RMT dispute on Merseyrail

[northwichcat]

The nature of the IT industry is not such that it will have caused problems, anyway. Rapid and frequent reskilling is the norm - it just moves too fast to have a job role unchanged for 5 years, let along for life.

It doesn't normally have a sudden abrupt end like Flash did. For example, software to produce CD ROMs and DVDs got used less and less as faster Internet connections allowed more types of content to be viewed online.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Flash didn't have an "abrupt end". It's still used, albeit on a much narrower basis than it was.

 

[455driver]

1. There are at least two reasons for embarking on a programme to eliminate the driver. One is that for good historical reasons dating back to the age of steam, they ​are highly paid for a job which has been deskilled by technology. The other is that, sadly, suicide by train has become all too common. Nobody should be put in the position where they are in charge of a lethal object and quite unable to prevent it killing someone.

In that case we had better ban all cars, lorries, motorbikes etc!
How many death a year are there on the roads?
I have never thought a 143 could be classed as a lethal weapon!

2. I not only believe that on-train and platform staff are desirable, they should be mandatory. The RMT also represent the crews on the ferries such as those out of Liverpool. These ships cannot sail unless they have the full complement required by their passenger certificate (not by the number of passengers actually aboard). Only last week in Scotland a CALMAC route had to be cancelled for the day after 5 crew failed a breathalyser and were summarily dismissed.

So you want to get rid of drivers but want more on train staff!

3. One of the reasons for the rise in train use is that it insurance for young people has become unaffordable. The tradition of sitting ones driving test 17 and getting some wheels ASAP has declined.

I dont really notice a lot more 20 somethings using the train to get to work!
What a lot of people do is pass their tests and then become a named driver on their Mums (or Dada) second car, you know the second car they bought after their child had passed their driving test. Then once the kids get a bit older they can then afford to insure the car themselves.

 

[kw12]

Trying to get this thread back on topic. Are more strikes scheduled?

Or any talks?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or any talks?

Didn't the RMT initially say there would be no talks?

(Of course there will at some point, but I imagine not very quickly)

 

[daikilo]

Didn't the RMT initially say there would be no talks?

(Of course there will at some point, but I imagine not very quickly)

I think RMT basically said no talks as long as the role of guards current safety duties will disappear. A bit late and difficult to defend given the current DCO/DOO operations.

 

[6Gman]

If that's true (that guards walk through more often than not) that's a big shift - on Merseyrail in my childhood the guard never left the rear cab other than to change ends.

FWIW, LM presently looks like that. Many people think it is already DOO as a result, and there's unlikely to be significant resistance from passengers to a change there (though one is not presently proposed, and the 350s are not set up for it so it would require significant financial investment so seems unlikely absent a complete rolling stock replacement programme which itself seems unlikely given the age and condition of the 350s).

In your experience perhaps.

My experience of LM is that it's very unusual for the Guard not to pass through the train. Perhaps that's the difference between the northern and southern parts of LM.

 

[InOban]

It seems that Rail is the only mode of public transport which does not have both mandated staffing and training in First aid and the like. Obviously the number of such staff will be lower, reflecting the inherent safety of the mode, but it could only be financed by eliminating staff whose contribution is less.
One of the major threats to the growth of the train network is the outrageous costs of any upgrades. I read somewhere that to erect a bus shelter on a busy street costs a few thousand. To erect the same shelter on a rural halt costs near ten times as much.

 

[HowardGWR]

deleted

 

[Clip]

In your experience perhaps.

My experience of LM is that it's very unusual for the Guard not to pass through the train. Perhaps that's the difference between the northern and southern parts of LM.

Quite - ive done a few journeys of late in the morning up to Rugby and a guard has come through on both legs checking tickets - I thought this was the norm!!

 

[danbarnstall]

I think RMT basically said no talks as long as the role of guards current safety duties will disappear. A bit late and difficult to defend given the current DCO/DOO operations.

A Guard on my commute home said talks had been agreed today, supposed to be taking place early next week.

 

[455driver]

It seems that Rail is the only mode of public transport which does not have both mandated staffing and training in First aid and the like. Obviously the number of such staff will be lower, reflecting the inherent safety of the mode, but it could only be financed by eliminating staff whose contribution is less.
One of the major threats to the growth of the train network is the outrageous costs of any upgrades. I read somewhere that to erect a bus shelter on a busy street costs a few thousand. To erect the same shelter on a rural halt costs near ten times as much.

What time of day will that bus shelter be erected on the street?
What time of day will that bus shelter be erected on the station, and why?

That is part of the reason its more expensive.

 

[Voglitz]

Guards Must Stay On Trains - They Saved My Son's Life
http://morningstaronline.co.uk/a-f774-Guards-must-stay-on-trains-they-saved-my-sons-life

A guard's job does not include that of a paramedic - but perhaps it should.

Also, what happens if a woman goes into labour on a DOO train? There could be consequences.

All the evidence might point towards keeping guards, and 'upskilling' them in diabetes treatment, defibrillation, midwifery, etc.

 

[6Gman]

Also, what happens if a woman goes into labour on a DOO train? There could be consequences.

All the evidence might point towards keeping guards, and 'upskilling' them in diabetes treatment, defibrillation, midwifery, etc.

I might have a brain haemorrhage. Perhaps they need training in brain surgery?

Seriously, I don't want a guard to be a paramedic; I don't want them as a job creation scheme; I don't want them as bouncers.

I do want someone safety-trained on each train so if something incapacitates the driver there's somebody to take control of the situation.

(I'm also persuaded that in most cases they're the best person to close doors, though I can see merit in drivers opening them.)

 

[InOban]

I think others are suggesting that they be trained as First Responders, not heart surgeons. And as for the very rare occasions when they are required to take control of the situation then untrained passengers have landed aeroplanes.....

 

[JamesTT]

Should guards be reintroduced to lines that are already DOO? How would it be funded? If renationalisation and by reinvesting profits, would it not be better to reinvest money into infrastructure and rolling stock?

 

[Voglitz]

I do want someone safety-trained on each train so if something incapacitates the driver there's somebody to take control of the situation.

Every day, far more people travel on buses than on trains, and these have been 99%+ OPO for years. So, if something incapacitates the bus driver, should there be a safety-trained conductor onboard each bus, to take control of the situation?

 

[JamesTT]

Every day, far more people travel on buses than on trains, and these have been 99%+ OPO for years. So, if something incapacitates the bus driver, should there be a safety-trained conductor onboard each bus, to take control of the situation?

Although one bus journey will have far fewer potential passengers than one rail journey.

 

[Robertj21a]

Although one bus journey will have far fewer potential passengers than one rail journey.

I would have thought 60+ passengers was enough to make it a consideration given that a bus driver is totally on his own. A train driver has rails (!) and a signalman - much less risky right from the outset.

 

[InOban]

As I have been implying already, the only way to fund the reinstatement of a passenger-facing member of staff (not a guard - they were there to guard the train, not the passengers) would be to eliminate the need for a driver.

 

[trainophile]

If someone is taken ill on a bus, or starts a fight for that matter, the bus can be stopped pretty much immediately. If the same thing occurred on a train, it could take a considerable amount of time to bring the train to a stop in a suitable place, i.e. where paramedics could access the sick or injured person safely.

Therefore it would make more sense for the second person, who is not responsible for concentrating on driving, to be able to coordinate whatever action is necessary, and have at least a basic knowledge to recognise stroke, heart attack etc., even if not to administer the appropriate first aid.

Whether this function comes under the term "guard" is a moot point, but I strongly feel that there is a need for a passenger facing official on board.

 

[d1672]

Hi,

May I ask a question please ?

Hands up, everyone who is in favour of removing cabin crew and co-pilot from a plane ???

Thomas

 

[Temple Meads]

I strongly feel that there is a need for a passenger facing official on board.

This! A short but perfect statement.

 

[muz379]

Every day, far more people travel on buses than on trains, and these have been 99%+ OPO for years. So, if something incapacitates the bus driver, should there be a safety-trained conductor onboard each bus, to take control of the situation?

On buses the drivers are visible to passengers and the vast majority of people are familiar with the road environment into which they will be stepping if there is a need to evacuate the bus in an emergency . The same cannot be said for the railway .

Summoning assistance to the driver of a bus would be much easier than the driver of a train stopped out of course , even if you are unsure of your geographical location a quick look at street signs should give you enough information to direct the ambulance service , and there is always a good chance someone on the bus will know where they are .

 

[JamesTT]

Hi,

May I ask a question please ?

Hands up, everyone who is in favour of removing cabin crew and co-pilot from a plane ???

Thomas

I understand some flights don't have co-pilots and cabin crew. Not sure you can really compare planes and trains though

 

[Voglitz]

If someone is taken ill on a bus, or starts a fight for that matter, the bus can be stopped pretty much immediately. If the same thing occurred on a train, it could take a considerable amount of time to bring the train to a stop in a suitable place, i.e. where paramedics could access the sick or injured person safely.

If the driver of a bus is incapacitated, the bus might "be stopped pretty much immediately" by crashing into a tree or a supermarket, or somesuch.

Should buses have a safety trained conductor onboard, to meet that eventuality?

 

[JamesTT]

If the driver of a bus is incapacitated, the bus might "be stopped pretty much immediately" by crashing into a tree or a supermarket, or somesuch.

Should buses have a safety trained conductor onboard, to meet that eventuality?

I suppose they could fit a dead mans handle to a bus to prevent this or to at least lessen the severity of any incident

 

[muz379]

I understand some flights don't have co-pilots and cabin crew.

But then that is going to be the equivalent of a class 153 with 1/3 of the seats filled

 

[AlterEgo]

Hi,

May I ask a question please ?

Hands up, everyone who is in favour of removing cabin crew and co-pilot from a plane ???

Thomas

Let's not go back here again. Was done to death months back on the Southern thread.

 

[Voglitz]

On buses the drivers are visible to passengers and the vast majority of people are familiar with the road environment into which they will be stepping if there is a need to evacuate the bus in an emergency . The same cannot be said for the railway .

National Express and Megabus etc are OPO as well. If the NX driver is incapacitated halfway down the M1, are the passengers familiar with the road environment into which they will be stepping if there is a need to evacuate in an emergency?