East Midlands Franchise competition

[bb21]

Any particular reason? Did they do a better job than MML?

As a daily commuter, the best intercity operator for service reliability. Punctuality-wise the HSTs struggle a little at times, and services are heavily disrupted by problems on Thameslink, but overall good, and that comes from years of experience travelling since the MML days. MML also did well, but being able to continue a well-performing operation is no mean feat in itself.

They may benefit from the line being free from frequent OHL problems, but their service recovery is very effective compared to other intercity operators.

The rural operations are miles better than when CT operated the franchise, and CT didn't exactly do much ground work as someone else claimed before handing over.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

You mention EMT being short of DDA compliant stock yet there are 22 homeless 185s available around the same time. Some of EMTs routes are cleared for 185 operation.

Mere speculation but a traction option overlooked if SWT dont take them on as suggested...

Suppose getting into bed with Trenitalia cant be all bad, First previously bunked up with Keolis...

 

[xc170]

I also live in the East Midlands and Central Trains /MML did all the ground work for EMT and they have improved things but it is a different franchise than what it was many years ago.

You sure about that? MML did much of the groudwork on the intercity side of things... but what exactly did Central do? They may have kept the exterior of there fleet relitivly smart but internally they were pretty scruffy, stations were an uncared for mess and the timetables were all over the place.

 

[class26]

You sure about that? MML did much of the groudwork on the intercity side of things... but what exactly did Central do? They may have kept the exterior of there fleet relitivly smart but internally they were pretty scruffy, stations were an uncared for mess and the timetables were all over the place.

and Central cancelled many trains on my line , when there is one an hour, no waiting rooms on stations this turned many back to their cars

 

[edwin_m]

Central did some of the "big" things right - ordering 170s beyond their franchise commitment, expanding the network and providing some useful through services (most of which were abandoned at SRA/DfT insistence or as a result of the franchise split). However they never seemed able to manage the "small" things such as getting the right train on a particular service or having the trains themselves in decent condition.

For example you would see a lot of lawyers on the 0810ish from Nottingham to Birmingham presumably to attend courts there, and whenever it turned up as a 150 you could almost see them vowing to drive next time, as they tried to read their case files balanced on their knees.

Overall I think EMT has done a decent job with the ragbag of leftover rolling stock it was given and the lack of any provision for service enhancement in the franchise.

 

[HH]

The rural operations are miles better than when CT operated the franchise, and CT didn't exactly do much ground work as someone else claimed before handing over.

I agree that they are better than CT (hard not to be really). Hopefully the changed franchises also put an end to the silliness that used to exist between MML & CT - two franchises run by the same group that wouldn't talk to one another at any level.

 

[IanXC]

It will be interesting to see what the bidders propose for the DMU fleet. If it is not to involve a new build fleet then it all comes down to how the 153 fleet is currently used, while there are 8x 156s due to come available from Greater Anglia, and another 5 from ScotRail, I have a sneaking suspicion 13 would not cover the 153 work.

There's also the question of Corby. 379s anyone?

 

[northwichcat]

Mentioned (again) is the possibility of Liverpool to Nottingham being transferred to TPE with released 185s being used on that service. That makes it sound like the SWT bidders are unlikely to take up the option of released 185s.

When that was mentioned in the TPE consultation I suggested Leeds-Nottingham should go to EMT, if that happened, to be joined on to Nottingham to Norwich to retain cross-Nottingham links. However, with Northern set to start a Bradford to Nottingham Northern Connect route that possibility seems to have gone.

 

[Timrud]

I hope things stay as they are - I feel they are the best TOC around

 

[3141]

I wouldn't put money on them retaining either.

I wouldn't put money on the outcome of any franchise renewal, because whatever I may think about how well a company has performed, it's the best bid, as assessed by the DfT, that determines the outcome.

 

[edwin_m]

Mentioned (again) is the possibility of Liverpool to Nottingham being transferred to TPE with released 185s being used on that service. That makes it sound like the SWT bidders are unlikely to take up the option of released 185s.

When that was mentioned in the TPE consultation I suggested Leeds-Nottingham should go to EMT, if that happened, to be joined on to Nottingham to Norwich to retain cross-Nottingham links. However, with Northern set to start a Bradford to Nottingham Northern Connect route that possibility seems to have gone.

I think that was considered when the service first extended to Nottingham and concluded that Northern could resource it more cost-effectively than EMT. And Rail North probably doesn't want another operator providing "internal" services within their area.

Leeds-Norwich has less benefit than Liverpool-Norwich because it will be much quicker to use the ECML to Peterborough and change there.

 

[Qwerty133]

It will be interesting to see what the bidders propose for the DMU fleet. If it is not to involve a new build fleet then it all comes down to how the 153 fleet is currently used, while there are 8x 156s due to come available from Greater Anglia, and another 5 from ScotRail, I have a sneaking suspicion 13 would not cover the 153 work.

There's also the question of Corby. 379s anyone?

I think the 153s will basically need to be replaced on a one-for-one basis, and thats before considering needed extra capacity on services that are already 2 coaches. Personally I think Corby should be cut off the EMT franchise and given to Thameslink as it really doesn't fit in with the rest of the franchise, and it is difficult to see how a microfleet of EMUs could be avoided.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the 153s will basically need to be replaced on a one-for-one basis, and thats before considering needed extra capacity on services that are already 2 coaches. Personally I think Corby should be cut off the EMT franchise and given to Thameslink as it really doesn't fit in with the rest of the franchise, and it is difficult to see how a microfleet of EMUs could be avoided.

Yes, I would agree, wiring Corby and making it part of Thameslink would make sense.

 

[222001]

Mentioned (again) is the possibility of Liverpool to Nottingham being transferred to TPE with released 185s being used on that service. That makes it sound like the SWT bidders are unlikely to take up the option of released 185s.

They keep throwing the splitting into the ring at every opportunity they have, and they'll probably get it in the end... We'll find out more when the consultation comes out, which is coming up to 3 months overdue now!

 

[HH]

From what I hear Class 185s were not in either bidders plans for Southwestern. Probably too costly.

 

[northwichcat]

From what I hear Class 185s were not in either bidders plans for Southwestern. Probably too costly.

Stagecoach did take the unusual approach of making their decision to look at new rolling stock options for SWT public.

 

[HH]

As Jamie Burles said at the Transport select Committee, we had a point in time where the business case for new rolling stock was very strong. Heading towards Brexit that's probably no longer the case, but during this bid it certainly would have been.

 

[Qwerty133]

As Jamie Burles said at the Transport select Committee, we had a point in time where the business case for new rolling stock was very strong. Heading towards Brexit that's probably no longer the case, but during this bid it certainly would have been.

Of course new stock is suddenly unviable as soon as there are no franchises around London being let...
Time and time again the midlands gets left behind because it has neither the political power of the south east or whining power of the north and scotland.

 

[northwichcat]

I wouldn't be surprised if the winning SWT bid proposes an all new 'self-powered' fleet and releasing all the 158s and 159s. There would be plenty of interest for them elsewhere - EMT, GWR and Wales & Borders could all utilise additional 158/159s.

 

[The Ham]

I wouldn't be surprised if the winning SWT bid proposes an all new 'self-powered' fleet and releasing all the 158s and 159s. There would be plenty of interest for them elsewhere - EMT, GWR and Wales & Borders could all utilise additional 158/159s.

The problem SWT has with its sprinters is that they don't firm into nice 10 coach trains easily. As such I would agree with the above, but possibly with them being 5 coach units. It would mean a slight reduction in capacity over a 6 coach train formed of 2*159's when they run on their own, but could allow every peak hour train to be 10 coaches and some of the very busy services would have to be 10 coaches. Based on a similar layout to a 444 with ASDO it would have the potential to be quite a well liked train.

 

[222001]

From what I hear Class 185s were not in either bidders plans for Southwestern. Probably too costly.

Their route restrictions (can't even do HST speeds!) are horrific, so they'd be a pain in the arse for many operators.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wouldn't be surprised if the winning SWT bid proposes an all new 'self-powered' fleet and releasing all the 158s and 159s. There would be plenty of interest for them elsewhere - EMT, GWR and Wales & Borders could all utilise additional 158/159s.

Given that they spend most of their time on the third rail, bi-modes would be very sensible.

 

[jw]

I do hope the new franchise will be 'transformative', not just in terms of new or upgraded rolling stock, but capacity, frequency and operating hours, particularly across the regional services. Anglia and TPE have set the bar high.

To my mind, the entire CrossCountry Turbostar operation should be added to the EM franchise. Split Cardiff to Nottingham at Birmingham, and let the new Welsh franchise sort out their half of that route. The enlarged EMT could then look to restore Birmingham to Lincoln and explore other synergies.

 

[LTJ87]

I think on the whole EMT have done a decent job.

The London St Pancras services are generally very reliable and they've done the best they can do with the rolling stock they were handed on the local services.

Though, I was quite unimpressed when EMT did a PR campaign promoting "Nottingham in 90" when in fact there was just one train a day with a scheduled journey time of 90 minutes from Nottingham to London.

That said, it really is time for some new thinking on connections between Nottingham and other key cities in the Midlands and the North as connections to places like Birmingham and Manchester are nowhere near as good as they should be.

 

[jw]

That said, it really is time for some new thinking on connections between Nottingham and other key cities in the Midlands and the North as connections to places like Birmingham and Manchester are nowhere near as good as they should be.

This is what the East Midlands Councils have proposed alongside their draft prospectus, which proposed adding in the CrossCountry regional services:

 

[eastdyke]

This is what the East Midlands Councils have proposed alongside their draft prospectus,

Now that Lincoln - Coventry service looks fun (especially at Nuneaton!).

Before anything else, some Sunday morning and early afternoon trains serving Lincolnshire and East Nottinghamshire would help.
In the existing timetable the first Sunday Lincoln/Newark to Nottingham arrives Nottingham 16.20, just in time to see the shops shut.

 

[Chester1]

You mention EMT being short of DDA compliant stock yet there are 22 homeless 185s available around the same time. Some of EMTs routes are cleared for 185 operation.

Mere speculation but a traction option overlooked if SWT dont take them on as suggested...

Suppose getting into bed with Trenitalia cant be all bad, First previously bunked up with Keolis...

Mentioned (again) is the possibility of Liverpool to Nottingham being transferred to TPE with released 185s being used on that service. That makes it sound like the SWT bidders are unlikely to take up the option of released 185s.

When that was mentioned in the TPE consultation I suggested Leeds-Nottingham should go to EMT, if that happened, to be joined on to Nottingham to Norwich to retain cross-Nottingham links. However, with Northern set to start a Bradford to Nottingham Northern Connect route that possibility seems to have gone.

Liverpool to Nottingham with doubled up 185s would be an increase from 274 standard seats to 308 standard and 30 first class seats. It would need 12 units rostered + spares, so some 185s would be available for other franchises. Manchester to Sheffield needs extra capacity asap not in 2019. First will be able to cascade some 185s to double up Transpennine South services but it will not saturate existing demand. Its an odd part of the EMT franchise, I think Rail North etc will get their way eventually.

 

[222001]

Now that Lincoln - Coventry service looks fun (especially at Nuneaton!).

Before anything else, some Sunday morning and early afternoon trains serving Lincolnshire and East Nottinghamshire would help.
In the existing timetable the first Sunday Lincoln/Newark to Nottingham arrives Nottingham 16.20, just in time to see the shops shut.

Nottingham to Lincoln Sunday improvements are coming from May, with the first trains around 9am.

 

[eastdyke]

Nottingham to Lincoln Sunday improvements are coming from May, with the first trains around 9am.

Thanks - very good news.

I would expect Newark-Nottingham to be well used. Do you have any links to the planned TT please?

 

[Quakkerillo]

Thanks - very good news.

I would expect Newark-Nottingham to be well used. Do you have any links to the planned TT please?

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=142671