Car Ownership -Good Or Bad?

[RichmondCommu]

Assuming you ever want to sell it.

That's true, the decision being largely dependent on the state of your personal finances and your propensity to spend money.

 

[miami]

I note vehicle emissions are often cited but surely in the 21st century, is not human knowledge there to research and develop vehicles which will greatly reduce such levels. I am old enough to remember the smogs that affected cities in the 1950s and of the subsequent gradual move away from coal as a fuel in both home and industry.

Interesting how you mention smog, while holding China up as a beacon of freedom.

Are you wedded to the idea of owning a car, or would you be happy with the idea of having an appropriate car of your choice at your disposal at 5 minutes notice (effectively a private branch of avis open on your doorstep with home delivery)

 

[RichmondCommu]

Interesting how you mention smog, while holding China up as a beacon of freedom.

Are you wedded to the idea of owning a car, or would you be happy with the idea of having an appropriate car of your choice at your disposal at 5 minutes notice (effectively a private branch of avis open on your doorstep with home delivery)

And then another 20 minutes (probably more) whilst all the paper work is filled in, the vehicle is checked for marks / scrapes and they try and sell you insurance.

 

[me123]

Are you wedded to the idea of owning a car, or would you be happy with the idea of having an appropriate car of your choice at your disposal at 5 minutes notice (effectively a private branch of avis open on your doorstep with home delivery)

The thing with car clubs is that they'll never be able to guarantee me a car 100% of the time. It wouldn't be practical for them to do so - they'll buy enough cars to meet the demand most of the time, but at times of peak demand I may have to wait or go without. The same could be true of types of car as well - someone may need a big car for their family, but end up with nothing available other than a SmartCar.

Now, that's fine if I'm just using it for a weekly shop. But what if I get called to work at short notice? What if I have to go somewhere urgently? What if I have a family emergency and need to be somewhere now? No car club/instantaneous care hire can ever guarantee to be available with the same reliability as my own personal car.

 

[tony_mac]

And then another 20 minutes (probably more) whilst all the paper work is filled in, the vehicle is checked for marks / scrapes and they try and sell you insurance.

It probably wouldn't work like that.

When I rent a car, I'm usually in and out within a minute!

 

[Starmill]

James, did you have the same beliefs before you were diagnosed with your condition or were you quite happy to drive everywhere?

I could drive. I could ask for driving lessons as a birthday present I'm sure. I could probably get some insurance eventually - or could I drive my one of my parents cars. I could sort it out with some money and some effort - I'm choosing not to. I explained the costs of that (and they are huge) in my previous post in this thread. There are lots of people to whom this kind of decision applies!

 

[D365]

Pretty much all of my placement applications have asked me whether I hold a full UK drivers licence. So although I haven't needed to drive until now, it was definitely beneficial to have passed before starting uni. Plus I'm beginning to rack up several years in no-claims.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Interesting how you mention smog, while holding China up as a beacon of freedom.

Are you wedded to the idea of owning a car, or would you be happy with the idea of having an appropriate car of your choice at your disposal at 5 minutes notice (effectively a private branch of avis open on your doorstep with home delivery)

Perhaps you misread what I said about China, which incidentally I NEVER held up as a beacon of freedom. What I actually said was that the bicycle was the normal mode of transport in China until the Government decided it was in order for car use to be used. It was that change of direction in a Communist state that I was comparing to the aspirational gradual reduction in car use in Britain that a number of posters on this thread are discussing.

We no longer have the two Range Rovers, as since I no longer drive since my stroke in July 2012 at the age of 67, my Range Rover is now owned by my son in the Poynton area who has two children under the age of six. Patricia still has her Range Rover but at the age of 75, with her hip replacement operation due to take place on Thursday, 30th March, it will be between six to nine weeks before her consultant advises her to drive once again. Patricia has been a member of the Advanced Drivers Association and her reflexes are still excellent.

Should we ever need a car and driver, there are a number of executive car companies which were used by the consultancy prior to my retirement in 2010 when we had clients flying into Manchester Airport, which we could still avail ourselves of, should family assistance not be available.

 

[miami]

I must admit I am surprised you don't retain the services of a full time Chauffer (for when the helicopter can't fly due to weather)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I must admit I am surprised you don't retain the services of a full time Chauffer (for when the helicopter can't fly due to weather)

I do. Her name is Patricia...

 

[muz379]

When you own a car, you have to make a decision on the type of car based on all your travel needs - both popping to the local haberdashery, and driving 4 hours to visit friends for a weekend. You have a sunk cost of £x per year, which you have to pay regardless of how much you use it, this makes the marginal cost cheaper, but the overall cost higher than it needs to be.

Just because you own one car there is nothing stopping you hiring one more appropriate for other Journey types .

Point in case I used to own a small cheap city car that was 10 year old . I bought it for a little over a grand and used to use it mainly to commute to work 5 miles away . Used to get 45/50 mpg ,cheap to tax , group one insurance and cheap to repair .

However twice a year I used to make the 250 mile Journey to visit family in another part of the country . For this I used to hire a big estate car for comfort and to be able to carry the luggage .

This still worked out cheaper than me buying a big estate car to drive all year round .

If you buy a new car then quite frankly you are crackers. Every car I've bought in the last 20 years has been a year old. You save a lot of money and the car is still under warranty. I've never understood why people lease cars either; you're just throwing money away with no possible resale.

I would never buy a brand new car either myself , I always buy cars at 1-2 years old and keep them until they are no longer economically viable to keep running . But for some people they do to be fair just want one simple monthly payment with no other considerations which is what leasing offers .

Leasing is just paying the depreciation on the car . I suspect many people who leased VAG disels just before the emissions scandal would have been happy to be handing the cars back having paid what they agreed at the start and having lost no money of their own as a result of the scandal .

Is there nowhere in the application process where one has to agree to follow the rules/law?

Regardless even if it did the current rules/law say that things like minor speeding offences are treated with a fine or attendance at a speed awareness course .

Are you arguing for changes in the law which would make minor speeding offences carry a ban as their punishment ?

If so good luck with that campaign .

One thing I would like to see is a sustained Government publicity campaign to change people's attitudes to driving, and to make people more aware of the harm they do to other people as soon as that ignition key is turned, so that people become more ready to think, 'Do I really need the car for this particular journey?' I'd say on railforums, many people do have that awareness, but many of the wider public don't.

I would argue though that in some instances public transport would do even more damage to the environment . A bus taking me to work on an early shift at 2:30 am is not going to have many other passengers on it . I suspect the bus is pumping out far more pollution than my small economical car . On my way to work on a 10 mile commute at that time I see very few other vehicles , the majority of vehicles I do see are HGV's .

We hear all about this public transport utopia and how it is the way forward for the environment . But only if there is sufficient demand . When there is not sufficient demand a car or some other form of personal transport is better for the environment .

 

[Starmill]

To be fair there is remarkable demand in urban areas for journeys to and from city centres overnight. Certainly enough to fill a bus, and not just Friday and Saturday nights, although clearly that's when they will be most full. I wish every city in the UK had an overnight bus service, around 2bph and people will actually use it. It need only be a few core routes. The problem is anti-social behavior (which will be there whether the bus service runs or not - it's not a transport related problem). It probably wouldn't serve your shift needs if you don't live in a suburban area and have your workplace in a city centre (or an Airport).

 

[yorksrob]

To be fair there is remarkable demand in urban areas for journeys to and from city centres overnight. Certainly enough to fill a bus, and not just Friday and Saturday nights, although clearly that's when they will be most full. I wish every city in the UK had an overnight bus service, around 2bph and people will actually use it. It need only be a few core routes. The problem is anti-social behavior (which will be there whether the bus service runs or not - it's not a transport related problem). It probably wouldn't serve your shift needs if you don't live in a suburban area and have your workplace in a city centre (or an Airport).

Indeed. Enough to keep the trains busy into the early hours at least as well (although naturally they stop at 22:30/23:00.

 

[edwin_m]

The thing with car clubs is that they'll never be able to guarantee me a car 100% of the time. It wouldn't be practical for them to do so - they'll buy enough cars to meet the demand most of the time, but at times of peak demand I may have to wait or go without. The same could be true of types of car as well - someone may need a big car for their family, but end up with nothing available other than a SmartCar.

Now, that's fine if I'm just using it for a weekly shop. But what if I get called to work at short notice? What if I have to go somewhere urgently? What if I have a family emergency and need to be somewhere now? No car club/instantaneous care hire can ever guarantee to be available with the same reliability as my own personal car.

There's always the option of a taxi if the club car isn't available at short notice. More expensive but pretty much guaranteed to be available, except perhaps on Friday/Saturday nights.

 

[meridian2]

There's always the option of a taxi if the club car isn't available at short notice. More expensive but pretty much guaranteed to be available, except perhaps on Friday/Saturday nights.

Group travel by taxi is fairly economical compared to the alternatives, for short and medium distances. When my son goes out with his friends a taxi is their normal means of transport because it's cheaper than the total bus fair by some way.

 

[miami]

There's always the option of a taxi if the club car isn't available at short notice. More expensive but pretty much guaranteed to be available, except perhaps on Friday/Saturday nights.

Not guarenteed at all, taxis in my town rarely do pickups from local villages -- I've tried to send my motherinlaw home in the evening, a mere 2 miles, but fail to get a taxi.

 

[edwin_m]

Not guarenteed at all, taxis in my town rarely do pickups from local villages -- I've tried to send my motherinlaw home in the evening, a mere 2 miles, but fail to get a taxi.

But probably more guaranteed in urban areas. My suggestion was in response to concern about car clubs not being able to supply a vehicle, and they would only operate in urban areas anyway.

 

[miami]

But probably more guaranteed in urban areas. My suggestion was in response to concern about car clubs not being able to supply a vehicle, and they would only operate in urban areas anyway.

Depends on your definition of Urban, I live a mile from nantwich town centre (population 17,400) and ordering a taxi

However once driverless cars become common I expect that. If demand is excessive in nantwich (say the circus is in town), then some will move from Crewe or Whitchurch, with backfilling from Stoke, or Sandbach. There may be half a dozen cars parked up in the Acton parish car park for example.

You might find that as people start buying automatic cars, they can rent them out in an air-bnb style way when they don't need them. Perhaps there will be surge pricing, cheaper to hire a car at 2AM or 2PM than at 8AM for example, which will encourage more cars into the available pool. Eventually this means a critical mass is reached, and people stop bothering to buy cars (especially 2nd or 3rd ones) because there's enough cars available for hire, and centralised companies see the profit and start providing the cars.

 

[me123]

It all sounds very "Tomorrow's World". I think it's theoretically possible to have truly automated cars which would lead to the scenario you envisage, but I would imagine that cars would require a trained driver (at least in the first instance) to take over in the event of failure. If that does happen, lots of these benefits are lost.

 

[miami]

It all sounds very "Tomorrow's World". I think it's theoretically possible to have truly automated cars which would lead to the scenario you envisage, but I would imagine that cars would require a trained driver (at least in the first instance) to take over in the event of failure. If that does happen, lots of these benefits are lost.

That's true, and I'm not envisaging something that will happen this year. The question is will it be 2030, or 2050, or 2070.

Closer to now, I'm surprised that nobody has come up with an AirB&B for cars that's taken off yet. Mercedes are giving it a go

http://www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/motors/car-airbnb-coming-from-mercedesbenz-a3362106.html

Familiar with the Airbnb concept? The online accommodation sharing & letting scheme where subscribers rent your home, or part of it, while you’re away maybe renting someone else's?

If this appeals, and to many it does, you may be interested to hear that Mercedes and Smart owners will soon be able to benefit from the peer-to-peer vehicle sharing version of Airbnb. All you do is enter dates when your car isn’t needed, perhaps while you’re on holiday, allowing fellow scheme users to book time to use your car.

At the Paris motor show, the head of Mercedes-Benz Cars Dr. Dieter Zetsche explained that the cars in the scheme “will be equipped with a box that connects it to an online platform”. By creating a car’s online platform, including spec and dates of availability, owners “…give thousands of members the ability to rent, unlock and drive your car, all with their smartphone”.

.....

Mercedes reckons it’s ahead of the game, with more expertise in this area than any other manufacturer. Peer to peer car sharing is seen as the next big step, one with “huge potential”.

I work from home a lot, and looking out of the window at the momemnt I can see several cars in driveways, including my neighbours merc that hasn't moved in 3 weeks (he has a broken arm). I guess insurance is a problem, but if you could hire a car for an hour for upto 20 miles for say £10, picking up with a few minutes walk, that may well reduce car ownership, reduce motoring costs for the average person, but paradoxly increase miles driven.

 

[tony_mac]

You might find that as people start buying automatic cars, they can rent them out in an air-bnb style way when they don't need them.

You can already do this (Easy car club), but I think people are mostly being optimistic over the pricing, compared to regular car hire companies.

 

[miami]

Car hire is a very cheap way to travel, if you live next door to a car hire place. Say my wife and I want to go from Plymouth to Dorchester this evening for dinner, leaving at 3PM today, and returning later tonight, and I live next door to avis in plymouth. I could hire a Fiesta on 15 minutes notice for £20 or astra for £25, and pay under £20 in petrol for the 200 mile round trip, total cost about £40, or 20p/mile. Leaving at 3pm means I'll be there well before 6pm.

The train would cost £106, or £70 with a 2-together railcard. We wouldn't be there until 8PM (the 7PM arrival has been cancelled), last train back is 8.30 (although it's cancelled).

The hassle of car hire comes in the first and last mile (which is just like the hassle of a train)

 

[krus_aragon]

I've not posted in this tread before now for a very good reason: I've been doing a head gasket replacement (for the first time) on my car. I now write with the elation of having completed it successfully!

My car history is one of:

• inheriting a car at 18 (and for a few months was the only one in the household that could drive it)
• owning it through my university years
• seeing it written off by someone driving into it
• relocating to Cardiff for four years, and doing without a car
• moving back to north Wales, continuing to rely on public transport until
• buying a car again a year ago

Deciding to give up having a car was great for me, as it got me back into cycling as an adult, and having passed my test I got in the saddle with a proper respect for the highway code. Working in retail, I was ableto go to other branches as required by my area manager, as long as I could get there by bus, train, and bike. And starting from the inner suburbs of Cardiff, I worked in all but one of the branches of South Wales. No car: no real problem.

Coming back up north, and we managed fine for over two years, including the birth of our first child. We're lucky enough to be on a major bus route (up to 8 buses per hour, a 10 min walk from the house) but fares are very steep for short journeys. (Off into town, 4 mile round trip? £5.50 day ticket. Feeling mad enough to go from Bangor to Chester and back by bus? £5.50 day ticket.)

My current job has me commuting 15 miles each way. It takes roughly 25 minutes by car. The same journey by bus takes 90 minutes. Cheap, for the distance, but very time-consuming. The railway doesn't help me greatly, as I'd need to travel 3 miles to the local station, and then 6 miles by bus or bike at the far end (and would almost triple the price).

My parents-in-law got rid of their last car over two years ago. They're now both into bus-pass age, and pay for a taxi to bring them home with their weekly shopping. I (or other relatives) give them a lift to an outing on occasion, but that is far less than once a month.

My wife does not hold a full driving license. She's had a few lessons, which were put on hold while we didn't own a car, and does intend to follow through and get a full license at some point. She has no desire to acquire her own car, however: she mainly wants to be able to share the "work" of driving long distances with me.

 

[455driver]

The train would cost £106, or £70 with a 2-together railcard. We wouldn't be there until 8PM (the 7PM arrival has been cancelled), last train back is 8.30 (although it's cancelled).

The hassle of car hire comes in the first and last mile (which is just like the hassle of a train)

Cant find any cancellations for Dorchester tonight except for a duplicate schedule, what trains were cancelled?

Oh and well done for picking a route which is a bit difficult to do by rail at the best of time.

 

[Lankyline]

Ah the utopian ideal of a society that has perfect transport links to get anywhere you want (and back) so the "nasty car" can be condemned to the occasional trip to the seaside.

Oh please lets get real about this, I have owned and run cars since I was 17, had countless company cars in my various sales roles and racked up huge amounts of mileage travelling around the country on business, which I may add is 90% impossible to do by public transport. The only exceptions I made were to use trains to London for business, as driving there and back in a day from Lancashire was pushing it a bit.

We need cars and the reasons why have been given by others on this thread, namely shift work, unsocial hours, rural locations, leisure trips to places Beeching and the rest managed to eradicate from the transport network, or what about medical treatment / visits / emergency (not 999 one) for those not near a bus route etc ? Rural and non main road bus route services are a joke, without council subsidies there would be even more cuts to these type of routes.

I have just bought my first car in nearly 20 years, a 1 year old Audi A5 sportback Quattro with 230bhp under my right foot and I love it !! it gives me the freedom to go where I want, when I want and having recently come back from a 4 day trip to Cornwall I now know just how good the handling is ! I did the trip in 5hr 40min, try doing that by train from Lancashire. So if this offends anyone's sensibilities or thinks it is an affront to the environment, sorry but I don't care !!

The car is an everday essential to most peoples lives and in some cases a lifeline, most have a choice whether to own a car or not, that's fine, but for me, I love driving and having experienced being without one I can honestly say I hated it.

 

[miami]

Lucky you, last time I went to Cornwall it took the best part of 9 hours each way, from Manchester. A long time since Christmas 2001 when I did st Ives to Warrington in under 4 hours.

 

[Lankyline]

Lucky you, last time I went to Cornwall it took the best part of 9 hours each way, from Manchester. A long time since Christmas 2001 when I did st Ives to Warrington in under 4 hours.

That's not bad, must have been no r/works or coppers but so called "Smart" motorways are going to put paid to quick trips down there:roll:

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Ah the utopian ideal of a society that has perfect transport links to get anywhere you want (and back) so the "nasty car" can be condemned to the occasional trip to the seaside.

*sigh* Another pro-car person using straw-man arguments eh?

Would you like to identify a post in this thread in which someone has suggested that we can have perfect transport links to get you anywhere you want (implied: without a car)? I'm certainly not arguing that. Perhaps I've missed something, but I haven't seen anyone else here arguing that either.

We need cars and the reasons why have been given by others on this thread, namely shift work, unsocial hours, rural locations, leisure trips to places Beeching and the rest managed to eradicate from the transport network, or what about medical treatment / visits / emergency (not 999 one) for those not near a bus route etc ? Rural and non main road bus route services are a joke, without council subsidies there would be even more cuts to these type of routes.

You won't get any disagreement on that from me. There are of course, many, many journeys for which a car is the only reasonable mode. This applies especially to journeys in rural areas, or, as you say, at unsocial hours, where there simply wouldn't be the numbers of people needing to travel along the corridor to make public transport workable.

However, that's not to deny that it's both possible, and desirable, with appropriate planning and transport policies, to increase the number of journeys that can very feasibly be made by public transport, and to reduce the proportion of people who need to own/drive a car.

I have just bought my first car in nearly 20 years, a 1 year old Audi A5 sportback Quattro with 230bhp under my right foot and I love it !! it gives me the freedom to go where I want, when I want and having recently come back from a 4 day trip to Cornwall I now know just how good the handling is ! I did the trip in 5hr 40min, try doing that by train from Lancashire. So if this offends anyone's sensibilities or thinks it is an affront to the environment, sorry but I don't care !!

Really? Do you understand the misery that over-use of cars causes to other people (Including, ironically, to other drivers who end up caught in congestion)? Do you care about the fact that pollution from cars (and other road vehicles) actually kills people? (In London for example, an estimated nearly 10 000 premature deaths a year are due to pollution. Obviously not all of that is caused by road transport, but much is. Fewer car-miles travelled would reduce that number, both directly, and indirectly by reducing congestion, allowing other vehicles that remain on the roads to move more freely).

I offer no opinions on the journey you've just described. For all I know, it's quite possible that it was one for which the car was the only sensible option, and if that's the case, then it's quite sensible for you that you'd use it. If you happen to enjoy driving - fine. For what it's worth, I quite enjoy driving too, although that enjoyment is tempered by regret at the impact of driving on other people, and these days I wouldn't on the whole choose to drive unless it was the only reasonable option.

But if you're saying that you actually don't care about the harm your use of the car causes to other people, then I suggest you sit down and have a serious think about your attitude towards your fellow human beings.

 

[muz379]

I offer no opinions on the journey you've just described. For all I know, it's quite possible that it was one for which the car was the only sensible option, and if that's the case, then it's quite sensible for you that you'd use it. If you happen to enjoy driving - fine. For what it's worth, I quite enjoy driving too, although that enjoyment is tempered by regret at the impact of driving on other people, and these days I wouldn't on the whole choose to drive unless it was the only reasonable option.

But if you're saying that you actually don't care about the harm your use of the car causes to other people, then I suggest you sit down and have a serious think about your attitude towards your fellow human beings.

What about people who enjoy driving who go out and drive just purely for enjoyment , people who go to track days for example . I must admit from time to time I have done the same , took the car out to the peaks which I live on the edge of for a quick blast late at night or something like that just purely for the enjoyment of driving and nothing else .

I personally am aware of the damage that unnecessary driving like this does to the environment . But I am of the school of thought that most hobbies people engage in cause some environmental damage anyway . I mean instead of taking the car out for a blast I could play tennis for an hour or two . But what damage is done to the environment by the tennis rackets , balls and tennis shoes flown or shipped half way around the world . I think some people like to act Holier than thou . It is kind of like vegetarians who always make me laugh trying to pretend that their tofu and other soy products are the holy grail because they do not contain bits of dead animal . They might not contain animal but mass production of soy causes untold misery for plenty of humans , and mass produced food of any kind still causes environmental damage .

 

[DynamicSpirit]

What about people who enjoy driving who go out and drive just purely for enjoyment , people who go to track days for example . I must admit from time to time I have done the same , took the car out to the peaks which I live on the edge of for a quick blast late at night or something like that just purely for the enjoyment of driving and nothing else .

I personally am aware of the damage that unnecessary driving like this does to the environment . But I am of the school of thought that most hobbies people engage in cause some environmental damage anyway . I mean instead of taking the car out for a blast I could play tennis for an hour or two . But what damage is done to the environment by the tennis rackets , balls and tennis shoes flown or shipped half way around the world . I think some people like to act Holier than thou . It is kind of like vegetarians who always make me laugh trying to pretend that their tofu and other soy products are the holy grail because they do not contain bits of dead animal . They might not contain animal but mass production of soy causes untold misery for plenty of humans , and mass produced food of any kind still causes environmental damage .

An interesting point. Of course, the reality is that, the World is so interconnected that almost nothing we do is without consequence for other other people, or for the environment, and it simply wouldn't be possible to function in modern society in any meaningful way if you refused to buy or do anything that had any adverse effects. Even trying to understand what the impact is of the things we buy is in most cases going to be too complex and time-consuming to realistically do. Basic living in today's World necessarily involves an acceptance that you're going to inadvertently do many things that have unfortunate indirect effects.

For me, I'd say the key is to try to be aware of the things that are most damaging, and to avoid those, so far as can be reasonably done consistent with the need to actually get on with life. Obviously, everyone's mileage in that regard is going to be different. Everyone's situation is different, and everyone is going to have different ideas about what is reasonable to do in the context of their own lives. I think though that it's reasonable to expect everyone to at least think a little and to care a little about how their actions impact both other people and the environment, and to think whether they can sensibly do anything to moderate their own impact, which is why I responded to Lankyline's post as I did.

Regarding your specific example of going out for a drive for pure enjoyment: I guess, that's a perfect example of the problem of striking a balance between concern about the environment vs actually getting on with life, including doing the things you enjoy. To be honest, I've done similar things far in the past - and probably with more abandon than I would today. I do now look on the attitude I had towards the environment say 10-20 years ago with some regret.

These days... I don't think I'd ever go out purely to drive. I could though see myself occasionally going out purely to visit some piece of countryside in the car, which is arguably not that different (But the fact that I live in London and would have to drive for at least 20-30 minutes to even get to any remotely half-decent countryside kinda kills that ). Like I say, it's a balance, and that balance is going to be different for different people.