Scarborough TPE services from December 2017 Timetable change

[Bantamzen]

This change is one of the few I'm really not looking forward to, if only for personal reasons. As a regular Leeds (starting from Baildon) to Warrington user, the loss of the TPE service means that I will probably have to choose from the Northern Connect service via Bradford & the Calder Valley for Warrington BQ, or look to change at either Piccadilly or Oxford Road to get to Warrington Central.

The former will doubtless mean at least 20-30 mins longer travel time allowing for the journey to Bradford & the reversal out & not having 1st class (which is nicer when we have luggage, plus with a Two Together card only costs about the same as a Standard without). The latter will mean facing the regular ruck on P13/14 to make the changes, or an almost equally big ruck at Oxford Road. We could travel to Newton LW, but usually relying either on a pick up or using a taxi at the Warrington end means it's going to be a bit more difficult / expensive to do, with our final destination being 10+ miles to the south of Warrington. Going to Northwich is another option, but let's not go there.....

One thing does occur to me, even with the delay of the move until May 18 there is likely to be a gap in Leeds-Warrington services until the new 195s land and get into traffic. Not a massive market I'll admit, but with such major changes taking place around Manchester with Ordsall Chord opening and TPEs being re-routed, it is going to cause some extra congestion and confusion.

Anyway, that’s my grumble over with, well until May next year….

 

[Senex]

No i think the final plan is.

Liverpool - Edinburgh via Victoria and Newcastle.
Liverpool - Scarborough via Victoria.
Airport - Middlesbrough via Chord.
Airport - Newcastle via Chord.
Piccadilly - Hull semi fast picking up some local stops.
Piccadilly - Selby semi fast picking up the rest of the local stops.

So does this mean that there will be no non-stop running between Liverpool and Manchester if the Newcastle (-Edinburgh) is to start making an intermediate call? I thought the idea was that this was to be a genuine inter-city-type service (and hoped that from the 2018 timetable those 5 to 6 minutes in Victoria would have been cut down to a more sensible 3 minutes in an attempt to get the best possible Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds- Newcastle timings for the years (aeons?) before HS3 comes on the scene).

 

[northwichcat]

So does this mean that there will be no non-stop running between Liverpool and Manchester if the Newcastle (-Edinburgh) is to start making an intermediate call? I thought the idea was that this was to be a genuine inter-city-type service (and hoped that from the 2018 timetable those 5 to 6 minutes in Victoria would have been cut down to a more sensible 3 minutes in an attempt to get the best possible Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds- Newcastle timings for the years (aeons?) before HS3 comes on the scene).

Indeed. I thought the idea was the Edinburgh North TPE service would only call at Victoria, Huddersfield and Leeds between Liverpool and York. I wonder if Northern wanting to run an additional Chat Moss service over the minimum service level has affected TPE's plans?

 

[northwichcat]

One thing does occur to me, even with the delay of the move until May 18 there is likely to be a gap in Leeds-Warrington services until the new 195s land and get into traffic. Not a massive market I'll admit, but with such major changes taking place around Manchester with Ordsall Chord opening and TPEs being re-routed, it is going to cause some extra congestion and confusion.

From my experience such markets on North TPE are mainly students going home for the weekend or end of term. I wonder if they'll be winner and loser university as a result of the recasts. When I looked at university options my shortlist was all places which could be reached with 1 change of train and I know a lot of others considered doable in 1 change to be more important than the length of the journey. If a lot of current prospective students think similarly then Bradford University could see benefits from all the train enhancements planned for Bradford.

 

[Philip]

Indeed. I thought the idea was the Edinburgh North TPE service would only call at Victoria, Huddersfield and Leeds between Liverpool and York. I wonder if Northern wanting to run an additional Chat Moss service over the minimum service level has affected TPE's plans?

Where's the additional Chat Moss service supposed to be originating from?

There won't be enough 185s to run all Cleethorpes, Hull and Leeds services doubled up, in fact I doubt there'll be enough even if they only double up on the Manchester-Sheffield section. Unless more stock is ordered then some diagrams will have to run as single 185s.

 

[northwichcat]

Where's the additional Chat Moss service supposed to be originating from?

That's the extension of a Calder Valley service to Liverpool via Chat Moss.

There won't be enough 185s to run all Cleethorpes, Hull and Leeds services doubled up, in fact I doubt there'll be enough even if they only double up on the Manchester-Sheffield section. Unless more stock is ordered then some diagrams will have to run as single 185s.

TPE have South TPE strengthening will only be the Sheffield to Manchester section.

 

[BMIFlyer]

Where's the additional Chat Moss service supposed to be originating from?

There won't be enough 185s to run all Cleethorpes, Hull and Leeds services doubled up, in fact I doubt there'll be enough even if they only double up on the Manchester-Sheffield section. Unless more stock is ordered then some diagrams will have to run as single 185s.

Keeping the way things are at the moment where most diagrams have units stabled at Hull for one hour between arriving and departing then you would need 10 of the 185's for an hourly 4 car Man Picc to Hull service.

Let's assume the stopper from Man Picc terminates at Leeds and returns straight away = you'd need 4 units for that, giving us 14 so far.

If it extends to Selby then you'd need 6 units for the stopper in total so giving us 16 used.

That leaves what 10 remaining for the South route depending on how many TPE will eventually keep. Is it 26 units?

A round trip Man Air to Cleethorpes with a period of stabling at each end takes 7 hours, requiring 7 units. You would then have 2 units running Man Picc to Sheffield all day as part of a doubled up train (attach at MAN and detach at SHF) which leaves you with 1 unit spare out of 26.

It's possible, yes. You would be left with 1-3 spares depending on diagramming of units. But as diagrams will all change in 2018 then we shall see what occurs.

 

[TC60054]

Keeping the way things are at the moment where most diagrams have units stabled at Hull for one hour between arriving and departing then you would need 10 of the 185's for an hourly 4 car Man Picc to Hull service.

Let's assume the stopper from Man Picc terminates at Leeds and returns straight away = you'd need 4 units for that, giving us 14 so far.

If it extends to Selby then you'd need 6 units for the stopper in total so giving us 16 used.

That leaves what 10 remaining for the South route depending on how many TPE will eventually keep. Is it 26 units?

A round trip Man Air to Cleethorpes with a period of stabling at each end takes 7 hours, requiring 7 units. You would then have 2 units running Man Picc to Sheffield all day as part of a doubled up train (attach at MAN and detach at SHF) which leaves you with 1 unit spare out of 26.

It's possible, yes. You would be left with 1-3 spares depending on diagramming of units. But as diagrams will all change in 2018 then we shall see what occurs.

TPE are keeping 22 units.

Doubling Sheffield to Manchester Piccadilly cannot be done with two units, unless you plan on moving one unit across Sheffield station within the space of three minutes including the detachment and attachment. Personally I'd say it makes more sense operationally to send it through to the airport as a double, and have four units shuttling - in an idea world, you'd have six carriages through to Cleethorpes, at least in summer.

If you have very minimal turnarounds, Piccadilly to Leeds can be done, doubled as 4, singles as 2.
Piccadilly to Hull, as present (as there's no real way to chop the turnaround times without impacting on reliability), would be five singles, ten doubles, as you mentioned.

Personally, I can see these interworking with each other at the Manchester end.

This is purely theoretical, however this is 17/18 units (depending on whether the extra unit on TP South detaches at MAN or not, eating further into the path and probably then also missing the ex-Airport train at Piccadilly in the process) assuming both the Hull and Leeds services will be single 185s - I don't recall seeing anything to say that this isn't the case - there's no room for strengthening the remaining TPE North 185 diagrams.

Personally, I'd say keep the majority of the fleet - an extra 13 units or so would keep some operational spares and allow all 185 booked services to run as six cars - whether this is viable or not, I don't know.
Part of me is saying keep the whole fleet, although that would make no sense unless there was going to be further expansion of the service offered by TPE beyond what has already been catered for.

 

[BMIFlyer]

TPE are keeping 22 units.

Doubling Sheffield to Manchester Piccadilly cannot be done with two units, unless you plan on moving one unit across Sheffield station within the space of three minutes including the detachment and attachment. Personally I'd say it makes more sense operationally to send it through to the airport as a double, and have four units shuttling - in an idea world, you'd have six carriages through to Cleethorpes, at least in summer.

If you have very minimal turnarounds, Piccadilly to Leeds can be done, doubled as 4, singles as 2.
Piccadilly to Hull, as present (as there's no real way to chop the turnaround times without impacting on reliability), would be five singles, ten doubles, as you mentioned.

Personally, I can see these interworking with each other at the Manchester end.

This is purely theoretical, however this is 17/18 units (depending on whether the extra unit on TP South detaches at MAN or not, eating further into the path and probably then also missing the ex-Airport train at Piccadilly in the process) assuming both the Hull and Leeds services will be single 185s - I don't recall seeing anything to say that this isn't the case - there's no room for strengthening the remaining TPE North 185 diagrams.

Personally, I'd say keep the majority of the fleet - an extra 13 units or so would keep some operational spares and allow all 185 booked services to run as six cars - whether this is viable or not, I don't know.
Part of me is saying keep the whole fleet, although that would make no sense unless there was going to be further expansion of the service offered by TPE beyond what has already been catered for.

Ah yes, 3 units for Sheffield, my mistake!

As far as I'm aware, Hull becomes 6 cars, as South Milford station is earmarked for a platform extension in the medium term. TPE plans to run the Hulls as 6 car trains in the long term and this has been mentioned to the public.

South route certainly runs as 6 to Sheffield from MAN.

You could possibly use single 185 units on Leeds stopping trains, but I believe all will be double sets, as the supposed 2019 plan is 4x 5 car and 2x 6 car trains Leeds to MAN per hour.

So let's see,

10 units for MAN - Hull, or 8 units if you did 10 min turns at both ends, which can be done with travelling cleaners.

4 units for MAN - Leeds / 6 for MAN - Selby stopper (depending on turnarounds)

That leaves 8 or 10 units for the south route depending on the options above.

You can gain 1 spare unit if you run the south route service from Man Picc only and 3 spare units if the Leeds stoppers are single 185 units.

Very tight whatever way it is put into action.

There's obviously a possibility that one of the Leeds stoppers could be diagrammed for a Hitachi unit as well.

 

[Philip]

TPE are keeping 29 185s as far as we know. I really can't see two units being enough to cover the Manchester to Leeds shuttle. With the extra stops it'd be incredibly tight doing the journey in under an hour, especially when you consider the likelihood of minor delays here and there on that line. That's without mentioning the turnaround time at Leeds.

I would think running as singles you'd need a total of 8 diagrams for the TPE North ones. Cleethorpes as we know is 7 diagrams and with 29 units you'd probably need to have 4 booked in for maintenance each day, for good reliability.

That's 19 185s taken, leaving 10 for strengthening. I think the Sheffield doubles will run through to the Airport, because if you leave a unit in Piccadilly ready to be picked up then it'll mean somewhere along the line the train would have to cross most of the Piccadilly throat, which no one wants. So that's 4 for strengthening South TPE. The other 6 would be left to strengthen most, but not all, of the North TPE semi-stoppers.

 

[BMIFlyer]

TPE are keeping 29 185s as far as we know. I really can't see two units being enough to cover the Manchester to Leeds shuttle. With the extra stops it'd be incredibly tight doing the journey in under an hour, especially when you consider the likelihood of minor delays here and there on that line. That's without mentioning the turnaround time at Leeds.

I would think running as singles you'd need a total of 8 diagrams for the TPE North ones. Cleethorpes as we know is 7 diagrams and with 29 units you'd probably need to have 4 booked in for maintenance each day, for good reliability.

That's 19 185s taken, leaving 10 for strengthening. I think the Sheffield doubles will run through to the Airport, because if you leave a unit in Piccadilly ready to be picked up then it'll mean somewhere along the line the train would have to cross most of the Piccadilly throat, which no one wants. So that's 4 for strengthening South TPE. The other 6 would be left to strengthen most, but not all, of the North TPE semi-stoppers.

Ah, 29 sounds much more realistic then!

In that case, 10 for Hull, 6 for Leeds (Selby), 10 for the South route.

3 spare units for maintenance.

Cheers for that

 

[Philip]

Ah, 29 sounds much more realistic then!

In that case, 10 for Hull, 6 for Leeds (Selby), 10 for the South route.

3 spare units for maintenance.

Cheers for that

I still think they'll need an extra 4 for the South TPE doubles, I really think the 'dropping off/picking up' in Piccadilly idea is asking for pathing problems there, because of the criss-crossing it'll involve. Perhaps they'll only keep 3 in for maintenance and just have one Leeds shuttle diagram running as a single, unless they can find a feasible way to tighten up the journey and turnaround times.

 

[BMIFlyer]

I still think they'll need an extra 4 for the South TPE doubles, I really think the 'dropping off/picking up' in Piccadilly idea is asking for pathing problems there, because of the criss-crossing it'll involve. Perhaps they'll only keep 3 in for maintenance and just have one Leeds shuttle diagram running as a single, unless they can find a feasible way to tighten up the journey and turnaround times.

I agree somewhat.

There will be extra paths available at Man Picc however as the Lime Street TPE service is shunted via Man Vic instead, and the Man Air to Leeds / York, etc trains run via 13/14.

Should be feasible to have a unit drop off and wait until the other unit returns back from the airport.

Don't forget there will be more trains to the airport from 2018 courtesy of Northern so ideally having max 5 car length trains to and from MIA would help in a way.

The Airport platforms can fit an 8 car train. Using current workings you could have a 5 car TPE train terminate on the same platform as a 3 car Northern service, there are periods in the day when a 350 arrives followed by a 4 car 156 behind. Then the 156 departs followed by the 350.

 

[Greybeard33]

Indeed. I thought the idea was the Edinburgh North TPE service would only call at Victoria, Huddersfield and Leeds between Liverpool and York. I wonder if Northern wanting to run an additional Chat Moss service over the minimum service level has affected TPE's plans?

There must have been a late change of plan, because TPE's supplemental​ track access agreement said that the Scarborough service would call at both St Helens Jn and Newton-le-Willows, with the Newcastle service unchanged.

 

[TC60054]

TPE are keeping 29 185s as far as we know.

Doh, I knew I'd made a mess up somewhere!

With regards to the South TPE doubles, they will not be dropped off at Manchester Piccadilly. If you're adding in about five or six minutes at Sheffield to attach the units, and then doing the same at Piccadilly, you're then going to be pushing it very tight to be able then to get the Airport bound unit out and then the Cleethorpes bound unit in on top and attach, especially when you think you'd also have to do a sweep of the extra unit. At present, the ex-Cleethorpes arrives into Manchester at xx02, and the Cleethorpes unit from the Airport arrives at xx13.

I can't really see the benefit to having the short Leeds shuttle as running as a double 185, especially with another five trains an hour running alongside, whilst the other hourly TPE route is still singles - which could quite possibly pose a capacity problem, especially during summer as families head off to Cleethorpes for a weekend break, or a week long break.

The problem with having a ten minute turnaround on each end of the Hull sevices; currently you have a 12 minute turnaround at Manchester, and a 65 (so, for the purpose of this, 5) minute turnaround at Hull, on the current calling pattern. Extra stops are being added to this, which will increase the journey time, so a total of 17 minutes tunaround in total has been eroded to 10-12 minutes. If you can find a way of doing this without impacting on reliability, I'd like to know.

EDIT - just been pondering it before bedtime. Currently the semi fast journey time from Manchester to Leeds on the Hull is 53 minutes, so that's going to be nearer enough 60 when the additional calls are catered for. That makes 10 for Hull, 11 for South TPE sand 3 for Leeds. There simply would not be enough 185s to double up all remaining 185 diagrams without keeping more than 29 185s unless TPE are planning on overworking an already overworked fleet.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There must have been a late change of plan, because TPE's supplemental​ track access agreement said that the Scarborough service would call at both St Helens Jn and Newton-le-Willows, with the Newcastle service unchanged.

The franchise agreement required TPE to pick up the calls of the current Northern Liverpool-Manchester Airport semi-fast (not Wavertree for some reason).
However it left it to TPE to distribute these between the 2 Liverpool services.

 

[Philip]

When you think about it, do the off peak TPE semi-stoppers to Leeds and Hull really need two 185s per service? Most Leeds and Huddersfield passengers from Manchester will board one of the frequent fast services, likewise Huddersfield passengers heading into Leeds. I'm sure TPE could get away with leaving a couple of the semi-stopper diagrams running as single units, obviously if it's possible for a couple of diagrams to avoid the busy peak flows then they'd be the ones to run as singles all day.

The priority for double 185 services should be on the Manchester-Sheffield route first and foremost, then any remaining units can strengthen some of the Hull and Leeds services. I also think having any more than 25/29 in passenger service each day would stretch the fleet too much.

 

[BurtonM]

When you think about it, do the off peak TPE semi-stoppers to Leeds and Hull really need two 185s per service?

Whatever it is, they need more than 1x185.

 

[hibtastic]

The Hull and Leeds semi fasts will be the only Piccadilly to Stalybridge services therefore single 185s may need strengthened in the peaks.

One morning this week was absolutely horrendous with people heading into Manchester from Stalybridge left on the platform due to the single 185 being rammed. Even first class was full to bursting with standees. Several people arguing made it a fairly unpleasant journey! This happens fairly regularly when some services are delayed / cancelled.

 

[BurtonM]

My comment was based on experience as a Stalybridge commuter!

 

[TC60054]

Being no longer able to find the webpage that TPE had to do with improvements on their website, I'm wondering whether it would be reasonable to suggest that the Hull's could be 6 between Leeds and Manchester? That would free up an extra two units. The biggest problem with doubling up on the South route is that the services are still actually rather busy past Sheffield, especially at weekends and during late Spring / Summer.

 

[Greybeard33]

The Hull and Leeds semi fasts will be the only Piccadilly to Stalybridge services therefore single 185s may need strengthened in the peaks.

One morning this week was absolutely horrendous with people heading into Manchester from Stalybridge left on the platform due to the single 185 being rammed. Even first class was full to bursting with standees. Several people arguing made it a fairly unpleasant journey! This happens fairly regularly when some services are delayed / cancelled.

The Northern franchise agreement requires 3 extras from Huddersfield to Manchester in the morning peak, plus 2 in the evening peak, to supplement the TPE services. These must call at Stalybridge but not Ashton, so (although not specified) it seems likely that they will go to Piccadilly not Victoria.

Similarly in the easterly direction there will be 2 extras in the morning peak and 3 in the evening peak.

 

[BMIFlyer]

After a meeting this week I have an update regarding the class 185 usage in the long term when the new TPE fleets are in service...

29 units:

Manchester Airport to Cleethorpes route - 6 cars throughout
Manchester Picc to Hull via Leeds route - 6 cars throughout
Manchester Picc to Leeds skip stop - 3 cars on each service

Potential future plans based on keeping additional 185's with TPE are:

Hull - Manchester Airport via Doncaster / Sheffield - 6 cars throughout

More info to follow soon.

 

[lejog]

When you think about it, do the off peak TPE semi-stoppers to Leeds and Hull really need two 185s per service?

It depends what you mean by off-peak. I rarely use the Huddersfield to Leeds stoppers, but I often use the Brighouse to Leeds stopper on a late Saturday morning where a 158/153 combo can have standing passengers from Mirfield and be rammed full from Dewsbury.

 

[humbersidejim]

Potential future plans based on keeping additional 185's with TPE are:

Hull - Manchester Airport via Doncaster / Sheffield - 6 cars throughout .

...which would be excelllent news for Hull if it were to happen. That and the upgraded Northern Connect service would significantly improve the service to Sheffield.

 

[IanXC]

...which would be excelllent news for Hull if it were to happen. That and the upgraded Northern Connect service would significantly improve the service to Sheffield.

We might need to be prepared for the "and" to be "instead of"...

 

[nr758123]

After a meeting this week I have an update regarding the class 185 usage in the long term when the new TPE fleets are in service...


Manchester Picc to Leeds skip stop - 3 cars on each service

At peak times, that's not going to be anywhere near sufficient even for the current passenger numbers.

 

[humbersidejim]

We might need to be prepared for the "and" to be "instead of"...

Quite. Probably for the best - under present plans those 195s are spread VERY thinly

 

[TC60054]

After a meeting this week I have an update regarding the class 185 usage in the long term when the new TPE fleets are in service...

29 units:

Manchester Airport to Cleethorpes route - 6 cars throughout
Manchester Picc to Hull via Leeds route - 6 cars throughout
Manchester Picc to Leeds skip stop - 3 cars on each service

Potential future plans based on keeping additional 185's with TPE are:

Hull - Manchester Airport via Doncaster / Sheffield - 6 cars throughout

More info to follow soon.

I assume the breakdown on that is 14 units Manchester to Cleethorpes, 10 Manchester to Hull, 3 Manchester to Leeds plus two spares? Doesn't seem enough to me...

 

[lejog]

At peak times, that's not going to be anywhere near sufficient even for the current passenger numbers.

There will be 3tph skip stop services serving stations between Mirfield and Leeds, a 6 car 185 Manchester to Hull, 3 car 185 Manchester to Leeds and the Northern Brighouse service, possibly a 6 car 170 at least in the peaks. This appears to be around doubling the current capacity of 2tph 3 or 4 car Sprinter/Pacers.

East of Huddersfield there will be the above 2TPE services and in the rush hours the Northern services mentioned above to Piccadilly, along with 2tph Stalybridge to Victoria - again looking like a healthy increase.

Also, I assume the 3 car 185 service will serve the quieter stations, Ravensthorpe, Deighton, Marsden etc.