Arriva Rail North DOO

[Bletchleyite]

At some Northern stations a barrow crossing can only be used if assisted by station staff and the only station staff is the person in the ticket office.

I'm not sure if it's something Northern are trailing at the moment but there have recently been instances where a member of ticket office staff has acted as a RPI alongside a STM contracted one at times when a lot of passengers are arriving.

I'm not clear what either of those have to do with DOO.

 

[northwichcat]

I'm not clear what either of those have to do with DOO.

You said about the person in the ticket office only flogging tickets.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You said about the person in the ticket office only flogging tickets.

That there are a couple of other staff who are also not engaged with anything to do with train boarding or dispatch is irrelevant.

Only the provision of platform dispatchers, not any other class of station staff, affects safety of DOO.

 

[craigybagel]

That there are a couple of other staff who are also not engaged with anything to do with train boarding or dispatch is irrelevant.

Only the provision of platform dispatchers, not any other class of station staff, affects safety of DOO.

Until you have a passenger who needs to use the barrow crossing - I can't speak for Northern but at my own TOC barrow crossings are operated by conductors if there is a passenger requiring assistance and the booking office is closed.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

The omission of Normanton, Chapeltown, Elsecar, Wombwell and Darton is to provide a mainly hourly service from the other stations (half-hourly from Castleford) without needing an additional diagram.

Normanton tickets will be accepted on the 189 bus which runs every 10 minutes to Castleford, so Normanton will do a lot better than many other towns on the strike day.

Whereas Northern clearly couldn't give a stuff about anyone wanting to travel from Chapeltown, Elsecar, Wombwell and Darton! Surely if diagrams are at a premium on strike days then running a 2 x 158 train calling at all stations is better than discriminating against those who don't live in the main towns on the route?

 

[northwichcat]

Until you have a passenger who needs to use the barrow crossing - I can't speak for Northern but at my own TOC barrow crossings are operated by conductors if there is a passenger requiring assistance and the booking office is closed.

Not the case with Northern. If the ticket office is closed at the station they are travelling then disabled passengers are required to travel onwards to the next accessible station and then back to the station they are travelling to so they can use the platform on the other side! Presumably if it's the last train they'll arrange a taxi back.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I'm not clear what either of those have to do with DOO.

The provision of non-dispatch station staff does at least provide a degree of fall-back in terms of customer assistance especially for the boarding and alighting of PRMs. The lack of this has been a source of some disquiet in the Southern dispute and could potentially be a much bigger issue on Northern.

 

[yorksrob]

The omission of Normanton, Chapeltown, Elsecar, Wombwell and Darton is to provide a mainly hourly service from the other stations (half-hourly from Castleford) without needing an additional diagram.

Normanton tickets will be accepted on the 189 bus which runs every 10 minutes to Castleford, so Normanton will do a lot better than many other towns on the strike day.

From the emergency timetable, the turn around times at Sheffield and Leeds appear to be 10 - 15 minutes, so I see little justification for missing out Normanton.

 

[yorksrob]

Whereas Northern clearly couldn't give a stuff about anyone wanting to travel from Chapeltown, Elsecar, Wombwell and Darton! Surely if diagrams are at a premium on strike days then running a 2 x 158 train calling at all stations is better than discriminating against those who don't live in the main towns on the route?

I agree. The priority should be running the stopping service, rather than running express services which are a luxury under the circumstances.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

From the emergency timetable, the turn around times at Sheffield and Leeds appear to be 10 - 15 minutes, so I see little justification for missing out Normanton.

Driver PNBs? Resilience time agreed with Network Rail? Minimising the number of "temporary" guards needed?

I agree. The priority should be running the stopping service, rather than running express services which are a luxury under the circumstances.

A tricky management decision. Since in your opinion they have clearly got it wrong it must be worth submitting a formal complaint if only to clarify that both options really have been considered.

 

[yorksrob]

Driver PNBs? Resilience time agreed with Network Rail? Minimising the number of "temporary" guards needed?



A tricky management decision. Since in your opinion they have clearly got it wrong it must be worth submitting a formal complaint if only to clarify that both options really have been considered.

Indeed. I've been considering it.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Until you have a passenger who needs to use the barrow crossing - I can't speak for Northern but at my own TOC barrow crossings are operated by conductors if there is a passenger requiring assistance and the booking office is closed.

How many barrow crossings are there in the area of this franchise that is under discussion?

 

[kw12]

RMT's and the guard's problem is that saying it's all about the safety is a hard sell to the uninformed, when "experts" are saying that it's safe and saying how many lines are running DOO already.

One of the reasons it is such a hard sell that this is all about safety may be that many people may not have heard/seen convincing answers to questions such as:
- why has there been no noticeable difference in safety on Southern since conductors switched to be being on board supervisors just over three months ago?
- why do there appear to be no independent safety experts raising concerns about the impact on safety?
- given that we have had DOO trains in the UK for over 30 years, operating a substantial proportion of services and an even higher proportion of passenger journeys, why has RMT not highlighted any deaths or injuries that have occurred during this period that could/might have been avoided had the trains involved had a traditional guard?

 

[Moonshot]

Indeed. I've been considering it.

What would you achieve by that? These emergency diagrams have to take into account the number of hours available and how best to maximise hours available. I can absolutely assure you there is no slack whatsoever built in having seen some of these

 

[northwichcat]

From the emergency timetable, the turn around times at Sheffield and Leeds appear to be 10 - 15 minutes, so I see little justification for missing out Normanton.

Calling at all the omitted stations would take at least 10 minutes longer. Even if Northern could have managed to fit in another station call, it might not have been Normanton which got included.

 

[boing_uk]

You really do not have a clue what the Guards role is do you? opening and closing doors...slightly more to it than that.

Oi, calm down sugarplum, dont shoot the messenger.

Perhaps if YOUR Union, instead of spouting bluster and spin, could actually provide the average Joe with some decent factual information your profession might garner more support. Instead, it is going all Chicken Licken about how passengers will surely die if DOO is implemented on Northern.

Not once have I seen any striking conductors at Blackburn or indeed other major stations during the strike days explaining to the passengers the actual reason you're on strike and what the implications DOO will bring and justifying why you're costing ordinary people extra time and money.

On the face of it, the argument is about opening and closing doors with some minor footnotes about how "safety critical" the role of the guard is. Because as far as Joe P sees, the guard opens the doors, closes the doors and sells tickets and thats about it.

Until the RMT actually does a decent job of explaining in simple terms the exact role of the guard, over and above ticket sales and doors and why DOO would be bad for passengers (other than "you might die in some freak and extremely unlikely circumstances) then im sorry but the guards role looks to be going the way of the Liverpool dockers and the deep level miners and that the union is just fighting the death throes of a role which is being surpassed by apparently better and cheaper alternatives.

Simply expecting people, especially the media, to accept what the RMT say without any more justification is not going to garner much support. As for passenger opinion polls, I would refer to this old chestnut. Yes, Prime Minister

 

[FordFocus]

I'm still interested in how Northern expect ASLEF drivers to work DOO when it's not in their contract.

 

[Moonshot]

I'm still interested in how Northern expect ASLEF drivers to work DOO when it's not in their contract.

Diagrams do state DOO for drivers when there is an ECS move, but I suspect there will need to be financial negotiation for trains in public service.

 

[yorksrob]

What would you achieve by that? These emergency diagrams have to take into account the number of hours available and how best to maximise hours available. I can absolutely assure you there is no slack whatsoever built in having seen some of these

Clearly Normanton is seen as a minor stop, therefore the more people who contact them to dispute this, the more the likelihood the emergency timetable will be amended for the next time (and judging by the situation on Southern, we might be in for the long haul anyway).

There may be no slack in an hourly service, but who's to say that passengers at the intermediate stations wouldn't find a hour and a half interval service that stopped at all the stations more useful than an hourly one that missed half the stops out.

 

[FordFocus]

Diagrams do state DOO for drivers when there is an ECS move, but I suspect there will need to be financial negotiation for trains in public service.

All drivers in the country have DOO-NP (Non passsenger) in their contracts. It's been around for many years now.

 

[yorksrob]

Calling at all the omitted stations would take at least 10 minutes longer. Even if Northern could have managed to fit in another station call, it might not have been Normanton which got included.

Fair point, although Normanton always gets lumped in with Darton, even though I'm pretty sure it gets a lot more passengers. I' don't know about the stops South of Barnsley.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

Oi, calm down sugarplum, dont shoot the messenger.

Perhaps if YOUR Union, instead of spouting bluster and spin, could actually provide the average Joe with some decent factual information your profession might garner more support. Instead, it is going all Chicken Licken about how passengers will surely die if DOO is implemented on Northern.

Not once have I seen any striking conductors at Blackburn or indeed other major stations during the strike days explaining to the passengers the actual reason you're on strike and what the implications DOO will bring and justifying why you're costing ordinary people extra time and money.

On the face of it, the argument is about opening and closing doors with some minor footnotes about how "safety critical" the role of the guard is. Because as far as Joe P sees, the guard opens the doors, closes the doors and sells tickets and that's about it.

Until the RMT actually does a decent job of explaining in simple terms the exact role of the guard, over and above ticket sales and doors and why DOO would be bad for passengers (other than "you might die in some freak and extremely unlikely circumstances) then im sorry but the guards role looks to be going the way of the Liverpool dockers and the deep level miners and that the union is just fighting the death throes of a role which is being surpassed by apparently better and cheaper alternatives.

Simply expecting people, especially the media, to accept what the RMT say without any more justification is not going to garner much support. As for passenger opinion polls, I would refer to this old chestnut. Yes, Prime Minister

As flippant as this post may read, it's not entirely wrong. The RMT are completely shocking at explaining anything to it's own members, I wouldn't expect anything better towards the public.

There are many changes on the railway. GSMR brought the biggest change of all, and that is in the form of a big red button that all but makes traditional protection of the line obsolete. We all have to face up to the reality that technology is catching up with us all, and changes are coming if we like it or not.
Safety critical roles have often been used as a means of protecting grades. Let's not be too dismissive though, there has been many incidents over the years where guards have been absolute life savers, but that in itself is not a reason to try and hold back change. It is a very uncomfortable truth, but without the safety critical title, everything else a guard does could be done on the cheap.
Guards have to keep PTS. That is essential for train evacuation, and when we use the word 'evacuation' lets not conjure up images of mass panic in emergencies. Evacuations can be needed in simple incidents of train failures where you have to get passengers off one train onto another via the lineside.

Is there still a role for a well paid second member of train crew? Absolutely, but the role must evolve, and there is plenty of areas where it can evolve for the better of the passenger. I often wonder if some guards object to taking on a more proactive customer service role because they are pretty crap at it to start with. But this is the area where the future lies.

There is another issue that clearly confuses many. Northern are seeking DCO not DOO. I don't believe that they really want to run trains without a second member of crew, but they clearly want that role to be customer related. I don't see an issue with this, but that is because I happen to be damn good with the customer service role, I have often wondered why the hell I'm opening doors when I have passengers wanting to pay their fares, it make no sense, either in the customer relation aspect, or business sense.

Alan Chaplin, the MD of 'Northern' I have spoken to several times. This guy is switched on and approachable, far more approachable than many RMT reps I might add. He is begging the RMT to get around the table and thrash out the areas where DCO will work and where it wont be safe. He wants to pick the brains of his staff who have the hands on day to day experience. That has to be a nettle worth grasping. He has stated there will be no job cuts or loss of pay, obviously in years to come that may change for new starters, but that is something between 'Northern' and anyone who wishes to work for them in the future.

The day will come when all this has to end. Let's hope it ends with sensible people talking like sensible adults, because if the RMT fail to move on, it will be barrelled on us all anyhow, and I for one would much rather reach an agreement than go down the road Southern went down.

 

[Robertj21a]

This is much the same as with so many similar postings, over quite an extended period of time. Surely if the RMT are not fully representing the wishes of their members then those same members need to do something about it - vote them out and replace them with fresh blood.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

This is much the same as with so many similar postings, over quite an extended period of time. Surely if the RMT are not fully representing the wishes of their members then those same members need to do something about it - vote them out and replace them with fresh blood.

Well it's not as easy as it looks. Tell me how it is done. The simple truth is that from the moment you put a cross on a ballot paper you are led by the nose, herded like sheep in the direction the union wants to take you.

Believe me, there are many who are getting pretty fed up already, it is only a matter of time before this particular strike collapses from within. The only action we have is to break the strike, and nobody at the moment wants to be the first, but the RMT donkeys will make it happen.

 

[Robertj21a]

Well it's not as easy as it looks. Tell me how it is done. The simple truth is that from the moment you put a cross on a ballot paper you are led by the nose, herded like sheep in the direction the union wants to take you.

Believe me, there are many who are getting pretty fed up already, it is only a matter of time before this particular strike collapses from within. The only action we have is to break the strike, and nobody at the moment wants to be the first, but the RMT donkeys will make it happen.

Don't the RMT leaders ever get put up for re-election ?

 

[boing_uk]

As flippant as this post may read, it's not entirely wrong.

It was meant to sound flippant; moreover to put across how the strike *appears* to the public and the media - whether that appearance is true or not.

Fact remains that, on the face of it to many, the root of the issue is about who works the doors. And that is entirely the fault of the RMT who come across as a militant and disruptive organisation spouting hyperbole about perceived safety concerns without adequately explaining the intricasies and consequences. Press releases like "RMT Hit Back at xxxx lies" and similar headlines dont really come across as consiliatory and open to negotiation.

As an engineer I can appreciate both sides of the argument and really have no opinion on the dispute either way. The issue is that the RMT simply come across as bullish, archaic and unwilling to be adaptive to change, particularly when change is being unwillingly thrust upon the working lives of many of the very customers the strike is inconveniencing.

 

[WatcherZero]

Dead Mans shoes
1990–2001 Jimmy Knapp (died in office)
2001–14: Bob Crow (died in office)
2014–*: Mick Cash

 

[Kite159]

I saw a Twitter post earlier about how many passenger incidents got logged in GTR land to prove that DOO is unsafe.

However when one of those incidents was a passenger tripping over a barrier in the car park, another was a passenger tripping on stairs, a ticketless passenger getting angry over being caught was another incident, it doesn't seem to be the best "DOO will make trains a muggers paradise" post

https://mobile.twitter.com/NorthernDispute/status/850283070846636033

 

[wingsoveryorks]

I saw a Twitter post earlier about how many passenger incidents got logged in GTR land to prove that DOO is unsafe.

However when one of those incidents was a passenger tripping over a barrier in the car park, another was a passenger tripping on stairs, a ticketless passenger getting angry over being caught was another incident, it doesn't seem to be the best "DOO will make trains a muggers paradise" post

https://mobile.twitter.com/NorthernDispute/status/850283070846636033

What DCO will do is inconvenience disabled passengers if they run trains with no second person. But in the present format, the train wouldn't run anyhow. But put yourself in the position of a wheelchair user watching everyone board a train and you being left.
I will strike tomorrow, but it is only because I want a firm resolution to that particular issue. It can be solved, and the RMT have to play it's part in helping to solve it.

 

[Jonny]

What DCO will do is inconvenience disabled passengers if they run trains with no second person. But in the present format, the train wouldn't run anyhow. But put yourself in the position of a wheelchair user watching everyone board a train and you being left.

That is unfortunate for those left behind, but is it not better for the train to go ahead with most of the passengers than none at all?