Wish there was a camera on the wall when the EU hand May and Davis the bill for £50bn. If they refuse to pay it you can guarantee there will be no trade deal and thus massive economic repercussions from going back to WTO rules. She may keep harping on about the country coming together blah blah blah but the country has never been more divided and I will never get behind Brexit. I don't believe in it and truly hope we rejoin as soon as the current Government is voted out in 2020.
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EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...
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bramling
Veteran Member
Being held to ransom by the EU is a good reason why we're leaving in my book.
The prospects for re-joining are virtually zero. For a start we would almost certainly be required to join the Euro. Even Sturgeon seems against that, and with good reason- it would be a total disaster. Your only hope is if we somehow don't actually leave, but re-joining from scratch is utterly unrealistic.
Meanwhile, I have a champagne ready for lunchtime today, plus some fireworks for the evening.
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Well, it's going to hurt them a lot more than it hurts us. They will lose the CAP payments for a start, and in the event of WTO rules it will devastate parts of the low-to-medium value new car market through increased costs; doubly so if non-EU-made cars are cheaper. Besides, the bill is unenforceable anyway and is plucked from thin air.
Who do you think gets hurt more, the country of 50M trying to sell cars or the market of 250M who want to buy cars (who also happen to make cars)?
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Have you forgotten the millions who voted "Leave" in the referendum who attained the majority share of the total vote? I note that you seem to absolve those who were the ones who democratically cast their votes, in your efforts to make political points scoring. Are you saying that those who voted "Leave" did not fully understand the implications of doing so and were of the type of voter who would be swayed by the viewing in the media of the large advert of "extra money for the NHS" on the side of the "leave" bus or the implications of "reaping what you sow".
"Let him who is without sin cast the first stone" is something that suddenly springs to mind. I wonder what track your postings would have taken had those who voted came in a similar majority to "Remain" as was the case with the "Leave" statistic?
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I am so glad that the UK seeks connections with other countries after leaving the EU. We had already the USA with its fine leader Donald Trump. Now in Europe you look especially at that democratic country called Turkey. It must be good way forward of course.
Not all of them, of course, but it would be naive to believe that the majority of those who voted (on either side of the argument) fully understood the ramifications of their choice given that we didn't (and still don't) know exactly what Britain's post-Brexit relationship with the EU will look and feel like.
zuriblue
Member
Happy lemming day, everybody
I once shared a hotel breakfast with a Downing Street insider, and when he told me what he did I told him UK party politics had proved itself incapable of delivering on its promise of a fair society. He admitted that governing a country of 60m people was essentially impossible, and in a roundabout way said the important thing was to give the appearance of being in control.
While I have no reason to doubt his sincerity, I don't believe the EU have a better idea based on scale alone, and suspect it's the size of the illusion that's the difference. A conspiracy theorist imagines the world to be in the control of a shadowy elite (The Illuminati, World Bankers, Bilderberg, the EU, the "Government"). I think no one is in charge and the sooner people catch on to the idea the less we'll rely on "them" to sort things out.
There's a lot that we disagree on, but this I agree with completely.
Kite159
Veteran Member
Just remember, the day after the vote one of the most trending topics on Google was "What is the EU?"
The people in charge of the country are not the MPs (even if they give that impression) but are the senior civil servants in the shadows, pulling the strings of the short-term thinking MPs
KN1
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Yes Corbyn will storm to victory in 2020 all the signs point to it.
WelshBluebird
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Are you denying that those things had any impact at all on some voters?
And are you also saying that everyone who voted leave fully understood what the EU is in correct detail, all of the implications of us leaving etc?
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Indeed. I consider myself reasonably-well read up on politics but it's eight months on from the vote and I'm still finding stuff out about the impact of Brexit. Now consider those who get their news and views from Facebook - were/are they a fully informed electorate? I think not.
WelshBluebird
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Exactly this.
bramling
Veteran Member
The same can be applied to any election, and doubtlessly applies to the remain vote too.
What's the alternative? A Saddam Hussein style election where there is only one option on the ballot paper?
Reality is every person eligible to vote in the referendum was a grown mature adult, and the referendum came at the end of a long campaign- both official and unofficial. Personally I am pleased with the result, however either way it's about taking responsibility for actions. Once we have left there is little realistic prospect of rejoining from scratch, so best for everyone to much be on and make the best of it.
You are aware that an enormous amount of the tax income to the treasury comes from the city? Thousands of jobs in the city are being relocated to back within the EU now we are leaving with many thousands more hanging by a thread on May and Davis negotiating a free trade deal which is highly unlikely by the way May and Davis are talking. This is going to be very very bad for both us and the EU
Has Mrs May forgotten the 48% who voted remain? Or is she going to constantly bleat on about accepting it and getting behind her version of Brexit? The only reason she is constantly pleading for the country to be united behind Brexit is because she knows exactly how divided she has made the country.
She and her colleagues have chosen to ignore the views of the 48% just as they have chosen to ignore Remain majorities in two out of the four components of the UK. Brexit won by a very small majority, so it seems unreasonable for her to have acted over the last nine months as though there had been an overwhelming mandate for the really hard Brexit that her Tory colleagues in the government (plus IDS) want rather than try to find a compromise position that would take the UK out of the EU but attempt at least to nod towards some of the things of most concern to those who voted Remain. But British politics does not do compromise -- for decades it has operated on the basis of "I'm in charge now, I'll do just what I want". And that's what May is up to, even with the illogicality of talking of one Union as a "precious, precious Union" whilst desperately rushing to leave another one -- even if the former was essentially a creation of empire and the second is a voluntary assocation of democracies (in so far as any modern states are democracies).
furnessvale
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Yes, all those who voted to remain were desperately looking at what they had voted to remain in.
Corbyn is a waste of space. Right now we need a strong opposition leader and Corbyn isn't it.
I was impressed by Keir Starmer's outing on question time. And the UKIP woman made David Davis look sane in comparison (despite his original claim we were exiting the ECHR, which is certainly not what was voted for! He later retracted that and said he meant the ECJ)
WelshBluebird
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Interestingly Farage has just been on Radio 2 arguing that Theresa May should unilaterally guarantee the rights of EU citizens currently living in the UK and not use them as a negotiating tool. It says a lot about May when even Farage is being more reasonable than her!
No. But there needs to be recognition that the support for Leave was only very slightly more than that for Remain, and that on the Leave side there were very different views of what 'Leave' actually meant. The attitudes displayed and comments made by some people make it appear that they believe there was overwhelming public support for the most extreme version of Brexit.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Kite159
Veteran Member
Or for the leave voters desperately looking at what they had been told to vote by that kind and caring Murdoch & whoever runs the Daily Mail
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Would you believe that both my good lady wife and I, both in our 70s, actually voted "Remain". The point being the matter you and I are diametrically opposed upon is in our political ideals, from how I saw how you ended your original posting to which I made response to.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Or for the leave voters desperately looking at what they had been told to vote by that kind and caring Murdoch & whoever runs the Daily Mail
Amazing how many people on this website quote The Daily Mail when they have a political axe to grind. Yet how many of these have ever read it for a period of time?
It sounds just like the old adage...."I don't like Guinness, but I've never tried it"..
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