IEP: Hitachi / Agility wins

[moonrakerz]

I just hope the diesel versions will have a proper "power car", not underslung bus engines like the truly awful Class 180s !

 

[route:oxford]

Looks good.

Can be sure that the numbers purchased will only ever be "just enough" though... Someone with sense should already be doing the phone calls and calculations to get a dozen sets in for spot hire.

26 Metres... Isn't that going to be quite tight at some curves? For some reason the image of the bridge at Newcastle keeps coming to mind.

 

[Techniquest]

Indeed, I wonder about that too. The curved platforms at Bristol Temple Meads will cause problems and to a much lesser extend the curved platforms at Swansea. If they were to run through Birmingham New Street that would require full platforms allocated to a set too, which you avoid with Voyagers currently. Still, maybe New Street will be rebuilt with such things in mind by then.

43016 on the WNXX forums mentioned the issue of the platforms at London Paddington being too short for the sets as it stands, so what will happen there is anyone's guess.

Hopefully the Reading re-build will also allow for this too!

 

[Chafford1]

I just hope the diesel versions will have a proper "power car", not underslung bus engines like the truly awful Class 180s !

Diesel power houses at each end (or at one end on the 'bi-mode') using hybrid technology and feeding their power through motored axles on some of the other carriages.

 

[A0]

Interesting that they're quoting a top speed of 125mph - that's a step down against the 91s on the ECML as they're good for 140.

Not convinced about the electric / diesel hybrid and it's efficiency - adds to the weight, particularly the diesel element. Has anywhere else in the world had a fleet of diesel / electric hybrids in daily use in the way suggested ? And before any joker suggests it a Class 73 doesn't come close.

 

[Daimler]

This decision actually makes me quite angry - when you consider that we do have a factory in this country making perfectly good trains, and yet the government decides to buy a train manufactured (and, so far as I can tell, designed) in Japan, with bolting together being all that will end up taking place over here - does the government not trust UK industry to build anything these days? I'm sure that Hitachi are capable of making an excellent train - but is it the right decision in these times? I feel fairly confident that we won't see SNCF or DB ordering trains from the other side of the world at the moment!

Sure, the government appears to be courting foreign direct investment, as usual, but only 500 jobs will be created by this decision, which is a small amount, all things considered. I wonder how this would have panned out if Derby had won the contract...

So much for Brown's pledge of 'British jobs for British workers' (see the front cover of the current issue of Private Eye for a more accurate claim - http://www.private-eye.co.uk/covers.php?showme=1229& ).

EDIT: Furthermore, the interior of these things looks absolutely ghastly. The seats look so uncomfortable, and it just looks incredibly spartan. Having said that, it looks quite neat outside.

 

[Metroland]

Interesting that they're quoting a top speed of 125mph - that's a step down against the 91s on the ECML as they're good for 140.

What's the point? They never ran at 140 in passenger service, nor probably will ever, much like the pendolinos.

 

[Darandio]

I'd say they'll be MUs, much like the Voyager and Meridian family are.

I am sure the argument will ensue once they have arrived!!

 

[djw1981]

Assembled in britain, not designed or engineered here. At a factory cunningly aimed at 3 Labour's marginal seat areas - North East, South Yorks and East Mids.

Yes there will be new depot jobs, but the ICEC/GW/? franchise holder will have to lay off their own staff when they stop using the current depots so the overall gain is negligable.

The whole thing is heavy on spin and low on fact/specifics, as Nigel Harris and Roger ford have been pointing out for months. The thing is almost un-engineerable - faster, and lighter, yet more comfort, and carrying a power generator.

 

[asylumxl]

Since when does this government ever try and do anything other than fleece the public?

They must have a really high opinion of the tax payer, they seem to think they are very ignorant and incapable of independent thought.

 

[D841]

This decision actually makes me quite angry - when you consider that we do have a factory in this country making perfectly good trains, and yet the government decides to buy a train manufactured (and, so far as I can tell, designed) in Japan, with bolting together being all that will end up taking place over here - does the government not trust UK industry to build anything these days? I'm sure that Hitachi are capable of making an excellent train - but is it the right decision in these times? I feel fairly confident that we won't see SNCF or DB ordering trains from the other side of the world at the moment!
.

With the rolling stock construction industry globalised, there's no guarantee that any of these trains would have been built in Britain, regardless of who won the contract.

SNCF and DB have protectionist policies which have known to have beeen manipulated to get round EU competition regulations. In Britain, we tend to play by the rules.

 

[Metroland]

Since when does this government ever try and do anything other than fleece the public?

They must have a really high opinion of the tax payer, they seem to think they are very ignorant and incapable of independent thought.

Yep, the truth is, the media have been given the wrong mock up designs, only the railway centre got the correct ones. Bi-mode being sherbet or brown sauce powered. Notice the high capacity design? But at least its green.

http://www.therailwaycentre.com/NewSite POD 2009/POD12-02-09.jpg

 

[Royston Vasey]

If the quality and reliability of these trains is anywhere near that of Hitachi's Shinkansens, then this is a good decision. Compare with Alstom's Adelantes...

I have no problem with the design and engineering being in Japan and assembly here... Jobs are jobs, I think the issue is one of pride only. Is anything known about where the Siemens/Bombardier versions would have been built? Siemens built the Desiro family in Austria and Germany. Bombardier, a Canadian/German company may have assembly lines in Derby but operations all over the world. Would they have been any more likely to go out of their way to build from scratch in Britain? I suspect not.

And please stop going on about the seats looking awful, it's a pre-production animation, the thing isn't even designed let alone seats specified yet!!

 

[djw1981]

But then also look at Alstom's Pendelino's...which are fairly reliable., As people keep pointing out the Shinnkansens - they run about 600 miels per day in a return journey, on a dedicated track with very few points etc and no slow traffic. This helps teh reliability

 

[whoshotjimmi]

This decision actually makes me quite angry - when you consider that we do have a factory in this country making perfectly good trains, and yet the government decides to buy a train manufactured (and, so far as I can tell, designed) in Japan, with bolting together being all that will end up taking place over here - does the government not trust UK industry to build anything these days? I'm sure that Hitachi are capable of making an excellent train - but is it the right decision in these times? I feel fairly confident that we won't see SNCF or DB ordering trains from the other side of the world at the moment!

EDIT: Furthermore, the interior of these things looks absolutely ghastly. The seats look so uncomfortable, and it just looks incredibly spartan. Having said that, it looks quite neat outside.

So, it would appear David Cameron has joined the forum! Seriously though, before getting angry, we should remember that the Bombardier bid was joint with Siemens, who are a German company who manufacture trains themselves in Germany. The Desiro family, all built in Germany, number over 350 units with another 30+ being built currently. Let's also remember that Bombardier have many Turbostars and Electrostars currently on order, look like they will be awarded the Stansted contract and have to be front runners for the next lot of DMU's up for bidding. Plenty then for Bombardier to get their hands on.

I would even go as far to say that the number of jobs created by a Siemens Bombardier consortium would be fewer than that of Agilty. I am no fan of the Government. However, whatever the outcome of this, they would have found someone who argued. They have picked the bid that best represents Britains railways going forward whilst ensuring jobs remain in the UK. If Hitatchi are having some parts made abroad, so be it. But Siemens would do exactly the same.

Having sat on the Bullet at NRM, Japanese interior comfort is a pleasure to behold. I'm sure that the computer animation doesn't accurately portray the final product. Remember, it won't be here for another 4 years! Plenty of time to make the odd adjustment.

 

[djw1981]

Ah but you forget that this one is being specified down to what DfT are willing to pay per year.....Thus in order for a faster lighter train with less track damage when you have a diesel generator on board, the weight must be cut somewhere. You cannot cut aircon, toilets or 'impact resistant seats' these days, so the cuts will come in less insulation, plastic instead of soft furnishings etc.

 

[jopsuk]

Ah but you forget that this one is being specified down to what DfT are willing to pay per year.....Thus in order for a faster lighter train with less track damage when you have a diesel generator on board, the weight must be cut somewhere. You cannot cut aircon, toilets or 'impact resistant seats' these days, so the cuts will come in less insulation, plastic instead of soft furnishings etc.

Lighter weight alumnium body shells? Increased use of composites for structural and non-structural components?

 

[whoshotjimmi]

Massive improvements in construction technique ought to shave a few kilos from the overall weight as jopsuk quite rightly states. I would have though that the interior would not be too dissimilar to the class 395. Have a look at the Wikipedia page for a picture of the furnishings. Looks comfortable enough to me. Maybe with a bit of carpet though. Before anyone says anything (!) I realise that the 395 is just for short hops and not long distance travel, but surely a few modifications here and there will be implemented. Like I say, there is a lot of time before they are due to be put into service.

 

[Daimler]

So, it would appear David Cameron has joined the forum! Seriously though, before getting angry, we should remember that the Bombardier bid was joint with Siemens, who are a German company who manufacture trains themselves in Germany. The Desiro family, all built in Germany, number over 350 units with another 30+ being built currently. Let's also remember that Bombardier have many Turbostars and Electrostars currently on order, look like they will be awarded the Stansted contract and have to be front runners for the next lot of DMU's up for bidding. Plenty then for Bombardier to get their hands on.

I would even go as far to say that the number of jobs created by a Siemens Bombardier consortium would be fewer than that of Agilty. I am no fan of the Government. However, whatever the outcome of this, they would have found someone who argued. They have picked the bid that best represents Britains railways going forward whilst ensuring jobs remain in the UK. If Hitatchi are having some parts made abroad, so be it. But Siemens would do exactly the same.

Having sat on the Bullet at NRM, Japanese interior comfort is a pleasure to behold. I'm sure that the computer animation doesn't accurately portray the final product. Remember, it won't be here for another 4 years! Plenty of time to make the odd adjustment.

Ouch! I beg you not to tar me with his brush!

I do agree with you - the other contract was not a guarantee of the trains being built in the UK - more's the pity!

It's just depressing to see how little choice there is - indeed, none, in this case - if you want a 'British' train these days, considering what facilities we once had.

And I suspect you're right about the interior of the trains - it is only a simple computer model (but I do have an aversion to those awful oval white antimacassars, no matter how comfortable!)

 

[djw1981]

Lighter weight alumnium body shells? Increased use of composites for structural and non-structural components?

Yes but the aluminium pendelinos for 9 coaches saves only approx 25 tonnes on a 2+9 cl 91/mkIV due to all the addons.

 

[Phoenix]

The HSTs will be scrapped, they are 30 plus years old as it is, 35 the time the first of these new trains come in. The design goes back to the late 60s, they are well past their sell by date. There is spec in the IEP programme for XC routes as well as commuter trains to places like Oxford, Northampton and Cambridge.

They won't scrap them straight away as various open access companys would love them due to their capacity and the amount of drivers who sign them and the various routes their cleared for.
Also my predicition is some may be converted for further use as pullmans such as for the VSOE etc.

 

[Techniquest]

Well it depends on when Hitachi's SE gets here really. Maybe they would be sent for scrap if it doesn't reach us until 2016, when they turn 40. Like you say though Phoenix, other operators may wish to snap them up. AXC (or whatever it is by then) may wish to have more HSTs to compliment what they've got with extra capacity, more routes or whatever. Grand Central may wish to have them to be rid of the 180s or for a daily Carlisle to London Paddington via the S+C (or something!). Of course, I suspect the 125 Group will be interested to some extent.

In any case, I have only one question for now:

When, if Hitachi get 100% go-ahead to build their SE, would we see it on these shores?

 

[schmoo_smith]

If they are built in Britain then I hope the Japanese will have a good amount of quality control built into it so we don't end up churning out the usual rubbish built in Britain.

of course they will look at Nissan...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Assembled in britain, not designed or engineered here. At a factory cunningly aimed at 3 Labour's marginal seat areas - North East, South Yorks and East Mids.

an excellent point there, totally with you on that one
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes but the aluminium pendelinos for 9 coaches saves only approx 25 tonnes on a 2+9 cl 91/mkIV due to all the addons.

only 25ton, thats 25 renault clios, every little helps

 

[90019]

only 25ton, thats 25 renault clios, every little helps

Just under 20 Clios if you mean the most recent one


But, on the Pendos there's also the added weight of the tilting equipment to be taken into account.

 

[jopsuk]

Yes but the aluminium pendelinos for 9 coaches saves only approx 25 tonnes on a 2+9 cl 91/mkIV due to all the addons.

As said, they have a lot of weight that won't be on the new trains due to the tilting gear- look at the difference between 220s and 221s: the latter, with tilting gear, weight about ten tonnes per car more than their non-tilting siblings.

 

[daccer]

Is it me or does this whole thing seem a little bit mad! Surely the whole point of a rail policy is to have a joined up plan. How can you announce the procurement of the new IEP when the electrification review hasnt been announced. And to be honest surely the whole thing should be linked to HS2,3 etc. A rail policy should be all inclusive and include a long term plan (these trains will be expected to last 30-40 years after all). if HS2 and 3 are built you could find the need for the IEP diminishing - would you rather go from Leeds to London at 125mph or 186 mph - both alternatives could be available in the next 10-15 years. isnt it time that someone took this thing by the collar and shook it. Announcing these trains is pointless until the other studies have been done and a structure has been agreed on for the next 30 years. This smacks of political shenanigans aimed at deflecting us from the avalanche of bad news we are experiencing ref the economy etc.

As the govt continues to throw money at the banks and in bailingout foreign owned companies the neglect of the railways becomes more and more amazing. How can there not be a rash of re-openings taking place as we speak. The railways are a major driver for investment and you dont have to be an Einstein to see the days of the motor car and HGV are numbered with green concerns coming to the fore more and more. This IEP is a a smoke screen to hide the fact that the govt has done nothing to expand the railways in England and a golden opportunity is being missed to leave a legacy for future generations borne out of our current angst and problems.
[

 

[Metroland]

In all fairness they have recently announced a special package to look at a line re-openings. As have the Tory party and Lib-dems. I agree though, some of the announcement could have been put back to the electrification review, which is due in May I believe, that is likely to recommend wiring of the Midland and Great Western main lines and well as parts of the cross country network. The two things are very much tied together. Having said that, the announcement for the IEP only concerned the East Coast and GW main lines, so I'm not entirely sure what that have planned for other routes, including cascading IC225s to the Norwich and newly electrified MML. £7 billlion is enough money for at least 5,000 vehicles, which is a huge order, so I assume other lines are covered in the future. So there may well be more orders for the MML etc around 2020 and so on.

As for HS 2, that won't be open for 15-20 years, nor will it serve everywhere, so you will need new trains anyway.

Lastly, I did however note the IEP announcement came through at 8am, on BBC R4 Today programme. There must have been some special priority for max impact because the news didn't appear anywhere else, including the rest of the internet for at least 1 hour afterwards.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Is it me or does this whole thing seem a little bit mad! Surely the whole point of a rail policy is to have a joined up plan. How can you announce the procurement of the new IEP when the electrification review hasnt been announced. And to be honest surely the whole thing should be linked to HS2,3 etc. A rail policy should be all inclusive and include a long term plan (these trains will be expected to last 30-40 years after all). if HS2 and 3 are built you could find the need for the IEP diminishing - would you rather go from Leeds to London at 125mph or 186 mph - both alternatives could be available in the next 10-15 years. isnt it time that someone took this thing by the collar and shook it. Announcing these trains is pointless until the other studies have been done and a structure has been agreed on for the next 30 years. This smacks of political shenanigans aimed at deflecting us from the avalanche of bad news we are experiencing ref the economy etc.

As the govt continues to throw money at the banks and in bailingout foreign owned companies the neglect of the railways becomes more and more amazing. How can there not be a rash of re-openings taking place as we speak. The railways are a major driver for investment and you dont have to be an Einstein to see the days of the motor car and HGV are numbered with green concerns coming to the fore more and more. This IEP is a a smoke screen to hide the fact that the govt has done nothing to expand the railways in England and a golden opportunity is being missed to leave a legacy for future generations borne out of our current angst and problems.
[

Lots of fair points there. One thing I'd say though is that new rolling stock is needed soon, whereas the capital projects will be much longer in coming to fruition. Furthermore this plan seems to allow for some flexibility between electric or diesel power. If decisions are made to fully electrify further lines, then easy, add more electric power cars to the order. Haven't the GWML and MML electrification projects been provisionally approved in the last few weeks? Or hints been made at least.

High speed lines will need further, dedicated rolling stock but not for many years longer. I think 10-15 years is wildly optimistic. These trains will be used on slower routes than that. 125mph is pretty much fit for purpose because it is backwardly compatible with our current infrastructure, so this is sensible (though the coach length worries me!!).

I'd say it's not a case of one solution fits all, IEP and High Speed 2 (and beyond) don't need to be integrated. Making all IEP trains capable of 186mph or whatever would be a tremendous waste of money because they will be hopelessly over-engineered for what the majority will ever be asked to do. I find it unlikely that demand will diminish for them in the way you suggest, because high speed lines will only ever cover small but lucrative niche markets, e.g. London-Leeds/London-Birmingham/Heathrow-Wherever. The rest of the network can't live on Voyagers for the next 30 years!!

 

[jav]

It's an interesting decision to award it to Hitachi for sure. I have to say its one I support.

We can hardly have a procurement process that guarantees the job goes to Derby. All that would happen is the prices would go through the ceiling as Bombardier took advantage of their monopoly.

Let's remember Bombardier is a Canadian led global corporation with a train assembly plant in the UK. Hitachi is a Japanese led global corporation having just won an order planning to build a train factory in the UK.

Actually how much manufacturing is really done at Derby? A lot of it is just assembly same as Hitachi are saying they will do. True I'm sure Hitachi will use some different sub suppliers but if the 395 is an example then key UK specific equipment like shoe gear pans etc was procured from if not the UK then europe.

The Japanese are not daft, theres no way they are going to incur long term costs shipping stuff around the world if they don't need to. I think if they can get established and get a factory successfully churning out decent finished trains they will gradually move more and more over here.

Another interesting point is what Hitachi's long term objectives are? I know they have previously been invited to tender for european contracts. Bombardier is never going to build trains for Europe in Derby because they already have plants on the continent. Hitachi just might and is probably the UK's best chance of seeing British built trains carving out a peice of the European market.

Would anyone say we should have refused Honda, Nissan and Toyota access to manufacturing in the UK 15 years ago?

 

[222001]

If the MML was electrified I think it would get new IEP trains rather than cascaded 225s. I say this as the 225s would need replaceing a few years down the line anyway.