My idea for provision for more services at Acton Bridge

[copernicium112]

I was at Acton Bridge yesterday and noticed periods of at least ten minutes where there were no trains in sight. Could this "free" capacity be used for more extra calls at Acton Bridge? For instance, something like possibly a Crewe - Preston stopper? This would call at Winsford, Hartford, Acton Bridge, Warrington BQ, Wigan NW, Euxton Balshaw Lane, Leyland and Preston. The other annoying thing is that there are no services to Warrington from Acton Bridge, to get there from WBQ currently you have to go to Crewe and double back.

 

[Clip]

How does that '10 minutes with nothing in sight' look a little bit furtehr at places like Warrington BQ and Wigan and Preston?

There is always a bigger picture when it comes to timetabling,.

 

[Ianno87]

I was at Acton Bridge yesterday and noticed periods of at least ten minutes where there were no trains in sight. Could this "free" capacity be used for more extra calls at Acton Bridge? For instance, something like possibly a Crewe - Preston stopper? This would call at Winsford, Hartford, Acton Bridge, Warrington BQ, Wigan NW, Euxton Balshaw Lane, Leyland and Preston. The other annoying thing is that there are no services to Warrington from Acton Bridge, to get there from WBQ currently you have to go to Crewe and double back.

Chances are the "gap" you saw was capacity that cannot be used by a train due to lack of capacity somewhere else. E.g. that 10 minutes is easily enough for a Pendolino to run down a preceding freight towards Warrington Bank Quay, whilst you can't send something towards Liverpool instead as you'll hit something (two trains one behind the other) coming off the CLC route from Hunts Cross.

 

[Polarbear]

I can't really see the need for extra calls at Acton Bridge. Although it's close to Weaverham, the area is generally very rural and as such, demand can't be that great? There would also be issues with attracting additional people to use that station in that the car park is quite small too.

The only attraction of any note in that area appears to be the Hazel Pear pub!

 

[Holly]

Hard to believe now, but Acton Bridge station could be quite crowded on summer Saturday mornings in the early 1950s.
The station should have been moved then to nearby Weaverham on the quad track section of the mainline.
Too late now, the then crowds have grown old, moved away or just died of age.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

The only attraction of any note in that area appears to be the Hazel Pear pub!

If you ever find it open that is.

There would be more call to re-open Ditton Junction

 

[6Gman]

Time for my suggestion of Stockport - Knutsford - Northwich - Acton Bridge - Runcorn - LSP - Lime Street!

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Time for my suggestion of Stockport - Knutsford - Northwich - Acton Bridge - Runcorn - LSP - Lime Street!

Wouldn't re-opening the Lymm/Warburton line be easier ?

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I was at Acton Bridge yesterday and noticed periods of at least ten minutes where there were no trains in sight. Could this "free" capacity be used for more extra calls at Acton Bridge? For instance, something like possibly a Crewe - Preston stopper? This would call at Winsford, Hartford, Acton Bridge, Warrington BQ, Wigan NW, Euxton Balshaw Lane, Leyland and Preston. The other annoying thing is that there are no services to Warrington from Acton Bridge, to get there from WBQ currently you have to go to Crewe and double back.

Believe it or not a few years back a number of staff members made just such a suggestion to Northern, I think as a reaction to VHF reducing the frequency of Preston/Wigan/Warrington to Crewe services. By all accounts it was looked at as a serious suggestion but the numbers simply didn't stack up.

Wouldn't re-opening the Lymm/Warburton line be easier ?

Apart from the route being blocked by the M6 and the Ship Canal bridge at Latchford needing serious rehabilitation (ie replacement) before it could possibly carry trains again. Not sure the well heeled residents of Lymm would even want "rattly noisy trains" spoiling their environment.

 

[atillathehunn]

It's not just about Acton Bridge though. It's about Hartford (and Northwich - though not directly on the mainline) and all the associate villages. There's a large number of commuters heading north for work and school, all of whom have to drive. The bus link is a joke and the roads are bad.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Believe it or not a few years back a number of staff members made just such a suggestion to Northern, I think as a reaction to VHF reducing the frequency of Preston/Wigan/Warrington to Crewe services. By all accounts it was looked at as a serious suggestion but the numbers simply didn't stack up.

North Western Trains proposed, just after privatisation, a Crewe-Carlisle stopping service using Class 309s, which didn't go ahead as they were not allowed to start a new service using slammers.

 

[driver_m]

Wouldn't the easiest solution be to extend the lime Street - bank quay stopper to Crewe? There's a huge gap at bank quay where no trains run, nearly everything is squashed in and out during a period around 20 past the hour. (iirc one service has been spaced out better but there has to be some gaps in service. Crewe I'd presume being the main issue.

 

[Ianno87]

Wouldn't the easiest solution be to extend the lime Street - bank quay stopper to Crewe? There's a huge gap at bank quay where no trains run, nearly everything is squashed in and out during a period around 20 past the hour. (iirc one service has been spaced out better but there has to be some gaps in service. Crewe I'd presume being the main issue.

That huge gap at Bank Quay is probably where a couple of trains drop off the Liverpool route onto the WCML south of Weaver Jn (including the 'slow' Liverpool-Brum calling at Hartford and Winsford/Acton Bridge.

Northbound, both VWC services are flighted closely together (as well as the TPE north of Golborne Jn) to give the remaining 40 minutes or so of the hour over to slow moving freight services chugging their ways up to Shap and Beattock summits.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There's still no answer to the problem of making all long distance trains call at Warrington and Wigan.
The RUS has for years talked about faster Scotland services, with other services picking up the intermediate stops.
But nothing is in the pipeline except Alliance's still fictitious 2-hourly Blackpool service.
LM had a foot in the door with a single Birmingham-Preston, but the next WM franchise won't do anything similar.
DfT could have specified that the BHM-LIV that is to go via Stoke could also go via WBQ - but it didn't.
The repeated extension of the VT franchise on an "as is" basis doesn't help either.
Reallly, it's Northern territory. But it's not in a PTE area with all the agitprop for better services.
Actually, I don't think Acton Bridge can support more trains, but the wider route (Crewe-Preston) does need additional regional/local services.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Northbound, both VWC services are flighted closely together (as well as the TPE north of Golborne Jn) to give the remaining 40 minutes or so of the hour over to slow moving freight services chugging their ways up to Shap and Beattock summits.

Slow moving freight that simply doesn't exist. Very little freight during the day between Crewe and Carlisle.

As for additional services between Crewe and Preston there is space in the timetable for them. Probably not for an all stations stopper but that would be pointless anyway. LM proposed an hourly Birmingham - Preston service and produced a timetable a few years ago but the ORR rejected it on the grounds of revenue abstraction. LM introduced a 3rd tph between New St and Euston instead.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

. Not sure the well heeled residents of Lymm would even want "rattly noisy trains" spoiling their environment.

though widening the Thelwall viaduct and having a truckers service station on the M6 is fine.

 

[yorkie]

I've edited your thread title so it now complies with our Forum Rules and I've also moved it into the appropriate forum.

I was at Acton Bridge yesterday and noticed periods of at least ten minutes where there were no trains in sight. Could this "free" capacity be used for more extra calls at Acton Bridge? For instance, something like possibly a Crewe - Preston stopper? This would call at Winsford, Hartford, Acton Bridge, Warrington BQ, Wigan NW, Euxton Balshaw Lane, Leyland and Preston.

I agree there may well be capacity at Acton Bridge but there needs to be capacity at all locations from Crewe to Preston, for such a path to be created. Such a service would be overtaken so you would need provision for that.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Slow moving freight that simply doesn't exist. Very little freight during the day between Crewe and Carlisle.

The "slow moving" freight, such as still exists (ie coal) has been running via the S&C for some years. The remaining freights over Shap are nearly all Class 4s (75mph max) but being predominantly diesel powered do make hard work of the long climbs. And there are still a number of these each way during the day though certainly not in every hour.

There's still no answer to the problem of making all long distance trains call at Warrington and Wigan.
The RUS has for years talked about faster Scotland services, with other services picking up the intermediate stops.
But nothing is in the pipeline except Alliance's still fictitious 2-hourly Blackpool service.
LM had a foot in the door with a single Birmingham-Preston, but the next WM franchise won't do anything similar.
DfT could have specified that the BHM-LIV that is to go via Stoke could also go via WBQ - but it didn't.
The repeated extension of the VT franchise on an "as is" basis doesn't help either.
Reallly, it's Northern territory. But it's not in a PTE area with all the agitprop for better services.
Actually, I don't think Acton Bridge can support more trains, but the wider route (Crewe-Preston) does need additional regional/local services.

Faster Anglo-Scottish services are political aspirations not commercial ones. As long as trains take more than 3 hours to get from London to Glasgow flying will be quicker for an awful lot of journeys. It will need an extension of HS2 (western arm) to Scotland to make any real difference. Any more local service between Crewe and Preston needs to be in addition to current services, not to replace stops on long-distance services. But the market for it isn't that strong.

though widening the Thelwall viaduct and having a truckers service station on the M6 is fine.

Perception is a wonderful thing!

 

[notlob.divad]

Wouldn't the easiest solution be to extend the lime Street - bank quay stopper to Crewe? There's a huge gap at bank quay where no trains run, nearly everything is squashed in and out during a period around 20 past the hour. (iirc one service has been spaced out better but there has to be some gaps in service. Crewe I'd presume being the main issue.

I thought about that, but with the intention of it going toward Nantwich and reversing through Middlewich to Crewe.

If a WCML stopping service was to run, it could be over taken by calling at Newton-Le-Willows, alternatively you could re-instate the St Helens Junction to Central link and run it that way. But a business case for that would have Acton Bridge quite low down on the potential benefit list.

 

[Bertie the bus]

The "slow moving" freight, such as still exists (ie coal) has been running via the S&C for some years. The remaining freights over Shap are nearly all Class 4s (75mph max) but being predominantly diesel powered do make hard work of the long climbs. And there are still a number of these each way during the day though certainly not in every hour.

There are a "number" of freights during the day. And that number is about 3 in each direction.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

There are a "number" of freights during the day. And that number is about 3 in each direction.

The number can vary on a daily basis. The problem is that most of it is relatively time-sensitive intermodal traffic. Any attempt to re-route it or force it to run overnight could easily drive such traffic away. Ultimately it's a question of whether the railway network is solely for passengers or can it still carry useful flows of freight. I doubt that any suggestion that freight be banned over Shap during the day would go down too well with decision makers inside or outside the railway. There has been a certain amount of talk over the years about providing more decent length freight loops on various busy routes but it seems little progress has been made.

 

[Bertie the bus]

The number of freights don't vary much by day. There is the Wed only clay tanks, which doesn't run every week, and that is pretty much it.

I have not suggested freight be banned. I've just corrected a statement about supposed slow moving freight on the northern section of the WCML taking up space in the timetable. There is virtually none. That is a fact so I'm not sure why you are continuing to contradict me.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

The number of freights don't vary much by day. There is the Wed only clay tanks, which doesn't run every week, and that is pretty much it.

I have not suggested freight be banned. I've just corrected a statement about supposed slow moving freight on the northern section of the WCML taking up space in the timetable. There is virtually none. That is a fact so I'm not sure why you are continuing to contradict me.

But some remains and will continue to do so as long as political will determines that the WCML is a mixed traffic railway. As such a certain number of suitable paths must be provided and these will inevitably have an impact on how passenger timetables are constructed. There are other points on the network where similar issues exist: GWML east of Reading and parts of the former Southern Region are under the same sort of pressures. And who knows how a reshaped post-Brexit economy might affect things!

 

[frodshamfella]

I can't really see the need for extra calls at Acton Bridge. Although it's close to Weaverham, the area is generally very rural and as such, demand can't be that great? There would also be issues with attracting additional people to use that station in that the car park is quite small too.

The only attraction of any note in that area appears to be the Hazel Pear pub!

Acton Bridge is one of my local stations which I use particularly for going to Liverpool, I think it could do with a few more services some annoying gaps in middle of the day, however the biggest problem for passengers is the car park is filled very quickly in the morning, so anyone coming later in the day can struggle to park. There seems to be an inability by London Midland or Network Rail to do something about it, even though many people and the parish council have tried to get some action. The car park was once much larger, but land was taken for storage or something. Its now fenced off, however nothing seems to be done with it. Some Sunday trains would be nice too !

 

[frodshamfella]

If you ever find it open that is.

There would be more call to re-open Ditton Junction

its being refurbished will be reopening soon.

 

[Mag_seven]

The seems to be an inability by London Midland or Railtrack to do something about it, even though many people and the parish council have tried to get some action.

Railtrack! Where have you been for the last 15 years? :roll:

 

[frodshamfella]

It's not just about Acton Bridge though. It's about Hartford (and Northwich - though not directly on the mainline) and all the associate villages. There's a large number of commuters heading north for work and school, all of whom have to drive. The bus link is a joke and the roads are bad.

The bus link has recently got worse, now nothing on a Saturday. In fact rural bus services in this area of Cheshire in general are poor.

 

[frodshamfella]

Wouldn't the easiest solution be to extend the lime Street - bank quay stopper to Crewe? There's a huge gap at bank quay where no trains run, nearly everything is squashed in and out during a period around 20 past the hour. (iirc one service has been spaced out better but there has to be some gaps in service. Crewe I'd presume being the main issue.

Good idea.

 

[frodshamfella]

When Halton Curve opens some passengers would be drawn to Frodsham from villages between the two stations, being that an hourly service is planned from there to Liverpool and I guess this will increase in time too.

 

[Ianno87]

Good idea.

A very, very cursory glance at the timetable suggests that might actually work fairly well.

On the Up, you'd be chased out of Warrington by the Edinburgh-Birmingham-Euston about 8 minutes behind, so you'd probably have to go Slow Line at Acton Bridge to be overtakem by it (meaning the one of the hourly direct Warrington-Crewe services would overtake the other)

On the Down, you'd have to depart Crewe somewhere ahead of the xx33 'fast' Birmingham-Liverpool, and behind the xx10 Euston-Birmingham-Scotland.

You'd get about a 10-15 minute turnround at Crewe, using only one extra diagram.

Only trouble I can see is you'd need to be arriving into bay Platforms 9 or 10 about the same time as the xx10 Scotland is departing Platform 11 - can't recall if these moves can be done in parallel or not.