Son didn't have railcard with him.

[island]

As a parent with a son who recently realised he didn't have his railcard with him before he got in the train with an online booked ticket, we saw no other option but to buy a replacement ticket at the station.

Yes, an expensive lesson for my son, but much hassle was avoided. It was a Norwich express so his ticket would definitely have been checked.

No-brainer. Not sure how it helps the OP but I can't see how some sort of penalty isn't relevant here.

It would also potentially have been possible to purchase a new Railcard.

 

[EssexGonzo]

It would also potentially have been possible to purchase a new Railcard.

True. But with the hourly Sunday service from Witham to Norwich a few minutes away from leaving we took this one on the chin. Or rather HE took this one on the chin.

 

[mosaicwarts]

I am becoming increasingly concerned as time goes on - my solicitor responded on 10 March. I'll post as soon as I have news.

 

[najaB]

I am becoming increasingly concerned as time goes on - my solicitor responded on 10 March. I'll post as soon as I have news.

Delays of a month or more between responses are not uncommon.

 

[mosaicwarts]

Hello - a million thanks to everyone who helped us with this.

I am delighted to say that my solicitor has today received a proposal from the Prosecutions Manager at TIL.

My son has to make payment of the full rail fare and administration costs, conditional upon acceptance of a final written warning that in future a valid ticket must be purchased before travelling where facilities are provided.

Thank you again.

 

[najaB]

My son has to make payment of the full rail fare and administration costs, conditional upon acceptance of a final written warning that in future a valid ticket must be purchased before travelling where facilities are provided.

That seems a reasonable outcome. Thanks for letting us know.

 

[gray1404]

Thanks for letting us know. What is the final price that they are asking for?

One final piece of advise, pay it prompt

 

[mosaicwarts]

£267.60.

I am very relieved my son's future will not be affected. I hope the thief who stole his bag and caused us this angst and expense is brought to justice one day.

Thank you again.

 

[SA_900]

Not really a fair outcome at all in my opinion. Today, my understanding is that you would not be punished for a mistake like this: http://www.mirror.co.uk/money/good-news-anyone-whos-ever-10067053

 

[Tetchytyke]

That seems a reasonable outcome. Thanks for letting us know.

I don't think it is, given that the Rail Delivery Group were saying that they would allow a refund for first time offences where someone can prove they had a railcard. The fact he could prove he had a railcard, and he can prove that it was stolen, should have been sufficient in this case.

I would recommend that the OP pays the amount being requested and then immediately complains to Passenger Focus to seek a refund of, at the very least, the initial fare paid.

But this thievery sums Transport Investigations up perfectly. The anytime fare is £226.50, which means TIL have added a nice "administration" penalty to the amount, an amount that was unreasonable to charge in the first place. That was nice of them. Still, at least Richard Malin is doing very well out of ripping people off.

 

[Haywain]

I don't think it is, given that the Rail Delivery Group were saying that they would allow a refund for first time offences where someone can prove they had a railcard. The fact he could prove he had a railcard, and he can prove that it was stolen, should have been sufficient in this case.

I would recommend that the OP pays the amount being requested and then immediately complains to Passenger Focus to seek a refund of, at the very least, the initial fare paid.

But this thievery sums Transport Investigations up perfectly. The anytime fare is £226.50, which means TIL have added a nice "administration" penalty to the amount, an amount that was unreasonable to charge in the first place. That was nice of them. Still, at least Richard Malin is doing very well out of ripping people off.

Let's not worry about the fact that it happened twice, so only one can be a first time offence. And even then there is a requirement to pay the full fare due and claim the refund by producing the railcard, which could not be done.

 

[SA_900]

Let's not worry about the fact that it happened twice, so only one can be a first time offence. And even then there is a requirement to pay the full fare due and claim the refund by producing the railcard, which could not be done.

2nd offence?

And how could this not be done?

 

[IanD]

Not really a fair outcome at all in my opinion. Today, my understanding is that you would not be punished for a mistake like this: http://www.mirror.co.uk/money/good-news-anyone-whos-ever-10067053

Let's not worry about the fact that it happened twice, so only one can be a first time offence. And even then there is a requirement to pay the full fare due and claim the refund by producing the railcard, which could not be done.

And that all this happened way before the new guidelines came in.

 

[najaB]

I don't think it is, given that the Rail Delivery Group were saying that they would allow a refund for first time offences where someone can prove they had a railcard. The fact he could prove he had a railcard, and he can prove that it was stolen, should have been sufficient in this case.

This occurred before the rule change. Even if we apply the new rules, the OP's son would have needed to purchase a new ticket on the day - which they didn't do.

 

[mosaicwarts]

Thank you for the suggestion, but I won't be taking it any further.

It has made us both feel extremely anxious about using trains in the future.

I have forwarded the proposal to my son and put the money for the fine in his bank, and can now relax on my 60ieth birthday.

Thanks again everyone.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Let's not worry about the fact that it happened twice, so only one can be a first time offence.

No it didn't. It happened once. The OP's son was spoken to by two people, presumably after a crew change, not one. It's a shame that the first guard/inspector didn't sort it.

And even then there is a requirement to pay the full fare due and claim the refund by producing the railcard, which could not be done.

And if TIL were just asking for the difference between the fare paid and the Anytime single, or even just the Anytime single, I'd have some sympathy with them.

But they're not. They're asking for an amount that is almost £50 higher than the anytime single. I think it is daylight robbery, to be quite honest. But that's what we expect from TIL.

I can understand why the OP is happy to settle it, and that's really what counts, but I don't think the amount charged is fair or reasonable.

 

[najaB]

No it didn't. It happened once. The OP's son was spoken to by two people, presumably after a crew change, not one. It's a shame that the first guard/inspector didn't sort it.

That was my initial reading, but from subsequent posts it seems that the two people were one each on the outward and return journeys.

The inspector on the outward journey asked my son for his name and address only, and told him that he would receive a letter asking for proof of purchase of a railcard.

On the return journey, the inspector spoke to my son, and told him he had to buy a new ticket in the sum of £300 or similar. My son said he was a student and didn't have the money. He told the inspector that I had purchased the tickets for them. The inspector said he could see that they were students, then left them saying he would be back.

He didn't return, or take any details from him.

It's not clear if the letter was in reference to the outward or the return journey.

 

[Tetchytyke]

That was my initial reading, but from subsequent posts it seems that the two people were one each on the outward and return journeys.

Ah right, I'd misinterpreted that.

In that case, yes, the OP's son should have resolved the situation at Plymouth at his leisure, even if he was running late for the first train at Newcastle (and the queues at Newcastle ticket office are normally horrific).

It does still seem harsh though, when, with a crime reference number, the Railcard replacement would have been free of charge.

 

[najaB]

It does still seem harsh though, when, with a crime reference number, the Railcard replacement would have been free of charge.

Ticket + costs isn't that harsh in the grand scheme of things. £267 is less than what was initially requested, so (looking for silver lining) they're £33 up overall.

 

[gray1404]

Thank you for the suggestion, but I won't be taking it any further.

It has made us both feel extremely anxious about using trains in the future.

I have forwarded the proposal to my son and put the money for the fine in his bank, and can now relax on my 60ieth birthday.

Thanks again everyone.

I wonder if you would allow someone on the forum (a member of forum staff) to perhaps take it up on your behalf. I do not know if that is possible to be honest but I am sure I will be quickly told if it is or isn't. Although I respect your decision, it won't cost you anything to take it to Transport Focus.

A couple of things, have they provided a breakdown of the charges? More specifically how much has they charged as the rail fare? I ask this question because there is an argument that they should only charge for the Anytime Single Route: Not via London rather then the Any Permitted fare.

How much did you spend on legal fees on top? I think you (or your son) has been hard done to here.

And yes, if a railcard is lost or stolen it is possible to get a replacement - be that free of charge with a crime number or for an admin fee without one. So it is not like the OP son pretended to have been issued with a railcard when they haven't. Not acceptable. I would seriously advise paying this off and then disputing it. Moreover, in light of the change of policy in light of not being able to provide a railcard on the train. It is not like the traveller was without a ticket at all.

I once had a member of staff at Transport Investigations (who I believe was acting on behalf of Arriva Trains Wales) approach me on a platform to ask to look at my ticket because I was "clearly avoiding the ticket barrier" as I got off the train, a London Midland service. I went and had a look at a GWR HST that was in the opposite platform. My friend who was with me, a driver for another TOC (who is ex BR) who was also demanded to show his ticket too. He showed his boxes and I showed my comp LM day pass. She then demanded our details as she hadn't seen either of those tickets before. My friend wiped the floor with her and got the Station Manager involved who told them to back off. The Station Manager and platform staff said they cause nothing but trouble. Needless to say we didn't provide any details. I contacted ATW to complain about what had happened at the station THEY manage and how THEIR contractor had behaved. They were adamant that TIL act on behalf of "all the train companies" and I needed to complain to them directly. When I spoke to TIL about the rude conduct they first said there was nothing they could do as I "hadn't been reported for anything." When I pressed this they said that I would need to either submit a complaint in writing or by email PROVIDED it contained my hand written signature. This seemed too close to the procedure they follow when they try to pin a charge on somebody so I didn't take it any further.

 

[mosaicwarts]

Thank you very much for offering, but we are fast approaching the first anniversary of my husband's death, and I would prefer to have closure on this.

 

[cuccir]

Understandable. I'm glad that this is behind you! I agree with others that your son has been very strictly treated here - I still can't quite understand why greater consideration of the circumstances was given. But, fundamentally, it's over

 

[theironroad]

Thank you for the suggestion, but I won't be taking it any further.

It has made us both feel extremely anxious about using trains in the future.

I have forwarded the proposal to my son and put the money for the fine in his bank, and can now relax on my 60ieth birthday.

Thanks again everyone.

I'd probably not pursue it either, sometimes it's better to draw a line under it and move on.

Please don't let this one incident put you off using trains again, maybe just double check all travels docs such as tickets and railcards are in order, in date etc.

Finally, hope you had a great 60th birthday and hopefully it was as sunny and nice as it is where i am....

 

[yorkie]

I wonder if you would allow someone on the forum (a member of forum staff) to perhaps take it up on your behalf....

I think we're all too busy these days. For example I have multiple jobs in addition to my voluntary work with the forum. I did proof read the OP's letter and provide some assistance via PM but it's rare that I would have time to even do that.

mosaicwarts - I would just move on. I would still travel by rail. Justice can be served by avoiding buying any tickets priced by CrossCountry (XC), and by using ticket splitting websites. XC may have gained a couple of hundred quid, but people reading advice on this forum will be costing them £thousands. Spread the word: when travelling with XC, use sites like trainsplit.com and ensure you pay a lower fare, and any fare you do pay will be distributed among less dubious companies. Feel free to ask for pre-travel advice in Fares Advice & Policy.

XC won this particular battle but they're losing the war against passengers.

 

[Greenback]

I agree with Yorkie. Please do not turn your back on rail travel because of this one incidnet.