Arriva Rail North DOO

[johntea]

Well Normanton users have it fairly easy to be honest, as far as I can tell they're perfectly entitled to purchase a ticket from the TVM or on their phone and travel to either Castleford or Wakefield stations on an Arriva bus.

 

[yorksrob]

Well Normanton users have it fairly easy to be honest, as far as I can tell they're perfectly entitled to purchase a ticket from the TVM or on their phone and travel to either Castleford or Wakefield stations on an Arriva bus.

Yes, wait around at Castleford for however long, for the emergency timetabled service, or go the other way to Wakefield, where the bus goes nowhere near Westgate station (where all the non-Northern trains go from).

I'd rather the train stopped, frankly.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

That is unfortunate for those left behind, but is it not better for the train to go ahead with most of the passengers than none at all?

Of course it is. But we also have to take into account how many trains are cancelled due to no guard. It isn't many, and that is because of covering spare turns and SPT's.
With DCO the requirement for spares will not be there, and that will increase this problem considerably. I would like to see some positive proposals to reduce this risk.

 

[harz99]

As flippant as this post may read, it's not entirely wrong. The RMT are completely shocking at explaining anything to it's own members, I wouldn't expect anything better towards the public.

There are many changes on the railway. GSMR brought the biggest change of all, and that is in the form of a big red button that all but makes traditional protection of the line obsolete. We all have to face up to the reality that technology is catching up with us all, and changes are coming if we like it or not.
Safety critical roles have often been used as a means of protecting grades. Let's not be too dismissive though, there has been many incidents over the years where guards have been absolute life savers, but that in itself is not a reason to try and hold back change. It is a very uncomfortable truth, but without the safety critical title, everything else a guard does could be done on the cheap.
Guards have to keep PTS. That is essential for train evacuation, and when we use the word 'evacuation' lets not conjure up images of mass panic in emergencies. Evacuations can be needed in simple incidents of train failures where you have to get passengers off one train onto another via the lineside.

Is there still a role for a well paid second member of train crew? Absolutely, but the role must evolve, and there is plenty of areas where it can evolve for the better of the passenger. I often wonder if some guards object to taking on a more proactive customer service role because they are pretty crap at it to start with. But this is the area where the future lies.

There is another issue that clearly confuses many. Northern are seeking DCO not DOO. I don't believe that they really want to run trains without a second member of crew, but they clearly want that role to be customer related. I don't see an issue with this, but that is because I happen to be damn good with the customer service role, I have often wondered why the hell I'm opening doors when I have passengers wanting to pay their fares, it make no sense, either in the customer relation aspect, or business sense.

Alan Chaplin, the MD of 'Northern' I have spoken to several times. This guy is switched on and approachable, far more approachable than many RMT reps I might add. He is begging the RMT to get around the table and thrash out the areas where DCO will work and where it wont be safe. He wants to pick the brains of his staff who have the hands on day to day experience. That has to be a nettle worth grasping. He has stated there will be no job cuts or loss of pay, obviously in years to come that may change for new starters, but that is something between 'Northern' and anyone who wishes to work for them in the future.

The day will come when all this has to end. Let's hope it ends with sensible people talking like sensible adults, because if the RMT fail to move on, it will be barrelled on us all anyhow, and I for one would much rather reach an agreement than go down the road Southern went down.

Careful, making considered, commonsense statements like the above, will not sit well with many of tomorrow's strikers, however true the content may be!

 

[Starmill]

Yes, wait around at Castleford for however long, for the emergency timetabled service, or go the other way to Wakefield, where the bus goes nowhere near Westgate station (where all the non-Northern trains go from).

I'd rather the train stopped, frankly.

It is better than Greenfield, where there are no trains and no buses.

 

[185143]

It is better than Greenfield, where there are no trains and no buses.

The 184 stops just around the corner doesn't it? Granted it's only hourly-but so is the train! (Or am I thinking of Mossley?)

 

[Starmill]

The 184 stops just around the corner doesn't it? Granted it's only hourly-but so is the train! (Or am I thinking of Mossley?)

You can't use a train ticket on it.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The 184 stops just around the corner doesn't it? Granted it's only hourly-but so is the train! (Or am I thinking of Mossley?)

I think you are thinking also of the service 180 that has such a frequency and does indeed serve the Greenfield area, including the railway station, from its terminus at the Clarence Hotel on Chew Valley Road. Full details on services 180/184/X84 are to be found on the TfGM issued bus timetable dated 29th January 2017.

 

[yorksrob]

It is better than Greenfield, where there are no trains and no buses.

Indeed it is, however since Northern are clearly running a train through Normanton, it is my view that they should stop it there (personally I think that as trains are running through Greenfield, they should stop some there as well, although if they're all run by TPE it might make things more difficult to arrange)

 

[313103]

As flippant as this post may read, it's not entirely wrong. The RMT are completely shocking at explaining anything to it's own members, I wouldn't expect anything better towards the public.

There are many changes on the railway. GSMR brought the biggest change of all, and that is in the form of a big red button that all but makes traditional protection of the line obsolete. We all have to face up to the reality that technology is catching up with us all, and changes are coming if we like it or not.
Safety critical roles have often been used as a means of protecting grades. Let's not be too dismissive though, there has been many incidents over the years where guards have been absolute life savers, but that in itself is not a reason to try and hold back change. It is a very uncomfortable truth, but without the safety critical title, everything else a guard does could be done on the cheap.
Guards have to keep PTS. That is essential for train evacuation, and when we use the word 'evacuation' lets not conjure up images of mass panic in emergencies. Evacuations can be needed in simple incidents of train failures where you have to get passengers off one train onto another via the lineside.

Is there still a role for a well paid second member of train crew? Absolutely, but the role must evolve, and there is plenty of areas where it can evolve for the better of the passenger. I often wonder if some guards object to taking on a more proactive customer service role because they are pretty crap at it to start with. But this is the area where the future lies.

There is another issue that clearly confuses many. Northern are seeking DCO not DOO. I don't believe that they really want to run trains without a second member of crew, but they clearly want that role to be customer related. I don't see an issue with this, but that is because I happen to be damn good with the customer service role, I have often wondered why the hell I'm opening doors when I have passengers wanting to pay their fares, it make no sense, either in the customer relation aspect, or business sense.

Alan Chaplin, the MD of 'Northern' I have spoken to several times. This guy is switched on and approachable, far more approachable than many RMT reps I might add. He is begging the RMT to get around the table and thrash out the areas where DCO will work and where it wont be safe. He wants to pick the brains of his staff who have the hands on day to day experience. That has to be a nettle worth grasping. He has stated there will be no job cuts or loss of pay, obviously in years to come that may change for new starters, but that is something between 'Northern' and anyone who wishes to work for them in the future.

The day will come when all this has to end. Let's hope it ends with sensible people talking like sensible adults, because if the RMT fail to move on, it will be barrelled on us all anyhow, and I for one would much rather reach an agreement than go down the road Southern went down.

If the MD of Northern Rail was serious about getting round the table and seriously talk about issues, the redundancies voluntary or otherwise will be off the table now and during the time of this franchise what happens after is anyone's guess, that guards displaced from the role will keep there salary now and during the rest of the franchise including any overtime and any pay rises that may happen during the life of the franchise, that the union will be involved in the reasons why there will not be a a another person on the train and these will be restricted, that sufficent spare staff are around to cover should the booked member not be there, that the staff displaced maintain there safety credentials and finally that that the DOO scheme set in place now will not be furthered upon during the life of the franchise. This would be my minimum starting point, if the company feel they can't or won't go there then they are not being serious at all.

We all know what the ultimate aim is wether they say it or not so its not worth me mentioning it again.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

We live in a time when technology is catching up BUT can only do so much. Personally I feel Scotrail DCO is the best way forward (Driver Releasing, Guard Closing). The only people who actually want DOO are the DfT and Shareholders as to be blunt it is purely about money. GSM-R is nowhere near as fullproof as some people seem to think as there are many many problems with it from simple failure to register to actually losing signal. The Driver needs back up on many things whether it is evacuation, fault finding or inspection of the line. A Good Guard WILL be out in the train giving good customer service but as in any industry there are a few that do not and eventually they retiring or leaving. There are many challenges the Guards role face over the next few years and yes some change does have to happen but do not underestimate the knowledge that Guards possess as that knowledge may one day save yours and passengers lives. Alan Chaplain problem is (just like the RMT's) is a severe lack of information. Arriva would have had quite a detailed plan when they tendered for the franchise so maybe some more facts and honesty would help everyone concerned.

 

[northwichcat]

Northern are now expected to run a 19:29 Lime Street to Urmston service and a 20:29 Lime Street to Oxford Rd service, as well as a number of services to Huyton, St Helens Junction and Newton-le-Willows after the Grand National (last service 20:16.)

 

[Robertj21a]

If the MD of Northern Rail was serious about getting round the table and seriously talk about issues, the redundancies voluntary or otherwise will be off the table now and during the time of this franchise what happens after is anyone's guess, that guards displaced from the role will keep there salary now and during the rest of the franchise including any overtime and any pay rises that may happen during the life of the franchise, that the union will be involved in the reasons why there will not be a a another person on the train and these will be restricted, that sufficent spare staff are around to cover should the booked member not be there, that the staff displaced maintain there safety credentials and finally that that the DOO scheme set in place now will not be furthered upon during the life of the franchise. This would be my minimum starting point, if the company feel they can't or won't go there then they are not being serious at all.

We all know what the ultimate aim is wether they say it or not so its not worth me mentioning it again.

In all fairness to any operator, there would be little point in any of them trying to progress issues if people like you insisted on such a long list of conditions as a minimum starting point !. The time has come to look forward, not back into the past century.

 

[313103]

In all fairness to any operator, there would be little point in any of them trying to progress issues if people like you insisted on such a long list of conditions as a minimum starting point !. The time has come to look forward, not back into the past century.

I suppose you mean (and I have to be very careful in what I say here so has not to cause offence) that staff should just accept their lot in life and be grateful that the nice company has gone out there way to give a oich (I won't be offended by such words as I have been called for worse like me a job).

Yes I agree the time is to move forward and I mean in everything, because if no unions existed we would be living in the same vain as those who did before the unions were created that is live in poverty and servitude.

I also think (and again I will choose my words wisely so as not to cause distress or offence) you may not understand what negotiation is. Each side always has a starting point the companies will say we won't this, this and this and the unions will say we want this, this and this, it is how you get to the final point. Of course no union wants to lose members, and every company wants to make money.

Why don't any of these companies be bloody honest and tell us why they want to rid members of staff, at least we know the real aim. The design of the non safety member of staff on a train is designed to fail, that is why no other DOO line has them, they bring nothing to the company, they cost a fortune and whilst the companies may recruit at the beginning by the time the franchise ends many of those staff will be gone.

 

[northwichcat]

Why don't any of these companies be bloody honest and tell us why they want to rid members of staff, at least we know the real aim.

Where's the evidence for that claim?

Merseyrail (under instruction from Merseytravel) have said the existing guards will be offered alternative employment. Interestingly some people are saying they usually vote Labour but will vote Green or Lib Dem in the Liverpool mayoral election because of the Labour controlled local authority forcing DOO on Merseyrail.

So far we've not heard Northern's exact plans (to meet the DfT and Rail North set DCO requirement) but we do know they are currently recruiting additional guards so that they can run the planned service enhancements. We also know, unlike Merseyrail, there will be 2 members of franchise staff on all services* so in total they'll need more staff to work on trains than they had when they took over the franchise.

* Yes there's a caveat that they don't have to cancel a service if the second member of staff is unavailable and the RMT think they'll abuse that.

 

[northwichcat]

I'm still interested in how Northern expect ASLEF drivers to work DOO when it's not in their contract.

How long do you think it'll take ASLEF and Arriva to come to an agreement? Realistically there's not going to be 'DCO' services before December 2018 even if agreements with the unions were in place.

 

[313103]

Where's the evidence for that claim?

Previous DOO schemes including London Overground and on Southern is evidence enough, both have seen staff go out of the industry as a direct result of DOO.

On merseyrail we will see a reduction of staff numbers as a result of DOO and although I don't have it directly to hand ibut numbers of current guards and the new grade don't add up.

On Northern Rail without reading the finer detail, the numbers again between currently employed Guards and numbers of staff in the replaced role do not add up either.

 

[northwichcat]

On merseyrail we will see a reduction of staff numbers as a result of DOO and although I don't have it directly to hand ibut numbers of current guards and the new grade don't add up.

I don't think numbers can ever literally add up as presumptions have to be made with regards to how many staff leave voluntary and whether employees approaching retirement age retire at reach retirement age or before or after - the Equalities Act no longer allows employers to force people to retire if they have gone past retirement age but are still able to do their job properly.

 

[Class 170101]

Four services each direction running.

Dep: Carlisle - 1028 1135 1436 1628
Dep: Newcastle - 0924 1223 1424 1925

Are these the joint Northern / Scotrail services?

Strange that they are running more services than they operated on the last strike day in to Liverpool but saying their services can't be used for getting home. This means punters from Wigan will have no problem getting a train in to Liverpool but coming back they'd have to get a train to Warrington Central and then walk to Bank Quay to get a train to Wigan.

or via Crewe with LM and Virgin

How long do you think it'll take ASLEF and Arriva to come to an agreement? Realistically there's not going to be 'DCO' services before December 2018 even if agreements with the unions were in place.

Possibly a long while given the dispute at Southern, which has had a proposed resolution go to ballot twice and be rejected by ASLEF membership twice.

 

[WatcherZero]

Northern are mananging to put on an additional six services from Lime Street after original expected strike finish at 5pm. These include new last services
•*7.02pm to Wigan North Western
•*7.29pm to Urmston
•*8.16pm to Newton-le-Willows

 

[Robertj21a]

I suppose you mean (and I have to be very careful in what I say here so has not to cause offence) that staff should just accept their lot in life and be grateful that the nice company has gone out there way to give a oich (I won't be offended by such words as I have been called for worse like me a job).

Yes I agree the time is to move forward and I mean in everything, because if no unions existed we would be living in the same vain as those who did before the unions were created that is live in poverty and servitude.

I also think (and again I will choose my words wisely so as not to cause distress or offence) you may not understand what negotiation is. Each side always has a starting point the companies will say we won't this, this and this and the unions will say we want this, this and this, it is how you get to the final point. Of course no union wants to lose members, and every company wants to make money.

Why don't any of these companies be bloody honest and tell us why they want to rid members of staff, at least we know the real aim. The design of the non safety member of staff on a train is designed to fail, that is why no other DOO line has them, they bring nothing to the company, they cost a fortune and whilst the companies may recruit at the beginning by the time the franchise ends many of those staff will be gone.

No idea why you feel that you have to be careful with your words, you've been quite explicit to date.

Also no idea why you say that 'I suppose you mean that staff should accept their lot in life.....etc'. Where did I say that ? Are you sure you're even responding to the correct post ?

My point was, I thought, quite simple - but I'll try again. If that long list of demands from you is just to get to a very minimum starting point, then there's not much point in the other party discussing matters with you.

I really do love your attempt at belittling me inasmuch that......... 'I may not understand what negotiation is'. You really do take the biscuit, but at least you've given me a laugh.

[NB - I've spent very many years negotiating - you should learn how to do it properly sometime]

 

[313103]

No idea why you feel that you have to be careful with your words, you've been quite explicit to date.

Also no idea why you say that 'I suppose you mean that staff should accept their lot in life.....etc'. Where did I say that ? Are you sure you're even responding to the correct post ?

My point was, I thought, quite simple - but I'll try again. If that long list of demands from you is just to get to a very minimum starting point, then there's not much point in the other party discussing matters with you.

I really do love your attempt at belittling me inasmuch that......... 'I may not understand what negotiation is'. You really do take the biscuit, but at least you've given me a laugh.

[NB - I've spent very many years negotiating - you should learn how to do it properly sometime]

I have to choose my carefully as I said something the week before and it got me banned, so they were made in such a way as to not cause offence to you or anyone else for that matter.

Surely if a company comes to me with a set of proposals then I must have my own. Which could mean in the case Mersey rail or Northern Rail coming to me with conditions that could lead to lost of jobs and a degradation of duties over the term of the franchise, then I must counter act that by proposing no lost of jobs and no degradation of duties.

As for the rest I cannot respond as it is not in relation to the topic at hand, and I will not be lead to that.

If you feel that answer is not sufficent then perhaps you should speak to a moderator.

 

[a_c_skinner]

I was ploughing in fiberoptic broadband by the line at Silverdale (on the non-rail side of the fence). About an hourly service in the daytime, all the ones I saw four car 156s, not well loaded.

Andrew

 

[muz379]

How long do you think it'll take ASLEF and Arriva to come to an agreement? Realistically there's not going to be 'DCO' services before December 2018 even if agreements with the unions were in place.

I dont think it will be as quick as you seem to think

Relations between the two are already strained . They almost balloted in feb

Plus the vast majority of ASLEF drivers I speak to do not want to see DCO/DOO so if any deal is put to the membership like the Southern deal I think it would be reasonable to be optimistic that the members would reject it .

 

[Starmill]

No train, no Metrolink, no replacement bus for me tonight. Why should I buy a ticket for such a poor service?

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

That is unfortunate for those left behind, but is it not better for the train to go ahead with most of the passengers than none at all?

The trouble with that is while it may seem pragmatic it also condones discrimination against disadvantaged people. Is that really the sort of country we want to live in? Guarantee a second person on board every train with no exceptions and you avoid that particular slippery pole.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

Nearly every driver I speak to has clearly stated they will reject any offer regarding DCO no matter what it is. The support from our drivers towards the RMT dispute has been overwhelming. This battle is just beginning, and from the soundings I'm taking, any deal for DCO would be rejected out of hand if a deal to guarantee a second person on the train wasn't forthcoming.

Arriva's problems are just beginning, but that does not mean agreement cannot be reached, but already they are trying to go down the Southern route of thinking. Get your tin hats on folks.

 

[northwichcat]

already they are trying to go down the Southern route of thinking.

Going down the Scotrail route is ruled out unless DfT agree to a change of a franchise specification. Given strikes at Southern have been going on for over a year and DfT were told to 'keep their noses out of the dispute' by Mick Cash a change to the franchise specification is very unlikely to happen while Mick Cash is leading the union.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

The trouble with that is while it may seem pragmatic it also condones discrimination against disadvantaged people. Is that really the sort of country we want to live in? Guarantee a second person on board every train with no exceptions and you avoid that particular slippery pole.

Sadly you are right. This is the sort of country society has created. 'Me, me, me' and it's getting worse.

But the message is now getting out. Disabled people in the Southern region are now seeing that what the RMT was warning of is coming true. But the government hacked away at disabled rights, and nobody cared. Then they hacked at their pitiful level of benefits, and still nobody cared. Is it any wonder they are trying to stop them using public transport when they wish, because this government now think nobody will care.

 

[northwichcat]

No train, no Metrolink, no replacement bus for me tonight. Why should I buy a ticket for such a poor service?

Did you buy a ticket before the emergency timetables were released? If not you knew what service was being offered at the time of purchase. If you did and there wasn't a conveniently timed service for your journey then you should be entitled to a refund.