RMT dispute on Merseyrail

[Pyreneenguy]

There are a certain number of staff you need at minimum to run a railway, even a quiet one.

Indeed, even a ghost train needs a skeleton-staff !

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think a belief that the railway does not exist to create jobs, and should instead employ the number of people it decides it requires to operate the services that are its purpose, is right-wing, it's reasonably centrist.

If we do want job-creation schemes, there are things of more value to society than railway guards. With increasing automation, that is a question society will need to address, and there are solutions like universal basic income and subsidising of things like the arts. But a public transport system alone is not the place to address it.

 

[Moonshot]

Sorry, but the railways are a public service, they should never have been privatised in the pathetic manner that thdey were !

Had franchising never happened, what do you think passenger numbers would be like today ?

Also, would Open Access operators exist?

Is it also the case that the state funded by the taxpayer is actually making pretty much all the investment decisions and funding it? Is it also the case that the DFT are in fact specifying the T and Cs of franchises themselves? Can you tell me just how the railways are in fact privatised?

 

[northwichcat]

Being the utopian left-winger that I am, how about putting human-beings first and give job conservation priority. We could start by re-nationalising the network- for which there is a clear majority in the country.

Is there? Most people seem to want local or regional control of transport now, not some politicians in London having overall responsibility for transport in a part of the country they rarely, if ever, visit.

Would you also support the banning of Apple products? Apple deciding to not support Adobe Flash on their iPhone and iPads meant a lot of people no longer had work in the roles that they were specialists in or does your proposal only apply to the railways?

 

[AngelicUpstart]

They are a public service, but a public service is not a job-creation exercise, it's a provision of service to the public.

And indeed, if they are a public service, they should serve the public. For instance, a no-strike rule should apply to all rail workers.

 

[Pyreneenguy]

Had franchising never happened, what do you think passenger numbers would be like today ?

Also, would Open Access operators exist?

Is it also the case that the state funded by the taxpayer is actually making pretty much all the investment decisions and funding it? Is it also the case that the DFT are in fact specifying the T and Cs of franchises themselves? Can you tell me just how the railways are in fact privatised?

I would argue that increased passenger numbers are due to population increase and road-saturation.

I can't comment on Open Access. I know that S.N.C.F are preparing themselves for it's introduction in 2020. However if the UK leave the European Community will they still have to respect it ?

The railways are privatised as the day to day running of services is in the hands of private operators who, thanks to subsidies make a profit and pay dividends.

 

[Moonshot]

I would argue that increased passenger numbers are due to population increase and road-saturation.

I can't comment on Open Access. I know that S.N.C.F are preparing themselves for it's introduction in 2020. However if the UK leave the European Community will they still have to respect it ?

The railways are privatised as the day to day running of services is in the hands of private operators who, thanks to subsidies make a profit and pay dividends.

Are you saying its wrong to make a profit and pay dividends? I would argue that the Rail Pension Scheme relies quite heavily on dividends. Interstingly , the RMT themselves have investments which also pay dividends....which I think is pretty smart thinking by the RMT top brass as it does help to pay the costs of legal fees for members who find themselves in hot water.

 

[Pyreneenguy]

Is there? Most people seem to want local or regional control of transport now, not some politicians in London having overall responsibility for transport in a part of the country they rarely, if ever, visit.

Would you also support the banning of Apple products? Apple deciding to not support Adobe Flash on their iPhone and iPads meant a lot of people no longer had work in the roles that they were specialists in or does your proposal only apply to the railways?

What a terrible example- Apple ! A company that is sitting on a pile of cash bigger than the GDP of most developping nations !

I'd still argue that AS A SERVICE the human element working on our railways must be seen as a priority. The day that 10 million people require Basic Universal Income to survive we are going to have unmanageable social-problems. We'll just have to agree to disagree !

 

[Moonshot]

What a terrible example- Apple ! A company that is sitting on a pile of cash bigger than the GDP of most developping nations !

I'd still argue that AS A SERVICE the human element working on our railways must be seen as a priority. The day that 10 million people require Basic Universal Income to survive we are going to have unmanageable social-problems. We'll just have to agree to disagree !

If Apple decided to spend some of that cash on a UK rail project that wasnt funded by the state and 100% take the risk, would you welcome them with open arms?

 

[Pyreneenguy]

Are you saying its wrong to make a profit and pay dividends? I would argue that the Rail Pension Scheme relies quite heavily on dividends. Interstingly , the RMT themselves have investments which also pay dividends....which I think is pretty smart thinking by the RMT top brass as it does help to pay the costs of legal fees for members who find themselves in hot water.

I am not against private enterprise ! I do think however that there is a place for public utilties and services where making a profit to pay investors isn't a priority.

I digress but an interesting example is EDF ( French electricity) that is investing in the huge Hinkley Point nuclear power station, using technology that has yet to be proven commercially. I can see the scheme going hugely over-budget and the French consumer facing huge rises in the price of their electricity in years to come to meet the short-fall. Previously EDF was a well run and profitable nationalised utility providing the cheapest electricitry in Europe to it's customers, but then the European Union thought better.............

 

[AlterEgo]

I hope you have your flak jacket and tin hat handy, there aren't many who aren't rabid right wing selfish tools on here

If the definition of being a "rabid right wing selfish tool" is to look dispassionately at the needs of the passenger and the staffing level and skill set that requires, then put me down as one. There are many posters with a vested interest in the outcome of the dispute. I am not one of those posters.

When people resort to name-calling it's a sign they've lost the argument.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Ironically Merseyrail is probably the one concession that is the closest to the ideal of regional government control. Merseyside PTE specify everything about the service, including the proposed change to DOO. It doesn't follow that state control would protect staff jobs any more than private control would destroy them. Everyone wants to save money if they think they can.

 

[HowardGWR]

It's a feature of these DOO threads that when I alight on the latest page, I wonder if I am on the right thread. They always go political with chip on the shoulder stuff.

 

[Moonshot]

I am not against private enterprise ! I do think however that there is a place for public utilties and services where making a profit to pay investors isn't a priority.

I digress but an interesting example is EDF ( French electricity) that is investing in the huge Hinkley Point nuclear power station, using technology that has yet to be proven commercially. I can see the scheme going hugely over-budget and the French consumer facing huge rises in the price of their electricity in years to come to meet the short-fall. Previously EDF was a well run and profitable nationalised utility providing the cheapest electricitry in Europe to it's customers, but then the European Union thought better.............

Well I certainly have a choice myself of utility providers in gas electric and telecoms.....just like Network rail do when they offer invitations to tender for the supply of electricity for OHLE.

 

[Pyreneenguy]

If Apple decided to spend some of that cash on a UK rail project that wasnt funded by the state and 100% take the risk, would you welcome them with open arms?

Of course, especially if the company was named "FOXCONN"

 

[Moonshot]

Ironically Merseyrail is probably the one concession that is the closest to the ideal of regional government control. Merseyside PTE specify everything about the service, including the proposed change to DOO. It doesn't follow that state control would protect staff jobs any more than private control would destroy them. Everyone wants to save money if they think they can.

This is so true......I can certainly point to other areas of regional government control where jobs have been reduced or pay rates frozen. the one thing I like about working for a TOC however is that my own rate of pay has kept well ahead of inflation.....good work by the Unions in that respect.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is so true......I can certainly point to other areas of regional government control where jobs have been reduced or pay rates frozen. the one thing I like about working for a TOC however is that my own rate of pay has kept well ahead of inflation.....good work by the Unions in that respect.

There is a slight irony there, though, in that if traincrew were cheaper the Government and TOCs would quite possibly be willing to have more of them.

 

[Moonshot]

Of course, especially if the company was named "FOXCONN"

Or indeed A1Steamtrust who seem to be doing ok with a new steam loco funded by non tax monies.

 

[Pyreneenguy]

It's a feature of these DDO threads that when I alight on the latest page, I wonder if I am on the right thread. They always go political with chip on the shoulder stuff.

It's not " chip on the shoulder" stuff, it's healthy democratic debate.

 

[Moonshot]

There is a slight irony there, though, in that if traincrew were cheaper the Government and TOCs would quite possibly be willing to have more of them.

Well certainly at my TOC we are taking on staff ( conductors and drivers ) at a fair rate of knots right now.

 

[InOban]

1. There are at least two reasons for embarking on a programme to eliminate the driver. One is that for good historical reasons dating back to the age of steam, they ​are highly paid for a job which has been deskilled by technology. The other is that, sadly, suicide by train has become all too common. Nobody should be put in the position where they are in charge of a lethal object and quite unable to prevent it killing someone.

2. I not only believe that on-train and platform staff are desirable, they should be mandatory. The RMT also represent the crews on the ferries such as those out of Liverpool. These ships cannot sail unless they have the full complement required by their passenger certificate (not by the number of passengers actually aboard). Only last week in Scotland a CALMAC route had to be cancelled for the day after 5 crew failed a breathalyser and were summarily dismissed.

3. One of the reasons for the rise in train use is that it insurance for young people has become unaffordable. The tradition of sitting ones driving test 17 and getting some wheels ASAP has declined.

 

[northwichcat]

The other is that, sadly, suicide by train has become all too common. Nobody should be put in the position where they are in charge of a lethal object and quite unable to prevent it killing someone.

The solution to that is to do more to help people with mental health problems, rather than changing whether it's a human or a robot that's in charge of the thing that kills a suicidal person.

I not only believe that on-train and platform staff are desirable, they should be mandatory. The RMT also represent the crews on the ferries such as those out of Liverpool. These ships cannot sail unless they have the full complement required by their passenger certificate (not by the number of passengers actually aboard). Only last week in Scotland a CALMAC route had to be cancelled for the day after 5 crew failed a breathalyser and were summarily dismissed.

I'm not sure on the legal requirements for ferries but I know for airlines as well as the pilot and co-pilot there must be one additional crew member for every 50 passenger seats. While a bus must have a driver - an automated vehicle can not currently be used. There must be a reason why trains don't have such strict requirements by law e.g. train travel being safer than other modes of travel.

 

[northwichcat]

What a terrible example- Apple ! A company that is sitting on a pile of cash bigger than the GDP of most developping nations !

How is it a terrible example? Apple prematurely ended support for something when the replacement hadn't been fully developed and it had consequences for people employed by numerous businesses globally, not just people skilled in the technology they dropped but also support staff in businesses which used those technologies.

Compare that to DOO on Merseyrail. That affects one role with one employer in one city region and getting rid of guards doesn't have the knock-on effect of the rest of Merseyrail needing to downsize.

So if you want a socialist society that puts jobs first Merseyrail would be low down on the list of priorities.

 

[HH]

There are a certain number of staff you need at minimum to run a railway, even a quiet one.

Yes, but it goes well beyond that. For instance, at any other TOC there would be shorter ticket office opening hours at many stations and there wouldn't be duplication of effort with ticket checkers on train as well as at ticket barriers.

If there's not a deliberate policy to create jobs I would be very surprised indeed.

 

[Carlisle]

2.The RMT also represent the crews on the ferries such as those out of Liverpool. These ships cannot sail unless they have the full complement required by their passenger certificate .

Isn't that because it's generally acknowledged that an evacuation or serious incident at sea is likely to be a far more specialist and/or labour intensive operation to adequately carry out compared to leaving a failed train on dry land

 

[4973]

How is it a terrible example? Apple prematurely ended support for something when the replacement hadn't been fully developed and it had consequences for people employed by numerous businesses globally, not just people skilled in the technology they dropped but also support staff in businesses which used those technologies.

Going somewhat off-topic to set the record straight - Apple were not the only company to drop support for Flash, Google and Mozilla did so as well. The reason was the appalling security record of Flash Player and Adobe's reluctance (or inability) to do anything about it despite a campaign of over 12 months from security experts.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Going somewhat off-topic to set the record straight - Apple were not the only company to drop support for Flash, Google and Mozilla did so as well. The reason was the appalling security record of Flash Player and Adobe's reluctance (or inability) to do anything about it despite a campaign of over 12 months from security experts.

Flash is garbage, in any case.

The nature of the IT industry is not such that it will have caused problems, anyway. Rapid and frequent reskilling is the norm - it just moves too fast to have a job role unchanged for 5 years, let along for life.

 

[Clip]

Sorry, but the railways are a public service, they should never have been privatised in the pathetic manner that thdey were !

The railways were never built as a public service and have been in private hands for far longer then they have been nationalised.

 

[driver_m]

Trying to get this thread back on topic. Are more strikes scheduled?

 

[northwichcat]

Going somewhat off-topic to set the record straight - Apple were not the only company to drop support for Flash, Google and Mozilla did so as well. The reason was the appalling security record of Flash Player and Adobe's reluctance (or inability) to do anything about it despite a campaign of over 12 months from security experts.

Apple dropped it before HTML5 was a viable alternative. Google and Mozilla waited until they supported HTML5 and haven't prevented people using Flash - they just changed automatically play content in Flash unless you choose to block it to automatically block content unless you choose to play it.