ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[43096]

It seems the people responsible for Voyagers are still at work, then!



I must admit, I'm baffled as to why Scotrail have felt it necessary to design their own interior spec from scratch. The fleet currently includes well designed coaches with mini buffet facilities and a healthy standard class seating capacity, a 'composite' design with half First and half standard, a wheelchair accessible toilet vehicle, and the TGS Guards' van with cycle space. The above would have made a perfectly adequate four coach set, with just some tweaks for the toilet mods, sliding doors and an internal refurb into Saltire. The proposed plans seem needlessly expensive.

You must have been on different GWR HSTs to me then! The standard class layout is horrific with a woeful lack of bays of 4 - ScotRail (sensibly) are addressing that.

 

[Clansman]

Given that most of the services between Aberdeen and Glasgow aren't bursting, 4 Mk3s is still a big improvement compared to a single 170. Although we'd all prefer a fleet of 5 (and 6) + 2 HSTs, most services will cope fine with 4 + 2, with peak time services alternations to 5 + 2s where necessary to prevent normal timetabled services becoming full and standing as we're currently seeing on all Intercity routes. The increased frequency of services from Dundee and Perth to Glasgow to run during the entire day will alleviate this also as Intercity services at certain times, Friday especially, fill up to standing room only after Perth.

It's not like the 500 odd surplus Mk3s are in hot demand, so I'm sure if Scotrail need the additional capacity then they'll seek it without too much issues.

 

[BRX]

I hope they sort out the horrendous abattoir-style cold white lighting that was put into the FGW Mk3s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I hope they sort out the horrendous abattoir-style cold white lighting that was put into the FGW Mk3s.

I think they are going to fit LEDs. But before they do so they should ride a Chiltern Mk3 (cheap rubbish with a horrible light quality) and a new Lothian bus (excellent quality with a nice warm white feel) and choose carefully.

Cheap LEDs are garbage.

 

[43096]

It's not like the 500 odd surplus Mk3s are in hot demand, so I'm sure if Scotrail need the additional capacity then they'll seek it without too much issues.

The question then is how long will the ROSCOs keep surplus vehicles in store for?

 

[BRX]

I think they are going to fit LEDs. But before they do so they should ride a Chiltern Mk3 (cheap rubbish with a horrible light quality) and a new Lothian bus (excellent quality with a nice warm white feel) and choose carefully.

Cheap LEDs are garbage.

Yes, nothing wrong with LEDs, just need to choose the colour temperature carefully.

See also the new routemasters in London - nicer colour temperature than many other new buses.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, nothing wrong with LEDs, just need to choose the colour temperature carefully.

And the quality of the driving circuits - cheap circuitry brings visible flicker which gives me a headache. It's usual to pulse LEDs to increase longevity and control brightness, but this needs to be at least 100-120Hz to be invisible, cheap ones tend to use mains 50Hz which is awful.

 

[47271]

You must have been on different GWR HSTs to me then! The standard class layout is horrific with a woeful lack of bays of 4 - ScotRail (sensibly) are addressing that.

Funnily enough I'm on a GWR HST now, and Standard, whilst clean and modern and in a smooth running mk3, is woefully cramped. I may have reported to the contrary a few weeks ago and made a favourable comparison with Scotrail 158s, but I've changed my mind. Only two table bays per coach, airline seats with pitiful legroom such that I'm sat sideways with my back to the window and the freezing cold wipe down melamine wall panel. Oh, and the hideous harsh lighting mentioned recently upthread. They're basically high density commuter trains and need gutting before they go anywhere near Scotrail I'm afraid.

Off topic, but if anyone from GWR is reading I'd also like to feed back that you've lost revenue from me. I'm only squashed into Standard in a virtually empty late evening train because you see fit to try to charge well over £100 for a Bristol to Paddington First Class advance, a £75 or so premium on Standard. If you got real you could've made another £30 or £40 off me and a few others on board. Let's hope the uncommercial GWR pricing doesn't transfer to Scotrail with the trains. [emoji38]

 

[380101]

And are the 156 refurbs actually going anywhere progress wise? Im aware theres a lot of them but Iv yet to get one with the new cumfy seats/usb sockets. That, plus the 2020 mods will most likely make them acceptable but something better must come longterm!

I know it's off topic, but they should be fitting the new seats with USB sockets to the class 156 units from April. Manufacturer delays have held things up.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Thanks, and sorry mods, particularly Ainsworth for further off topicness.

 

[Highland37]

Is there any information available on the timetable for the HSTs on the Highland Line? I know an hourly service is planned each hour, one to Glasgow the other to Edinburgh, but beyond that I have no information.

 

[superalbs]

This image of a toxic new livery just aired on Rail Engineer.
http://www.railengineer.uk/2017/03/23/scotrails-new-hsts/

 

[Bletchleyite]

Toxic? I like that.

 

[GusB]

Thanks for the link. They referred to this article in another yesterday, but I couldn't find it anywhere - obviously it hadn't yet been published!

I actually quite like that livery. Maybe because I'm getting to be an old fogey and appreciate the blue/grey combination...

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's another white livery, but it's got the dark window band that is needed to make a white livery look less cheap.

Looks quite European.

 

[sprinterguy]

Oh good grief, another white based livery. I'm sure that will look particularly well across the radiator grilles of the power cars, which BR knew, except for a short lived dalliance at the launch of the Intercity Executive scheme, to always paint a dark colour on all major livery permutations that they wore due to the dirt that inevitably accumulates on them.

And Scotrail already has such a strong brand in the form of the Saltire scheme.

 

[BestWestern]

You must have been on different GWR HSTs to me then! The standard class layout is horrific with a woeful lack of bays of 4 - ScotRail (sensibly) are addressing that.

Better a woeful lack of bays than a woeful lack of seats. The current intetior was developed to maximise capacity, something FGW worked hard to achieve. Additional coaches were sourced and converted, and significant investment was made in reducing First Class capacity. I can only suggest that you make a journey out of Paddington on an evening peak service, if the interior spec doesn't make sense to you. With such short sets, I'd have thought SR might be keen to retain the capacity.

 

[ash39]

What a shame, I thought they'd look great in current ScotRail livery. That looks awful.

 

[Clansman]

Thanks for sharing.

I thought they were going to have the Saltire livery, but a livery dedicated to Intercity trains seems appropriate.

Looking at the livery, it looks decent however it does look a bit plain. I love the idea of showcasing silhouettes of Scottish landmarks though - a nice touch.
My only major critique would be that the blue should be darker to match the current shade they use on, as well as removing the landmarks on the bottom right of each carriage as it looks too "TPE" in my opinion, and doesn't bare any connotations to Intercity travel - although having the landmarks on the power cars look smart. Other than that, I've no complaints

They should name each HST power car after a Scottish aspect - landmarks again or historical figures perhaps?

 

[GusB]

It's another white livery, but it's got the dark window band that is needed to make a white livery look less cheap.

Looks quite European.

Looks grey-ish to me, although there appear to be white bits on the carriage ends in the "artists impression", so presumably it'll be a white base with vinyl wraps (does nobody use a paintbrush these days?)

Thanks for sharing.

I thought they were going to have the Saltire livery, but a livery dedicated to Intercity trains seems appropriate.

Looking at the livery, it looks decent however it does look a bit plain. I love the idea of showcasing silhouettes of Scottish landmarks though - a nice touch.
My only major critique would be that the blue should be darker to match the current shade they use on, as well as removing the landmarks on the bottom right of each carriage as it looks too "TPE" in my opinion, and doesn't bare any connotations to Intercity travel - although having the landmarks on the power cars look smart. Other than that, I've no complaints

They should name each HST power car after a Scottish aspect - landmarks again or historical figures perhaps?

I think you're right about the landmarks on the carriages, but they look quite good on the power cars. Perhaps a slightly larger saltire logo and fleetname on the power car could be used too.

As far as naming goes, I'm going to light the touchpaper, put on my winter coat and head for the Cairngorms - "Alex Salmond"? :P

 

[Bletchleyite]

As far as naming goes, I'm going to light the touchpaper, put on my winter coat and head for the Cairngorms - "Alex Salmond"? :P

Wasn't he this?

(Yes, I know it's fake, though the unfortunate lettering itself wasn't)

 

[43096]

Better a woeful lack of bays than a woeful lack of seats. The current intetior was developed to maximise capacity, something FGW worked hard to achieve. Additional coaches were sourced and converted, and significant investment was made in reducing First Class capacity. I can only suggest that you make a journey out of Paddington on an evening peak service, if the interior spec doesn't make sense to you. With such short sets, I'd have thought SR might be keen to retain the capacity.

There is a world beyond Paddington-Reading-Didcot-Swindon, even on the western. That market is dictating the setup of the entire fleet, to the exclusion of everything else - to my mind that is not acceptable.

Try the Mark 3s out of Liverpool Street to see how you can get 80 seats into a standard class vehicle whilst also keeping a sensible interior layout.

 

[Clansman]

After reading about the window alignment vs structural integrity in the article, I looked at the seating plans in standard class again. Pretty annoyed that they can't even align them with windows, judging by the plans, a good few of the tables sit between windows and don't align properly - as per the 385s also.

 

[Bletchleyite]

After reading about the window alignment vs structural integrity in the article, I looked at the seating plans in standard class again. Pretty annoyed that they can't even align them with windows, judging by the plans, a good few of the tables sit between windows and don't align properly - as per the 385s also.

Unless you go for a very low density layout (i.e. First Class spacing at 2+2 as per the Chiltern Mk3s, so a total of 64 seats) it isn't possible to fully align the seats with the windows in a Mk3, they are too large.

 

[Clansman]

Unless you go for a very low density layout (i.e. First Class spacing at 2+2 as per the Chiltern Mk3s, so a total of 64 seats) it isn't possible to fully align the seats with the windows in a Mk3, they are too large.

I understand this is practically impossible with some seats, however I'd of thought Scotrail would've gone the extra mile and tried to ensure tables were aligned. Part of doing so means using a centre carriage divider, which GWR HSTs were ridden of and the seating plans show no signs of returning. So by having a divider, that's already 4 aligned tables with windows, plus a row of airline seats in behind still aligning. So in theory, Scotrail could've easily laid the interior out with most seats aligning with windows nae bother.

 

[route:oxford]

I understand this is practically impossible with some seats, however I'd of thought Scotrail would've gone the extra mile and tried to ensure tables were aligned.

Surely that's utterly hopeless for the key commuter section between Perth & Glasgow?

Services are rammed to standing every working day throughout the peak, post-peak peak and pre-peak peak.

Unless you hadn't noticed, commuters spend their journeys frobbing their phones rather than looking out the window - and for half the year the commuter is in darkness anyway.

 

[BestWestern]

There is a world beyond Paddington-Reading-Didcot-Swindon, even on the western. That market is dictating the setup of the entire fleet, to the exclusion of everything else - to my mind that is not acceptable.

Rightly or wrongly, capacity is king these days.

 

[Clansman]

Surely that's utterly hopeless for the key commuter section between Perth & Glasgow?

Services are rammed to standing every working day throughout the peak, post-peak peak and pre-peak peak.

Unless you hadn't noticed, commuters spend their journeys frobbing their phones rather than looking out the window - and for half the year the commuter is in darkness anyway.

As a regular commuter between Perth and Glasgow I understand fully. Not anticipating my journey tomorrow at 1pm very much.

It's only hopeless if I was suggesting there should be far fewer seats than the original plans - which I'm not.

The seating layout for standard class includes 10 tables for every coach - which is a lot to say the least - and already drains capacity. What I was implying was that to ensure all bays align with the windows, all you'd have to do is a minor bit of chopping and changing with the existing seating layout in terms of where abouts the bays sit as opposed to the airline. By looking at the seating plan, 2/5 of bays don't align with the windows (better than I first assumed before second looking), so all I'd suggest was simply having a consistent layout of [x Bays : x Airline] so that the bays align with the windows, whilst keeping a spacious ambience (which we all know Grammar seats create the opposite when in commuter layout) and not draining capacity.

Given Transport Scotland has window alignment as a priority written up in the franchise conditions (hence why I'm bringing it up), you'd expect Scotrail to fulfil that to the utmost that they can - Intercity routes up here don't have a demand that is scalable to of the likes of Bristol/Reading/London where the HSTs are coming from, so by purely leaving the commuter layout as they currently are would just defeat the purpose of the HSTs coming up here in the first place.

The HSTs and the additional DMU services will ease the surge of commuters between Perth/Dundee to Glasgow/Edinburgh anyway, regardless of the seating layout.

 

[scotraildriver]

Watching people board trains all day I have noticed a few things which makes me wonder about the whole scenic train idea. On a 170,without fail, the first seats to be occupied are always the single, inward facing seats behind the cab and at the body ends. No view whatsoever except the toilet door. Next the airline seats tend to fill with people sitting on the aisle seat to try to prevent a neighbour. Not interested in the view. I suspect the only ones really bothered are families with kids and tourist routes such as the WHL. Doesn't appear from people's behaviour that commuters care about a window seat much at all.

 

[Marklund]

It is hardly Inter City though, despite what they call it.
Yes, they may be travelling between cities of Scotland, but in reality, it's a commuter and inter-urban operation.