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"Operational incident" between Barnham and Havant 03/04

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AlterEgo

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Due to an Operational Incident between Anytown and Beeford, train services between these stations may be Cancelled, Revised or Delayed by up to 90 minutes. Replacement Road Transport is in operation between these stations. Disruption is expected until 16:00 today.

Why is that, or variations upon insufficient? Per ATOC (RDG) guidelines that is a perfect disruption message for Passenger Information During Disruption. It says what the problem is (operational incident), the impact of that problem (cancelled/revised/delayed) and Advice to passengers for alternatives etc. For any kind of serious disruption that would have to be reviewed and updated every 20 minutes, or when significant changes to impact or advice occur; whichever is sooner.

The problem with PIDD is it's actually quite old now and doesn't use Plain English best practices.

Firstly, and a bit pedantically, you can't start a sentence with "due to" as it creates an adjectival phrase.

Secondly, the form of words tells people what the excuse is first, and follows with the advice. As has been pointed out upthread, it's more important that passengers know what they ought to do rather than the reason. It's good practice in any form of communications (particularly when dealing with comms in an information-saturated environment) to front-load the most important information.

That isn't to say the reason isn't important. People have paid fares and deserve to know why their service isn't going to be delivered as advertised. The aviation industry is at least as safety-conscious and image-conscious as the railway - and with a significant portion of users having a fear of using it - but there's no harm in saying that something has gone wrong. "Operational incident" isn't acceptable; it isn't transparent, or descriptive. Just say what the problem is in plain English. A train went past a red signal so it was automatically stopped and investigated. A train mistakenly took the wrong turn and now needs to reverse. A train driver got given the wrong stopping list. A guard was left behind at a station by accident.
 
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JN114

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It's not unheard of when a train that has had a SPAD for that to then cause signalling issues on adjacent lines, or for the driver to allege the signal was faulty. I don't know the ins and outs of this particular incident; but other trains being delayed through the area due to a fault with the signalling system is entirely plausible- especially if the incident train has moved on to a more suitable location. Or it could just be an innocent mistake or misunderstanding by the SN Info Controller responsible for putting the message out, or a totally unrelated incident that happened to be going on at the same time. I seriously doubt there is any mileage in Southern lying about delay reasons - for one what's in it for them?
 

bnm

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I seriously doubt there is any mileage in Southern lying about delay reasons - for one what's in it for them?

Reputation. Particularly when it's a fairly tarnished 'brand' at the moment.
 

boing_uk

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I'm sorry but it is. There is a thing called the Data Protection Act. Someone's disciplinary record counts as sensitive personal information. I assure you if a company releases this they will be for the high jump.

The DPA would come in to play if you were to say "Driver X was in charge of Train Y and something untoward happened".

It would not come in to play in the slightest if it was just said "Something untoward happened with Train Y"; and it would also go some way to easing customers minds and allowing more informed decisions to be made. If Train Y for example passed a signal at red, releasing that to the public isnt going to harm anyone because it is a fact.

The general public, beleive it or not, can handle specific information and can usually make a reasonably educated guess as to the effect it may have on their immediate journey.
 

bb21

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On the issue of giving information to the public, I think 'Operational Incident' is too woolly. Particularly when the TOC concerned then gives out misinformation saying it was a signal failure. A Category A SPAD is precisely the opposite according the industry's own definition:

Wrong. The "operating incident" is a combination of the two, and some more.

Have a look at CCIL if you don't believe me.
 

bnm

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Wrong. The "operating incident" is a combination of the two, and some more.

I'm merely saying that the choice of words conveyed to the public is too woolly.

Have a look at CCIL if you don't believe me.

Chinese Church in London? ;):p

I do know what CCIL is really. And I would look if I could but I can't.
 
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boing_uk

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Thing is, we don't know why. Cat A SPAD isn't necessarily the driver's fault, just take a look at 1B47 at Broughty Ferry for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BsqkA7zES8

The only people harping on about blaming the driver seem to be those in the immediate industry. As far as I can tell (Ive not read each and every post) those who are calling for slightly more detailed information have not once mentioned using it for blaming the driver.

Nor does there appear to be anyone calling for it to be referred to as Cat A/B/C SAPD in any public release; until an investigation is known, the Category is irrelevent. The facts are that a train passed a signal at red; that is all that needed to be said.
 

455driver

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Thing is, we don't know why. Cat A SPAD isn't necessarily the driver's fault, just take a look at 1B47 at Broughty Ferry for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BsqkA7zES8

A CAT A SPAD is most definitely the drivers fault, if it is equipment failure, deliberately put back in front of the train or some other reason then it isnt a CAT A SPAD.

Of course they wont be sure it is a CAT A until it has been investigated!
 

GW43125

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A CAT A SPAD is most definitely the drivers fault, if it is equipment failure, deliberately put back in front of the train or some other reason then it isnt a CAT A SPAD.

Of course they wont be sure it is a CAT A until it has been investigated!

If the definition of Cat A is that the signal was displayed in sufficient time to stop in normal circumstances, then low adhesion through no fault of the driver's own would surely also be Cat A?
 

455driver

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If the definition of Cat A is that the signal was displayed in sufficient time to stop in normal circumstances, then low adhesion through no fault of the driver's own would surely also be Cat A?

If its low adhesion then its not a CAT A, what is so difficult to understand?
 

Llanigraham

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Why should the truth be withheld and instead misinformation given?

What "misinformation?
There was none.
There was an incident.
It was reported.
Nothing more was required.
End of the matter.

Perhaps you need to check the dictionary definition of "incident".
 

tsr

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I seriously doubt there is any mileage in Southern lying about delay reasons - for one what's in it for them?

In this case there was no need, and they did not.

The stories behind all the different uses of delay reasons do occasionally have their politics, and there are renditions of situations which may not convey an impartial picture. I will stop short of calling it "lying", but there's no way the delay reasons are always unbiased. This probably applies to at least a few TOCs over the decades of privatisation.

Wrong. The "operating incident" is a combination of the two, and some more.

Have a look at CCIL if you don't believe me.

I won't bite too hard, but no failure of the signalling equipment was reported.

There was, however, an incident, and signals were involved. I shall say no more.
 

tsr

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In which case, internal communications should refrain from saying so.

Unless the driver is adamant that it was their error, which is actually remarkably common - and in any case the log will go into further detail on who alleges what, for those who need to know!
 

bb21

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I won't bite too hard, but no failure of the signalling equipment was reported.

There was, however, an incident, and signals were involved. I shall say no more.

We must be looking at different reports then. Mine definitely has more to it than the SPAD, which was also part of the reason for the extended delay.
 

bnm

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What "misinformation?
There was none.
There was an incident.
It was reported.
Nothing more was required.
End of the matter.

Okay. Essentially keep the travelling public in the dark. Tell them something that tells them nothing. Then tell them something later that isn't really true.

Perhaps you need to check the dictionary definition of "incident"

Humour me. What have I missed with the definition? While you're looking in your OED, flick back a few pages and look up "hidebound".


I've got a book of quotations too:

The truth will set you free

A lie can get round the world before the truth has got its boots on
 

Bevan Price

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What "misinformation?
There was none.
There was an incident.
It was reported.
Nothing more was required.
End of the matter.

Perhaps you need to check the dictionary definition of "incident".


No criticism is intended of any railway staff. But I think that the railway is possibly suffering a bit of public backlash because sections of "big business" have long tried to obscure their own incompetence by using vague generalised excuses, and the public have become weary of such treatment.

In this case, all the passenger really needs to know is a best estimate of when his/her train will arrive - and preferably what alternative arrangements might need to be made.
 

LAX54

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Within the railway, such an incident is always dealt with and called by the term 'Operating Incident' its good enough for railstaff. then it should be good enough for those who have no real reason to know.
 

bb21

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The only people harping on about blaming the driver seem to be those in the immediate industry.

I think many in the immediate industry have had first hand experience (either on the receiving end themselves or being witnesses to such occurrences) so are understandably sceptical. It is not limited to drivers either, but any front-line staff.

Such people may not exist on here, but they very most definitely exist as a significant minority amongst the general public.

I won't repeat my position on further transparency in the industry as I have mentioned that a few times in past threads. All I will point out is that TOCs have to be very careful releasing information apportioning blame into the public domain, as things may not always be what they seem at first, and often where blame lies can change when you dig a little deeper into a case.
 

bb21

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No criticism is intended of any railway staff. But I think that the railway is possibly suffering a bit of public backlash because sections of "big business" have long tried to obscure their own incompetence by using vague generalised excuses, and the public have become weary of such treatment.

That's a very good point. Using such vague descriptors is definitely not helping with confidence in the industry at the moment. I feel there is a need for the industry to spend some real effort learning how to be more open and informative using the most appropriate language without letting off too much unnecessary detail about an incident. It is also not just about what you say, but doing it consistently and making information available as soon as is practicable (which applies equally to internal communication such as Tyrell).

People appreciate some context of the situation they find themselves in so a little detail goes a long way (even if sometimes such detail provide no additional useful information to an industry outsider, eg. "a fault with the doors" as opposed to "a train fault", not necessarily technical jargon). It can be as simple as one or two sentences. It projects the image of a company being frank, and leaves a much better impression. In some cases it may not be possible to do so, but if the industry can start doing this where possible then I am sure most of the customers would not mind the small number of occasions when no further details can be provided, if informed as such.

Some TOCs are better at it than others, but we need the whole industry to start doing the same.

In this case, all the passenger really needs to know is a best estimate of when his/her train will arrive - and preferably what alternative arrangements might need to be made.

Absolutely. Customers do not always need to know much about the incident, but they always appreciate some pointers in how long a delay they should prepare themselves for.

These should actively be provided, even if just the best estimate at the time, and updated as things progress at regular intervals, or when new developments come to light. If this is not possible, it is always best to be honest and say that, than be silent on the matter.

Ultimately you can't please everyone. There will always be those who want to know just that bit more than what is provided in the public domain and the line has to be drawn somewhere. The industry will not be able to get it right every time, but if we can get it right for most people consistently then that should in time improve passenger satisfaction in that particular area.

I do know what CCIL is really. And I would look if I could but I can't.

It's Network Rail's incident database. I don't know where you got your information from so I assumed you had some sort of access.
 

DarloRich

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May I give an example I always give in these situations to illustrate the point? You may recall several years ago a lady immolated herself in a train toilet causing all manner of unpleasantness for the people involved and those caught up in the incident.

I was on a train I think 3 behind the affected train. We left MK on time heading south but did not go far before we were brought to a stand. Immediately the guard announced we would be delayed as there was a failed train ahead blocking the line. He soon returned to inform us the OHLE was off because of the failed train and all lines were blocked.

Within a a few minutes he was announcing that medical assistance had been summoned to the train ahead, followed by the emergency services were dealing with an incident followed about an hour later by the fire brigade were dealing with a train fire followed another hour later by confirmation there had been a suicide.

By this time people were openly calling the guard a liar and challenging him, aggressively, to tell the truth. It got so bad several of us had to step in an point out to one particular chap that having a go at the guard meant having a go at all of us!

The poor guard was simply informing passengers, openly, about a developing situation with the information he was given yet was criticised for doing so. If he had stuck to "operating incident" until it was clear exactly what was happening he would have saved himself a lot of bother!
 

pompeyfan

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I'm internal and personally I think operating incident is too woolly and can understand why the passengers get frustrated when they're told that, but the line needs to be drawn long before the finger can get pointed at someone. With all operating incidents it needs to be investigated, that'll involve getting statements, FFCCTV and OTMR downloads before they can comfortably say why it happened, although OTMR can apparently be downloaded instantly and remotely. I'm too of the same mindset that if you tell some passengers a train had a SPAD, then calls that drivers are incompetent would be all over social media instantly.

From what I can see said train was delayed there for 90+ minutes due to the operating incident, with a signalling issue a couple of hours later at Barnham. According to SN's own twitter the driver had to be taken off the train at the scene. Said train appears to have emptied at Emsworth, reversed at Havant and ran off somewhere. All of this information was on open access sources.
 
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Surreytraveller

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Utter and complete RUBBISH!!
I suggest you read this thread and apologise for that comment.

I stand by what I said. No apology will be forthcoming. If people cannot accept that there are f*** sometimes and that people are not infallible, then there will continue to be 'operational incidents'. I'm not saying that some are not preventable, but a lot of them are.
 

Surreytraveller

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I reckon you need to 'chill out' quite a bit, particularly as you have no idea what the facts are.

I think there are others who need to chill out a bit and just simply understand that some passengers would like a truthful explanation as to why they've been excessively delayed.
 

Dieseldriver

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A CAT A SPAD is most definitely the drivers fault, if it is equipment failure, deliberately put back in front of the train or some other reason then it isnt a CAT A SPAD.

Of course they wont be sure it is a CAT A until it has been investigated!

Not entirely correct, Category A SPADs are split into additional categories. If a SPAD occurs where there was the correct sequence leading to it, no traction faults and no exceptionally poor railhead conditions, it would go down to driver error.
However, Cat As have been caused by incorrect authority being given to pass the signal at danger, a fault with the train or, excessively poor railhead conditions meaning the train is unable to stop at the signal in time. In these cases, a Category A SPAD has still occurred but the driver may be completely blameless.
 
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