Wales & Borders Franchise Consultation

[Chester1]

A focus on doors and aligning seats with windows is something that enthusiasts care about much more than regular passengers. Doubled up 185s would be OK for W&B, my objection to them is purely cost if it is possible to steal 158s from other franchises. If they were semi permanently doubled up they could be fitted with 1 coach all first class and 2 standard + 3 standard. With a lack of catering facilties and no previous first class it would be better as a Chiltern style business zone. If they had to be run single there would then be no refunds required for declassifying the coach.

 

[gareth950]

I think we can take it for granted that unless something radical comes up in the new franchise (ie light rail) then there is going to be a delay on valleys electrification, if it even goes ahead at all.

If that's the case, D-trains would become Mark II Pacers, ending up far out staying their welcome. The evidence Porterbrook gave to the WAG committee yesterday sees the most sensible option. Flex 319s to cover for 150/2s whilst they are away getting mods, with 150/2s getting a lease of at least another 5 years to cover the cost.

 

[Gareth Marston]

A trial has been agreed in the West Midlands but Vivarail haven't delivered the product for the trial.

exactly my point No successful trial = no orders. Why do people keep thinking their an option?

 

[Bungle965]

exactly my point No successful trial = no orders. Why do people keep thinking their an option?

I may be a bit cynical here but the 319Flex have not even been out on test yet, there is not guarantee that they are going to work well, and yet Northern and perhaps now Arriva Trains Wales (Or whoever takes over the franchise) are relaying on these unproven units to work as otherwise I think it would be a reasonable assumption to say that they are stuffed.
Sam

 

[WelshBluebird]

A focus on doors and aligning seats with windows is something that enthusiasts care about much more than regular passengers.

I agree with you about windows. Not sure about doors. Certainly I have heard some of my "normal" friends complain about doors letting in the cold on 150's etc where that would be avoiding on 158's and the like.

 

[absolutelymilk]

WiFi on 153s and Pacers is pretty pointless; there's not enough legroom to use a laptop and no power points to keep a laptop running if the battery runs out either. Ok, there's a few (4?) table bays on a 153 but the number of pepole able to benifit is pretty small. Gerald probably has better legroom (I've only used it once since mrk3s replaced mrk2s, and that was in 1st class) so might be worth putting WiFi on that esspecially if the equipment can be moved onto whatever stock replaces the mrk3s for 2020.

Lots of people (myself included) use phones and tablets on the train in a relatively cramped space, or even when standing up!

 

[Doctor Fegg]

WiFi on 153s and Pacers is pretty pointless; there's not enough legroom to use a laptop and no power points to keep a laptop running if the battery runs out either.

Laptops now regularly have 10hr+ battery life - whether a £200 Chromebook or a £1200 MacBook - so that's not really an issue. I don't even bother taking the PSU for my laptop with me any more.

 

[northwichcat]

After watching the evidence given by Porterbrook to committee the following seems to be the current situation.

143 - To be Scrapped.

150/2 - Porterbrook plan to PRM them but would like a guarantee from WAG for their continued use by the new franchisee for at least five years

319 Flex - Primarily temporary cover to allow larger number of 150/2 to be taken out of service for PRM work to meet the PRM deadline.

Porterbrook seemed to be a lot more cautious about the 150/2 work then one would of expect. This is probably due to the 'flux' in the market due to SWT 458/707/455.

Surely the 319 Flex must be to replace Pacers. If it was just to allow a load of 150s to be taken out of service all at once prior to the end of 2019 then ATW would be able to use the 144s as cover given Northern are expected to hand them back in 2018. Then there's the cost of conversion to consider - if Porterbrook want a 5 year lease to justify PRM work on the 150s, they'll need an even longer lease to justify the cost of making 319s bi-mode trains.

 

[tomuk]

Surely the 319 Flex must be to replace Pacers. If it was just to allow a load of 150s to be taken out of service all at once prior to the end of 2019 then ATW would be able to use the 144s as cover given Northern are expected to hand them back in 2018. Then there's the cost of conversion to consider - if Porterbrook want a 5 year lease to justify PRM work on the 150s, they'll need an even longer lease to justify the cost of making 319s bi-mode trains.

From watching the committee it didn't seem Porterbrook were talking about a large number of them.

Maybe the plan is to use a 4/5 of them from a small pool shared with Northern based at Allerton. Using them on some of Conwy Valley, Wrexham-Bidston,Chester-Crewe shuttle and Crewe-Shrewsbury locals. This would free up 4/5 150/2 for PRM mods/refresh.

WG don't seem to have a clue their answer is either

a) The new franchise will fix it.

b) It's confidential due to competitive dialogue procurement.

c) It's the DFT's fault.

With mutterings of metro, light rail and batteries

 

[northwichcat]

Using them on some of Conwy Valley, Wrexham-Bidston,Chester-Crewe shuttle and Crewe-Shrewsbury locals. This would free up 4/5 150/2 for PRM mods/refresh.

Then they'd be relying on their diesel tank for 100% of the journey. It doesn't seem to make any sense to me.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Then they'd be relying on their diesel tank for 100% of the journey. It doesn't seem to make any sense to me.

There's a lot to be said for a decent number of bi-mode 319s, to be used in more or less any mode as lines are upgraded.
Going back a bit, BR's most valuable stock in the 1970s was the dual heat and/or dual braked coaches (Mk2c/d), which could work anywhere, with any loco.
This was while BR was trying to eliminate steam heating and vacuum brakes.
The 319 conversion also provides ready-made high-capacity 4-car stock on what are still basically 2-car DMU services being upgraded to electric operation.
That's if they get the design right, and get decent reliability out of the core electrics.

 

[Greybeard33]

There's a lot to be said for a decent number of bi-mode 319s, to be used in more or less any mode as lines are upgraded.
Going back a bit, BR's most valuable stock in the 1970s was the dual heat and/or dual braked coaches (Mk2c/d), which could work anywhere, with any loco.
This was while BR was trying to eliminate steam heating and vacuum brakes.
The 319 conversion also provides ready-made high-capacity 4-car stock on what are still basically 2-car DMU services being upgraded to electric operation.
That's if they get the design right, and get decent reliability out of the core electrics.

The reliability of Northern's 319s seems to be pretty dire at the moment. Adding newly-designed generator rafts, which are odds-on to have teething troubles, is only going to make matters worse. You will get a unit that is on both ends of the classic reliability "bathtub curve" at the same time!

 

[Rhydgaled]

it would be a lot easier to just split the services up, rather than sending trains designed for long distances trundling down the Milford Haven branch....

I too think they should split the services (and add in an hourly express Carmarthen-Cardiff via the Swansea District Line to maintain through services, keeping the Bridgend passengers off them by not calling so that a 2-car 175 may surfice).

I have very long legs. The 185s are perfectly comfortable for long journeys. That space around the doors has to go somewhere, you've still got space with no seats whether you put it at the ends or at 1/3 2/3. Granted, the doors are bigger, but it speeds up station dwell times

Yes, the doors are wider, meaning less space for seats and/or legroom. Also, putting the doors at the ends means they are not a constraint on the seating layout, which may mean there is more flexibility for getting a good layout. And I know others complain on the forums about draughts (though that's not something I generally bring up). If the legroom is as good as you say, then serivces they might be useful for on W&B (in order of where I think an outer-suburban unit would be most suitable) are as follows:

• Cardiff-Cheltenham all-stops (perhaps extended to/from Swansea as the Swanline service)
• Cardiff-Hereford all-stops (inc. Caerleon)
• Chester-Shrewsbury (additional services following the Wrexham redouble)
• Wrexham-Bidston
• Swansea - Pembroke Dock all-stops
• Llandudno - Liverpool (all-stops to the Halton Curve))

The first two are also candidates for bi-mode operation. The Crewe-Shrewsbury stoppers would be on there too, except that I think they should go to LM to be run by 170s and 3 coaches is a big step up from the present mix of solo 150s and 153s. You could perhaps also put them on Rhymney-Penarth as a stop gap while waiting for electrification.

exactly my point No successful trial = no orders. Why do people keep thinking their an option?

I've read a claim that a small number (I think 6 units) of D-Trains have been ordered (or are not far off being ordered); but no statement on who has ordered them.

A focus on doors and aligning seats with windows is something that enthusiasts care about much more than regular passengers.

I'm not sure I ever thought about it until we sent my brother to Nottingham as mentioned previously. He's no rail enthusiast, he drives his car everywhere now that he has a license, and he certainly reported following that Cardiff-Nottingham journey that the doors were in the wrong place.

From watching the committee it didn't seem Porterbrook were talking about a large number of them.

Maybe the plan is to use a 4/5 of them from a small pool shared with Northern based at Allerton. Using them on some of Conwy Valley, Wrexham-Bidston,Chester-Crewe shuttle and Crewe-Shrewsbury locals. This would free up 4/5 150/2 for PRM mods/refresh.

WG don't seem to have a clue their answer is either

a) The new franchise will fix it.

b) It's confidential due to competitive dialogue procurement.

c) It's the DFT's fault.

With mutterings of metro, light rail and batteries

Sounds a mess; how are they going to replace 30 Pacers with a handful of 319s? Unless WAG have got a Pacer derrogation until the wires are up but aren't telling us because keeping Pacers will cause uproar and they hope to keep it under the carpet until after the next assembly election.

 

[Gareth Marston]

From watching the committee it didn't seem Porterbrook were talking about a large number of them.

Maybe the plan is to use a 4/5 of them from a small pool shared with Northern based at Allerton. Using them on some of Conwy Valley, Wrexham-Bidston,Chester-Crewe shuttle and Crewe-Shrewsbury locals. This would free up 4/5 150/2 for PRM mods/refresh.

WG don't seem to have a clue their answer is either

a) The new franchise will fix it.

b) It's confidential due to competitive dialogue procurement.

c) It's the DFT's fault.

With mutterings of metro, light rail and batteries

Headlights and Rabbits does come to mind.

 

[PHILIPE]

I too think they should split the services (and add in an hourly express Carmarthen-Cardiff via the Swansea District Line to maintain through services, keeping the Bridgend passengers off them by not calling so that a 2-car 175 may surfice).

Yes, the doors are wider, meaning less space for seats and/or legroom. Also, putting the doors at the ends means they are not a constraint on the seating layout, which may mean there is more flexibility for getting a good layout. And I know others complain on the forums about draughts (though that's not something I generally bring up). If the legroom is as good as you say, then serivces they might be useful for on W&B (in order of where I think an outer-suburban unit would be most suitable) are as follows:

• Cardiff-Cheltenham all-stops (perhaps extended to/from Swansea as the Swanline service)
• Cardiff-Hereford all-stops (inc. Caerleon)
• Chester-Shrewsbury (additional services following the Wrexham redouble)
• Wrexham-Bidston
• Swansea - Pembroke Dock all-stops
• Llandudno - Liverpool (all-stops to the Halton Curve))

The first two are also candidates for bi-mode operation. The Crewe-Shrewsbury stoppers would be on there too, except that I think they should go to LM to be run by 170s and 3 coaches is a big step up from the present mix of solo 150s and 153s. You could perhaps also put them on Rhymney-Penarth as a stop gap while waiting for electrification.

I've read a claim that a small number (I think 6 units) of D-Trains have been ordered (or are not far off being ordered); but no statement on who has ordered them.

I'm not sure I ever thought about it until we sent my brother to Nottingham as mentioned previously. He's no rail enthusiast, he drives his car everywhere now that he has a license, and he certainly reported following that Cardiff-Nottingham journey that the doors were in the wrong place.

Sounds a mess; how are they going to replace 30 Pacers with a handful of 319s? Unless WAG have got a Pacer derrogation until the wires are up but aren't telling us because keeping Pacers will cause uproar and they hope to keep it under the carpet until after the next assembly election.

I assume that you have checked that there would be enough units for all your ideas, especially as we haven't a clue yet what the fleet will look like. Also, you have an obsession with using the Swansea District Line

 

[craigybagel]

Yes, the doors are wider, meaning less space for seats and/or legroom. Also, putting the doors at the ends means they are not a constraint on the seating layout, which may mean there is more flexibility for getting a good layout. And I know others complain on the forums about draughts (though that's not something I generally bring up). If the legroom is as good as you say, then serivces they might be useful for on W&B (in order of where I think an outer-suburban unit would be most suitable) are as follows:

• Cardiff-Cheltenham all-stops (perhaps extended to/from Swansea as the Swanline service)
• Cardiff-Hereford all-stops (inc. Caerleon)
• Chester-Shrewsbury (additional services following the Wrexham redouble)
• Wrexham-Bidston
• Swansea - Pembroke Dock all-stops
• Llandudno - Liverpool (all-stops to the Halton Curve))

The first two are also candidates for bi-mode operation. The Crewe-Shrewsbury stoppers would be on there too, except that I think they should go to LM to be run by 170s and 3 coaches is a big step up from the present mix of solo 150s and 153s. You could perhaps also put them on Rhymney-Penarth as a stop gap while waiting for electrification.

Almost all of those routes are complete overkill for a 185. You might not like them, but they're medium distance trains. The routes you're suggesting would be perfect for 150, albeit possibly they could do with a refurb. The only exception being Liverpool - Llandudno, that is a route 185s would be good for.

Also, and I know you're not the only person guilty of this, but why transfer the Crewe-Shrewsbury shuttle to LM? What benefits will be gained over keeping it with AW? Its been suggested a fair few times but I've never been a shown a good reason for doing it. In either case, the suggestion of using a 170, and especially a 185 for that service is particularly odd. 3 coaches is certainly a step up for a service that rarely fills half a 153.

 

[gareth950]

Sounds a mess; how are they going to replace 30 Pacers with a handful of 319s? Unless WAG have got a Pacer derrogation until the wires are up but aren't telling us because keeping Pacers will cause uproar and they hope to keep it under the carpet until after the next assembly election.

Well we'll find out a lot sooner than 2021 if a Pacer derrogation has been allowed. Makes you wonder why it's just been announced the Welsh Govt (not the DFT) is funding Wifi on ATWs 142s and 143s.

Maybe the Northern Pacers (142s and 144s) will end up being the 'capacity boost' on the valley lines in 2019

 

[Gareth Marston]

Well we'll find out a lot sooner than 2021 if a Pacer derrogation has been allowed. Makes you wonder why it's just been announced the Welsh Govt (not the DFT) is funding Wifi on ATWs 142s and 143s.

Maybe the Northern Pacers (142s and 144s) will end up being the 'capacity boost' on the valley lines in 2019

Source?

 

[PHILIPE]

Well we'll find out a lot sooner than 2021 if a Pacer derrogation has been allowed. Makes you wonder why it's just been announced the Welsh Govt (not the DFT) is funding Wifi on ATWs 142s and 143s.

Maybe the Northern Pacers (142s and 144s) will end up being the 'capacity boost' on the valley lines in 2019

ATW says that WIFI funded by Welsh Govt AND DFT

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

ATW says that WIFI funded by Welsh Govt AND DFT

I expect it's DfT money, with the ATW share sent to Cardiff for WG to administer like the rest of the franchise finances.
Then they can both claim to fund it.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Almost all of those routes are complete overkill for a 185. You might not like them, but they're medium distance trains. The routes you're suggesting would be perfect for 150, albeit possibly they could do with a refurb. The only exception being Liverpool - Llandudno, that is a route 185s would be good for.

Also, and I know you're not the only person guilty of this, but why transfer the Crewe-Shrewsbury shuttle to LM? What benefits will be gained over keeping it with AW? Its been suggested a fair few times but I've never been a shown a good reason for doing it. In either case, the suggestion of using a 170, and especially a 185 for that service is particularly odd. 3 coaches is certainly a step up for a service that rarely fills half a 153.

The 185's would be the right type of unit for North Wales to Manchester and a Liverpool Lime St- Halton Curve-Chester-Wrexham-Shrewsbury-Birmingham-Birmingham International service. In fact linking Liverpool and Birmingham via Wrexham is the sensible thing to do connecting the communities in Shropshire/NE Wales with their nearest city region centres.

 

[northwichcat]

Makes you wonder why it's just been announced the Welsh Govt (not the DFT) is funding Wifi on ATWs 142s and 143s.

Surely fitting wifi to a train is just the addition of a box which can easily be removed and put on another train.

 

[gareth950]

Source?

See post #439

 

[daikilo]

Surely fitting wifi to a train is just the addition of a box which can easily be removed and put on another train.

Notionally, yes, provided it isn't so easy to remove that it disappears between stations. What costs is the installation labour to add the power-supply, external antena, brackets etc etc to the point where once installed it may make more sense to just leave it, especially as wifi will be replaced one day.

 

[Philip]

The 185's would be the right type of unit for North Wales to Manchester and a Liverpool Lime St- Halton Curve-Chester-Wrexham-Shrewsbury-Birmingham-Birmingham International service. In fact linking Liverpool and Birmingham via Wrexham is the sensible thing to do connecting the communities in Shropshire/NE Wales with their nearest city region centres.

The Liverpool-Wrexham-Birmingham sounds a good idea, would there be space for a half-hourly service between Chester and Shrewsbury?

 

[gareth950]

I can't find the news source now, but when ATW initially announced that it would be fitting free wifi to it's trains, it was stated that the 142s and 143s had not been allocated money by the DFT to have wifi fitted due to the short time that these units expected to have left in service.

With the Welsh Govt now deciding to stump up the money that the DFT refused to to fit wifi to these units, who knows if this has now changed.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I assume that you have checked that there would be enough units for all your ideas, especially as we haven't a clue yet what the fleet will look like. Also, you have an obsession with using the Swansea District Line

If you're refering to my list of where to use 185s, I wasn't suggesting they be used on all of those routes necessarily, just pointing out where I wouldn't mind seeing them used if they did come to W&B. As for the Swansea District Line, I think my obsession is with railways in general and I really want to see services improve to attract modal shift away from cars. That's one reason why I'm against the use of units with 'doors at thirds' on long-distance routes; I want trains to be as comfortable as possible. Also, south-west Wales is 'my area' and I think one of the big barriers to modal shift here is that journey times to Cardiff are much longer by rail than driving. There's no way you can get even close to the 70 minutes (Carmarthen-Cardiff) that is necessary to beat the car without using the Swansea District Line; so it's a means to an end. It is that end that I'm obsessed with, not the means particularly.

Almost all of those routes are complete overkill for a 185. You might not like them, but they're medium distance trains. The routes you're suggesting would be perfect for 150, albeit possibly they could do with a refurb. The only exception being Liverpool - Llandudno, that is a route 185s would be good for.

The 185s are medium-distance trains yes, but I would argue that they are medium-distance STOPPING trains, not for use on the principal fast service on a given route. That's why Llandudno works, because it is all-stops to Chester and there are (or could/should be) faster trains between Chester and Llandudno Junction (carrying on the Holyhead/Bangor/Caernarfon) using a higher-standard of rolling stock (175s or LHCS).

Two of routes I suggested (Wrexham-Bidston and Chester-Shrewsbury) are borderline cases where I might consider a 150 suitable, and the same applies to Crewe-Shrewsbury if it was a standalone operation not running through to Birmingham or the HOWL. The others are all medium-distance (over an hour) meaning 150s are not suitable (they are, as Neil Williams put it in the ATW Pacer replacements topic " laid out for dwarves"). The high-power of the 185s is perhaps overkill though; Turbostars (with decent legroom, not XC's which are pretty terrible I seem to recall) would probably be more-appropriate.

Also, and I know you're not the only person guilty of this, but why transfer the Crewe-Shrewsbury shuttle to LM? What benefits will be gained over keeping it with AW? Its been suggested a fair few times but I've never been a shown a good reason for doing it. In either case, the suggestion of using a 170, and especially a 185 for that service is particularly odd. 3 coaches is certainly a step up for a service that rarely fills half a 153.

First, it is an England-only route, and since they don't elect AMs to Cardiff Bay giving the service to an English TOC could help with accountability. I'm also suggesting that LM take full responsibility for ALL stations between Crewe and Shrewsbury, running an hourly service and removing the stops at Nantwich, Whitchurch and Wem from the W&B Manchester services. Also, if LM had it they could provide a through service to/from Birmingham (though whether that would be attractive is debatable).

The 185's would be the right type of unit for North Wales to Manchester and a Liverpool Lime St- Halton Curve-Chester-Wrexham-Shrewsbury-Birmingham-Birmingham International service. In fact linking Liverpool and Birmingham via Wrexham is the sensible thing to do connecting the communities in Shropshire/NE Wales with their nearest city region centres.

I don't think that's sensible at all, since you cannot run from Wrexham to Birmingham with anything other than ETCS equiped 158s unless you divert Cambrian services to Crewe instead of Birmingham or terminate them at Shrewsbury. Also, I think the Manchester - North Wales services should be fasts, in the hands of 175s or LHCS, with the Llandudno stoppers going to Liverpool instead (those could be 185s). The only way of getting Wrexham to Liverpool via the Halton Curve (which is probably a good idea) is a Cardiff to Liverpool every two hours (unless the Birmingham-Wrexham-Holyhead services are diverted to run Birmingham-Wrexham-Liverpool, but that's more 158s that are then unavailable for the Cambrian).

 

[berneyarms]

I assume that you have checked that there would be enough units for all your ideas, especially as we haven't a clue yet what the fleet will look like. Also, you have an obsession with using the Swansea District Line

I don't think that there is any harm in putting out a wish list of services under the new franchise at the moment - no one can say what units will or won't be available or ordered.

In fact it is precisely the debate that should be taking place.

I fail to see the issue in doing so.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The Liverpool-Wrexham-Birmingham sounds a good idea, would there be space for a half-hourly service between Chester and Shrewsbury?

Not without a very carefully constructed timetable.
The remaining single track section and long signal spacing don't help.
And the timetable at both ends is constrained by the clockface times on other routes.

Anyway, there's insufficient demand for 2tph Chester-Shrewsbury.
I could see the Liverpool-Chester being extended to Wrexham, but not beyond.
We still don't know how the "hourly Holyhead-Cardiff" is going to be pathed.

 

[Astradyne]

Well we'll find out a lot sooner than 2021 if a Pacer derrogation has been allowed. Makes you wonder why it's just been announced the Welsh Govt (not the DFT) is funding Wifi on ATWs 142s and 143s.

Maybe the Northern Pacers (142s and 144s) will end up being the 'capacity boost' on the valley lines in 2019

I am not sure you can apply for derrogation for whole units because you have been totally disorganised. I thought derrogation would more for minor issues such as door buttons​ being a few cms to high etc.