Expired Railcard: Paying the difference on a ticket?

[flatly]

I just witnessed a passenger who had brought a ticket from preston to newcastle on a railcard, but the railcard had expired 4 days ago and the passenger hadn't noticed.

The guard wanted to charge the full price for a replacement ticket, not just the difference; is this correct? Seems a bit harsh - this was an expensive ticket so of course the passenger didn't have the money on them. This was on a Northern service.

In the end the guard let them just pay the difference, but still looked like a very stressful experience.

 

[yorkie]

I just witnessed a passenger who had brought a ticket from preston to newcastle on a railcard, but the railcard had expired 4 days ago and the passenger hadn't noticed.

The guard wanted to charge the full price for a replacement ticket, not just the difference; is this correct? Seems a bit harsh - this was an expensive ticket so of course the passenger didn't have the money on them. This was on a Northern service.

It is correct to charge for a new ticket (which can be twice the price in a Penalty Fare area - not applicable to a Northern Rail service, of course)

In the end the guard let them just pay the difference, but still looked like a very stressful experience.

Yes, having the wrong sort of ticket in certain situations can lead to a stressful experience and being treated "harshly", in fact it can result in threats of prosecution (or demands for 3 or 4 figure sums to avoid prosecution).

The rail industry will no doubt argue it has to be this way because otherwise some passengers would 'try it on' all the time and they'd lose revenue as a result. Others would disagree. But one thing is for certain: the situation is not going to change as the Government supports the rights of the train companies in these circumstances and they aren't going to change their minds on that.

The passenger was very lucky to end up only having to pay the difference.

 

[AlterEgo]

I just witnessed a passenger who had brought a ticket from preston to newcastle on a railcard, but the railcard had expired 4 days ago and the passenger hadn't noticed.

The guard wanted to charge the full price for a replacement ticket, not just the difference; is this correct? Seems a bit harsh - this was an expensive ticket so of course the passenger didn't have the money on them. This was on a Northern service.

In the end the guard let them just pay the difference, but still looked like a very stressful experience.

If the passenger didn't have a railcard at all, and only ever had to pay the difference every time they got caught, there'd be no disincentive.

 

[gray1404]

I still think though it is best that these situations are dealt with professionally and with the up most of respect. In other words, if it can be avoided that they they become stressful then that is for the better.

We all make innocent mistakes. Only yesterday I boarded a service thinking I had my ticket on me and it was only when I got home I only then realised I had left my ticket on my desk at home. It was with a TOC that operates a PF scheme too.

 

[Merseysider]

It comes down to compromise. The guard can either insist upon a full ticket and risk collecting no revenue at all, or charge the difference, collect the lesser fare and keep an eye out for that person in future. I'd like to think that discretion plays a part too.

We all make innocent mistakes.

Yup. I forgot to validate my Northern ticket this very evening and only realised when the guard came round.

 

[gray1404]

This is a tough one because, in practice discretion is best. But in reality how that plays out depends on which guard you get on the day. Then it results in customers being treated differently then claiming they have been treated unfairly.

I think once a national policy comes out stating what will happen if you forget your railcard that will help. I do think something like a 2 strikes in a 12 month period would be best (rather then 2 strikes in a lifetime). Although in this case it is an out of date railcard rather then one that has been left at home.

 

[yorkie]

I think once a national policy comes out stating what will happen if you forget your railcard that will help. I do think something like a 2 strikes in a 12 month period would be best (rather then 2 strikes in a lifetime).

Been discussed in many, many threads before, and many TOCs do have a consistent policy on this now. So let's not go through this again.

Although in this case it is an out of date railcard rather then one that has been left at home.

Indeed. Let's not confuse the issue.

 

[Haywain]

I think once a national policy comes out stating what will happen if you forget your railcard that will help. I do think something like a 2 strikes in a 12 month period would be best (rather then 2 strikes in a lifetime). Although in this case it is an out of date railcard rather then one that has been left at home.

I think that the railcard terms and conditions already set out a clear national policy. The problem is with the determination to be seen to be less harsh.

And as for a stressful experience, some people will find simply being asked for more money stressful.

 

[najaB]

I think once a national policy comes out stating what will happen if you forget your railcard that will help.

There is a national policy coming soon, and it requires the passenger to buy a new ticket. As it should.

 

[PeterC]

And as for a stressful experience, some people will find simply being asked for more money stressful.

I used to work as a bouncer and I agree, there are some people who find paying for the services that thery use far too stressful. I was once screamed at and called a fascist for daring to tell a woman that she had to pay to see the band like everybody else.

It is usually easy enough to tell the chancers from the genuine mistakes but when there are too many chancers it means more intrusive checks for the good guys.

 

[Matt Taylor]

On SWT Envoy machines we no longer have the option of upgrading the ticket, it has to be a new ticket.

 

[paul1609]

Matt, Slightly off topic but do the SWT Envoy machines now allow you to offer a route change excess? I'm thinking of the Route Three Bridges (Ex Southern Only) tickets?

 

[yorkie]

Matt, Slightly off topic but do the SWT Envoy machines now allow you to offer a route change excess? I'm thinking of the Route Three Bridges (Ex Southern Only) tickets?

If they didn't, you'd get to do the more expensive route for free!

 

[paul1609]

If they didn't, you'd get to do the more expensive route for free!

That had obviously never crossed my mind

 

[Matt Taylor]

Matt, Slightly off topic but do the SWT Envoy machines now allow you to offer a route change excess? I'm thinking of the Route Three Bridges (Ex Southern Only) tickets?

Yes, and I did one last night Lake-Gatwick via Barnham changed to Rte Clap Jnc Not London!

 

[paddington]

But in this case the passenger presented (as I read it) a railcard that had just expired, not exactly the same as a passenger who doesn't have a railcard on them.

If the passenger immediately offered to pay the excess, and didn't have enough cash to pay for a new ticket, then it seems sensible for a guard to just avoid unnecessary hassle

If the passenger doesn't have a railcard then it would make sense to make them buy a full ticket and get it refunded.

I have also accidentally travelled on invalid tickets. In my case I had split tickets but missed a train I intended to take, and the service ran hourly but with two alternating calling patterns, so it didn't stop where I was meant to change between tickets.

 

[bb21]

If they didn't, you'd get to do the more expensive route for free!

An Unpaid Fare Notice can still be issued, as the excess fare is still due.

Whether anyone will bother with it in those cases remains to be seen.

 

[JaJaWa]

The passenger was very lucky to end up only having to pay the difference.

Disagree that he was "very lucky" – I once travelled on a Railcard that had just expired accidentally, and when it was checked the guard endorsed my tickets for travel and marked on the Railcard that it had expired and I shouldn't use it again.

There is a national policy coming soon, and it requires the passenger to buy a new ticket. As it should.

It's not coming soon, it was implemented last month

What will we do for customers? Where a customer holding a valid Railcard forgets it at the time of travel, they will on the first occasion be able to claim back any additional expense, including the cost of any extra fare and any penalty fare issued.
How will it happen? In a similar manner as for when a Season Ticket left at home, customers will be able to provide proof of their Railcard online, by post or at the ticket office of the train company that they travelled with in order to obtain a refund or cancellation of additional charge, including the cost of any extra fare and any penalty fare issued.
Timescale February 2017

 

[najaB]

It's not coming soon, it was implemented last month

Ah, thanks. For some reason I thought it was starting from April 1st.

 

[455driver]

Disagree that he was "very lucky" – I once travelled on a Railcard that had just expired accidentally, and when it was checked the guard endorsed my tickets for travel and marked on the Railcard that it had expired and I shouldn't use it again.




It's not coming soon, it was implemented last month

That is if the passenger has forgotton a valid railcard not for expired railcards as in this case!

 

[janb]

It's not coming soon, it was implemented last month

Northern implemented their own version on February 28th. Of course it deals with forgotten railcards rather than expired ones.


It is supposed to be a new ticket, but there are times where it feels more sensible on customer service grounds just to do an excess.

 

[clagmonster]

On SWT Envoy machines we no longer have the option of upgrading the ticket, it has to be a new ticket.

What happens if a passenger travels with a discounted ticket with a cost of less than £8.00 before 10:00 on a weekday that doesn't occur in July or August? Surely the correct excess for travelling at a time when the ticket is not valid would be the excess to an undiscounted ticket.

 

[Ed92uk]

I travelled other day but my railcard expired 28th February. I know I am forgetful so when I ordered my replacement a few weeks ago I put the letter and new card in my bag so I always had it on me when traveling.

The guard took my old railcard off me so I couldn't try to use it again. I wasn't happy about this but I thought under the circumstances best not to argue.

Also off topic but I tend to buy mobile app tickets now and 9 times out of 10 the railcard doesn't get checked. I think they need to look at creating mobile railcards - similar to train line advances can be added to apple wallet.

 

[JaJaWa]

Also off topic but I tend to buy mobile app tickets now and 9 times out of 10 the railcard doesn't get checked. I think they need to look at creating mobile railcards - similar to train line advances can be added to apple wallet.

They are - all advances are coming to Apple Wallet too

 

[sarahj]

Yes, and I did one last night Lake-Gatwick via Barnham changed to Rte Clap Jnc Not London!

IIRC you just have to do it the other way round. Find the original ticket, basket it up, then the new ticket and go from there.

 

[mrmartin]

I still can't understand why there can't be a central database of railcards which you can show via an app. The app could also remind you a month before, two weeks etc that your railcard was going to expire. You could then renew at a click of a button (if it was still possible), generating more income for the TOCs and cutting down queues at ticket offices.

But no, the rail industry always assumes everyone is out dodging fares and every passenger should never be able to be forgetful etc.

 

[najaB]

I still can't understand why there can't be a central database of railcards which you can show via an app.

Apparently it's on the way: Railcards - why no phone app?