages to the split. First of all you'd have an upheaval of traincrew - at the moment 3 different depots are involved in working the shuttle (and until recently a 4th). Given LM don't have enough traincrew to run their own services as it is either some ATW staff would need to be TUPEd across, or you'd need to spend a fortune training LM staff on the route. In return for that, what do you gain? The turnarounds are already very tight, and with the the through running from the Heart of Wales line (which incidentally inquire popular and would be lost if the route went to LM) you'd struggle to get any better fleet utilisation out of it. You could run it through to Birmingham, but that's a rather limited market (from what I've seen Manchester is much more in demand).

Granted I have a bias - it's one of the routes I work and I don't want to see it transferred to LM - but as someone who knows the route pretty intimately I fail to see any advantages in transferring it.
 

Philip

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Because end-door stock can provide a better interior and dwell times are much less of a problem on fast services. Where you have frequent stops is where you need to sacrifice comfort a bit to keep the dwell times down (using 'doors at thirds'); but hopefully because it's a stopper passengers won't be making particularly long journeys on it. Journey length (despite frequent stops) is why the Heart Of Wales and similar routes should be at least regional stock (eg. 156s) rather than something with 'doors at thirds'.

Providing the seat is comfy and the legroom good (which is true in both cases on 185), then who cares whether the doors are in the saloon? It's not like the doors are open for long and in fact I've used 185s many times on short and long hops where I've been standing near the doors and I honestly can't remember the weather ever making things unpleasant inside the train. I doubt if most passengers are bothered either. What may annoy them though is having to queue in the aisle on a 158 for a minute or more whilst waiting to alight from a busy train. That generally doesn't happen on 185s because of the door layout and large open space around the doors and it's a big advantage, whether it's on a stopping service or an express.
 

Gareth Marston

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Originally Posted by LNW-GW Joint View Post
We still don't know how the "hourly Holyhead-Cardiff" is going to be pathed.
I can't see how it can be, unless it runs via Crewe every two hours northbound, kills off the Birmingham-Wrexham through services or doesn't make a neat pattern with the Manchesters south of Shrewsbury.

Its a destructive service put forward by people who don't understand how the railway or geography/travel patterns works.
 

Gareth Marston

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I don't think that's sensible at all, since you cannot run from Wrexham to Birmingham with anything other than ETCS equiped 158s unless you divert Cambrian services to Crewe instead of Birmingham or terminate them at Shrewsbury. Also, I think the Manchester - North Wales services should be fasts, in the hands of 175s or LHCS, with the Llandudno stoppers going to Liverpool instead (those could be 185s). The only way of getting Wrexham to Liverpool via the Halton Curve (which is probably a good idea) is a Cardiff to Liverpool every two hours (unless the Birmingham-Wrexham-Holyhead services are diverted to run Birmingham-Wrexham-Liverpool, but that's more 158s that are then unavailable for the Cambrian).

It would work if they were on separate diagrams. In Central Trains days there use to be 2 semi fast tph between Birmingham and Shrewsbury one could be for Cambrian and the other for Liverpool. It shows what a nonsense the Wales and Border franchise is as its created an artificial boundary that didn't exist naturally in the railway preventing this, Birmingham - Shrewsbury is now one path for the Wales and Border franchise the other for the West Midland one - sub optimal solutions for Shropshire/NE Wales.

We have to remember the franchise only exists because of needing a sop to Welsh politicians in the early 2000's by Tony Blair's Government because of all the whining about Cardiff Bay not having the same Powers as Holyrood. Its nothing to do with passengers or connection communities.
 

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gareth950

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So lets look at all the options that have been proposed for the Valley Lines so far:

Rolling stock
Bi-mode DEMU's: 319 Flex / new build
DMUs: D-trains / 150/2s / e-Pacers / new build
Trams: Pure electric / bi-mode tram-trains / hand-me-downs from elsewhere (ex-DLR stock anyone?)
Battery powered trams / trains / hybrids
Hydrogen trains / trams

Infrastructure:
Heavy rail electrification throughout (inc. to Barry and Vale of Glamorgan) EMUs everywhere
Heavy rail electrification north of Queen St / DMUs or Bi-modes to Barry, VOG, City Line
Light rail electrification north of Queen St / DMUs to Barry, VOG, City Line

Electrify 'bits' of the Valley lines / battery trains everywhere else
Battery trains running everywhere

And DFT is now saying it won't guarantee it's £125m towards electrification, which is a tiny amount anyway in the scheme of things, but still, it matters.

How has the 'engagement with industry to come up with ideas' gone then? Have a clear plan now do we? :roll:

This mess makes the original business case for electrification of the entire Valleys and Vale of Glamorgan network in 2012/13 using cascaded 313s / 315s, with new build EMUs to follow, look like a dream.
 
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daikilo

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I thought the four franchise bidders were currently drawing up specifications for rolling stock? Presumably they are doing so under the impression that it'll be electric in the valleys and diesel elsewhere?

The Welsh Govt really do seem to have ****ed this up quite something special!

The bidders are/have presumably creating/ed bids in line with the specification. If the specification is to change then presumably the cut-off date for bids will do likewise.

My personal opinion/desire is that the core network will remain heavy rail and that additional routes may be tram-train. If the WG intent is a tram system for the core then they are dilusional given the closure time and the future importance of cross-Cardiff traffic. Cardiff and the valleys are very different from Manchester.
 
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Gareth Marston

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I thought the four franchise bidders were currently drawing up specifications for rolling stock? Presumably they are doing so under the impression that it'll be electric in the valleys and diesel elsewhere?

The Welsh Govt really do seem to have ****ed this up quite something special!

They can't make their mind up how indecisive they want to be:p
 

tomuk

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The bidders are/have presumably creating/ed bids in line with the specification. If the specification is to change then presumably the cut-off date for bids will do likewise.

There is no specification as such the procurement is being made using Competitive Dialogue Procurement. (Not used in rail before).

The Welsh Government has issued a policy document

http://gov.wales/docs/det/publications/170301-policy-priorities-en.pdf

It is for the four bidders to come up with their own spec to meet these 'outputs' within the funding the WG indicates is available.

The WG will then select the best spec and ask the four bidders to bid against it.

Don't forget that WG is looking for an ODP not a franchisee.

The Operator and Development Partner will

  • Run services as a concession - (Why? Coz that is what TFL do and they're great.)
  • Takeover maintaining core valley lines infrastructure (Why? Coz NR are rubbish)
  • Electrify/Build/Convert to Hyperloop core valley lines (Why? Coz NR are rubbish)

This all to run the non valley lines as is, 4tph on the valleys, and a few 'nicer' trains with sockets and wifi:roll:
 

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I would rely on the battery technology. When I saw it in use, it operated in one direction and charged the battery in the opposite direction, this applied for a few trips per day off peak. A start but hardly decisive in my book. I think the Class 230 will be a safer bet at this time maybe followed by the Class 319.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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There is no specification as such the procurement is being made using Competitive Dialogue Procurement. (Not used in rail before).

It could be a year before anything concrete emerges, even if we know the winning "development partner" well beforehand.
Really, it would be better to split the bid into Metro and The Rest and have different bids.
The Valleys project could well completely eclipse the rest of the W&B franchise if the WG is not careful.
 

gareth950

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It could be a year before anything concrete emerges, even if we know the winning "development partner" well beforehand.
Really, it would be better to split the bid into Metro and The Rest and have different bids.

The Valleys project could well completely eclipse the rest of the W&B franchise if the WG is not careful.

I'd say that's happened already. I'm sure there are less complicated ways to get 4tph from each of Treherbert, Aberdare and Merthyr Tydfil.
Bargoed already has 4tph, Bargoed - Rhymney could get 4tph by doubling the line/putting in more loops. Ebbw Vale and Maesteg are not part of the hallowed 'Core' valley lines.
Ebbw Vale is crying out to be doubled all the way up the valley and have a direct link to Newport, and should have been built as such when it was originally re-opened in 2008. As usual it was done on the cheap.

The line to Bridgend via the Vale seems to have been forgotten completely with it's current 1tph.
 
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Gareth Marston

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Lets face it is sensible world the Valleys would have been wired ages ago and the debate now should be focusing on which type of new heavy EMU shall we have, what type of work do we need to do to increase frequency.

Instead the Welsh Government is tying itself in knots over "alternatives" rather than just getting on with the job. Wire what we have got and get the EMU's running we can then look at Light Rail for the extensions.
 

Dai Corner

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Lets face it is sensible world the Valleys would have been wired ages ago and the debate now should be focusing on which type of new heavy EMU shall we have, what type of work do we need to do to increase frequency.

Instead the Welsh Government is tying itself in knots over "alternatives" rather than just getting on with the job. Wire what we have got and get the EMU's running we can then look at Light Rail for the extensions.

It all reminds me of going shopping with my ex. She'd have no idea what she wanted and visit every shop in town until she saw something she liked. Even then we'd often have to go back the following week and change it for something else. I would know what I needed to buy and where I could get it at a good price. :lol:
 

Gareth Marston

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It all reminds me of going shopping with my ex. She'd have no idea what she wanted and visit every shop in town until she saw something she liked. Even then we'd often have to go back the following week and change it for something else. I would know what I needed to buy and where I could get it at a good price. :lol:

Competitive Dialogue is not going to produce anything different in concept to what the average trainspotter at central station could have told them a decade ago.

Either
Increase frequencies on (select line) or not.
and
Stay Diesel
Wires up and EMU
Turn the lot into Light Rail
Pretend theirs a fantasy propulsion source
 

gareth950

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Lets face it is sensible world the Valleys would have been wired ages ago and the debate now should be focusing on which type of new heavy EMU shall we have, what type of work do we need to do to increase frequency.

Instead the Welsh Government is tying itself in knots over "alternatives" rather than just getting on with the job. Wire what we have got and get the EMU's running we can then look at Light Rail for the extensions.

If only there was 'like' button on this forum!

What I find the most ironic about this whole farce is that a Labour Welsh Govt wants to take the upgrade and maintenance of the valley lines OFF it's UK nationalised owner and hand it to a private, which will most likely be owned by a foreign nation state, ODP! You couldn't make any of this stuff up!

And to think this new franchise will be locked in for another 15 years. Will it be got right this time? :(
 
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Rhydgaled

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It would work if they were on separate diagrams. In Central Trains days there use to be 2 semi fast tph between Birmingham and Shrewsbury one could be for Cambrian and the other for Liverpool. It shows what a nonsense the Wales and Border franchise is as its created an artificial boundary that didn't exist naturally in the railway preventing this, Birmingham - Shrewsbury is now one path for the Wales and Border franchise the other for the West Midland one - sub optimal solutions for Shropshire/NE Wales.
Either the Cambrian services or the Birmingham-Wrexham-Liverpool ones would have to be the stopper between Shrewsbury and Birmingham in that case though, whereas Wrexham and Aberystwyth can both have fast through trains to Birmingham if they use ETCS 158s and join/split at Shrewsbury.

Lets face it is sensible world the Valleys would have been wired ages ago and the debate now should be focusing on which type of new heavy EMU shall we have, what type of work do we need to do to increase frequency.
No, the debate should be 707, 458 or 379; there's enough reasonably-new EMUs being cascaded in the next 5 years or so that new build probably isn't needed.

Instead the Welsh Government is tying itself in knots over "alternatives" rather than just getting on with the job. Wire what we have got and get the EMU's running we can then look at Light Rail for the extensions.
The only question that needs to be asked is whether Coryton, Cardiff Bay and maybe Penarth should be converted to light-rail. If so, then a choice needs to be made regarding how (or if) it integrates with the rest of the network. There's no way of doing that without either tram-train or a central street-running tram section.
 

Morgsie

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This Contract provides services in England yet the decisions are made in Cardiff which begs the question does England have some say in the decision-making process and I notice this thread is about a Consultation so I presume English Local Authorities and other organisation affected by the services will be contributing?

(I struggled wording this and hope it makes sense)
 

WelshBluebird

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This Contract provides services in England yet the decisions are made in Cardiff which begs the question does England have some say in the decision-making process and I notice this thread is about a Consultation so I presume English Local Authorities and other organisation affected by the services will be contributing?

(I struggled wording this and hope it makes sense)

Guess it makes a difference from decisions affecting Wales being made in England :lol:
 

northwichcat

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What I find the most ironic about this whole farce is that a Labour Welsh Govt wants to take the upgrade and maintenance of the valley lines OFF it's UK nationalised owner and hand it to a private, which will most likely be owned by a foreign nation state, ODP! You couldn't make any of this stuff up!

There was talk of Labour controlled Merseytravel wanting Merseyrail to take over infrastructure from Network Rail as well.
 

northwichcat

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Guess it makes a difference from decisions affecting Wales being made in England :lol:

Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland all have elected MPs in Westminster, who are allowed to be involved in any decision made there affecting their country.

As the Wales & Borders franchise serves the Tatton constituency is George Osborne welcome to turn up in Cardiff for sessions on the new rail franchise? (Not that he'd have time with all his other jobs ;))
 
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