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Carmarthen to Aberystwyth Reopening?

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squizzler

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In the early 1960's there were 3 million road vehicles in the UK now theirs 30 million plus which have saturated the road systems ability to cope.

Can you name a country in the world that has built more road space that has solved the fundamental Achilles heel of mass car ownership? New roads just encourage more driving and the problem rears its head elsewhere worse than before.

We have to seriously consider limiting road use for the greater good of the economy/environment/ etc

I am puzzled about debates on highway capacity. On one hand we are being told with completely straight face that the cars will all be automatically guided in a few years allowing the lanes to be made narrower and the cars spaced more closely - if this were the case we can already be looking at rationalising the highway network - yet as a society we go on setting aside more land for highways as if capacity will always be that established by prior experience. Which will it be?

I am in rural Wales - Heart of Wales Line territory - and can say everybody here has no money but nonetheless are able to beg borrow or steal a nice car. When the lack of EU farming subsidies happens and government cuts starting to bite even this option might be foreclosed. I think rural railways are going to become a real lifeline in our post-peak-oil world.
 
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Envoy

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The Blue Route M4 would be just throwing more money away as it would only be 2 lanes each way - which is the problem at the tunnel choke point. In addition, the blue route would pass very near to residential areas thus bringing noise and pollution.

An interchange on the Black Route near the docks, would help regenerate south Newport.

Regarding Carmarthen to Aberystwyth; I can’t help but think that given a choice of which line to close, most people would have chosen the Heart of Wales route over a route linking up the west side of Wales. Of course, I am sure that we would ideally have wished for both to remain open along with the link from Afon Wen (near Pwllheli) to Bangor via Caernarfon.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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I am in rural Wales - Heart of Wales Line territory - and can say everybody here has no money but nonetheless are able to beg borrow or steal a nice car. When the lack of EU farming subsidies happens and government cuts starting to bite even this option might be foreclosed. I think rural railways are going to become a real lifeline in our post-peak-oil world.

Does what you say above about rural Wales above now offer a brand new hope for the reinstatement of the Mid-Wales Railway?
 

snowball

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I am puzzled about debates on highway capacity. On one hand we are being told with completely straight face that the cars will all be automatically guided in a few years allowing the lanes to be made narrower and the cars spaced more closely - if this were the case we can already be looking at rationalising the highway network - yet as a society we go on setting aside more land for highways as if capacity will always be that established by prior experience. Which will it be?

I am in rural Wales

Where you live they are very forward-looking and have long ago rationalised the highway network by making the lanes narrower.
 

najaB

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If we look to the numbers who would benefit transportation-wise between the reopening of the Carmarthen to Aberystwyth railway line and the M4 Relief Road, which of these two schemes would carry more people?
The M4 Relief Road. But that's like asking if you prefer to be shot in the arm or the right leg. Much better options exist!
 

DynamicSpirit

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If we look to the numbers who would benefit transportation-wise between the reopening of the Carmarthen to Aberystwyth railway line and the M4 Relief Road, which of these two schemes would carry more people?

Obviously, the M4 relief road would carry more people, but that's not a reasonable comparison when judging between the two, because the M4 relief road will also harm many other people by causing congestion and slowing journey times at other locations around Newport and along the M4, whereas a Carmarthen-Aberystwyth railway is unlikely to cause any comparable harm. In comparing options, you really need to look at the overall balance of good and harm.

(Of course, the other issue is that for both the M4 relief road and the Carmarthen-Aberystwyth railway, there's the opportunity cost of what other improvements the money could have been spent on)
 

Llanigraham

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Where you live they are very forward-looking and have long ago rationalised the highway network by making the lanes narrower.

Considering that Squizzler lives in rural Mid Wales I am intrigued to know where you think that any lane narrowing has occurred; I know of none. The opposite in fact.
 

squizzler

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Considering that Squizzler lives in rural Mid Wales I am intrigued to know where you think that any lane narrowing has occurred; I know of none. The opposite in fact.

Here in Mid Wales we probably have most roads per head of population, such is the good it does to local income levels. Historically the tarmac here is also very well maintained, so those coming home on the Heart of Wales suffer bone-jolting single track just where the motorist entering Powys from the potholed byways of Herefordshire benefits from a sudden improvement in ride quality.

I'm still waiting somebody to address my point that adding highway capacity is an expensive bet that driverless cars is hokum (or at least will not have capacity benefits).

Should we not invest in other transport till we know what roads driverless cars will need, if they come to pass? Not so different to when councils had to learn what highway design features the human operated sort required and reconfigure the streets according.
 
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Envoy

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I just thought that you all might be interested in monitoring the situation on the M4 at Newport! Right now - Friday at 5pm, it is jammed solid westbound all the way from the tunnel to beyond the Severn Crossing Toll Plaza. The A4232 going from Culverhouse Cross to J33 on the M4 is also a crawl due to the fact that traffic heading for M4 eastbound has to cross that coming from the M4 west & heading for the A4232. The proposed Business Park and car park will just make this worse. (When you click the link, it will show you the jams in red - at the time you click the link. You may like to bookmark it for future reference at different times). You would think that with all these traffic jams that everybody would be on the trains!

PS. I think I will move to Mid Wales as they seem to have the best roads v the number of people. Oh, and the Welsh Government maintain these main roads crossing Wales to a very high standard. Those of you entering Cardiff on the very busy A48 Eastern Avenue will notice all the bodging up repairs that Cardiff Council do on this major highway. I wish the WG would take control of all ‘A’ roads.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.578966,-2.917862,11.94z/data=!5m1!1e1
 
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Bald Rick

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Mass road transit is unsustainable and there will never be the resources to build the perfect road systems pinned for plus you have to destroy things to build them. There pointless.

But building a railway through 40 odd miles of open countryside to serve practically no economic need or solve any reasonable transport objective is sustainable?

If building a bypass around Newport isn't the answer, what is? Given that within a decade or so the majority of cars sold in this country will have some form of electric propulsion, the environmental / sustainability argument of building new railways vs new roads pretty much disappears doesn't it? And it then comes down to economics.
 

Llanigraham

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But building a railway through 40 odd miles of open countryside to serve practically no economic need or solve any reasonable transport objective is sustainable?

If building a bypass around Newport isn't the answer, what is? Given that within a decade or so the majority of cars sold in this country will have some form of electric propulsion, the environmental / sustainability argument of building new railways vs new roads pretty much disappears doesn't it? And it then comes down to economics.

Exactly!!
 

DynamicSpirit

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If building a bypass around Newport isn't the answer, what is?

Better public transport around Newport? Investing in some kind of light rail system or more stations and capacity for better local services there? A park and ride East of Newport so some motorists can use the train to get to Cardiff/Swansea/etc. Lots of possibilities that would make transport easier for a lot of people, and possibly have some (admittedly, probably small) impact on reducing traffic on the M4.


Given that within a decade or so the majority of cars sold in this country will have some form of electric propulsion, the environmental / sustainability argument of building new railways vs new roads pretty much disappears doesn't it? And it then comes down to economics.

Electric propulsion does nothing to solve congestion, or the general unpleasantness that too much road traffic causes in many town centres and residential areas, though. (Other than that it may reduce noise levels). Even the environmental/sustainable argument depends on how the electricity to power the cars is generated in the first place, which is not yet clear. In a worst case scenario, if the Government makes little attempt to move to more sustainable electric power generation, there'll be some local benefit in moving the sources of pollution from places where people live to places where people don't live, which is something, but not as good as you'd get by moving towards better public transport use.
 
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Llanigraham

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Better public transport around Newport? Investing in some kind of light rail system or more stations and capacity for better local services there? A park and ride East of Newport so some motorists can use the train to get to Cardiff/Swansea/etc. Lots of possibilities that would make transport easier for a lot of people, and possibly have some (admittedly, probably small) impact on reducing traffic on the M4.

How does that help the long distance traffic that uses the M4?
How does that help the goods vehicles coming from England?
If people have driven across the Severn Bridge to go to West Wales (say) they are not going to want to leave their cars east of Newport.
Your "plan" would only help local traffic.
 

AndrewE

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I would have thought it was self-evident that not clogging up the M4 with people making local journeys is an obvious first step.

The biggest mistake when the M25 was built was to put in so many connections (to buy off local opposition, a bit like Crossrail) which has just increased the number of short journeys on it (like the school run) and stuffed its objective as a strategic link avoiding London traffic.

(But aren't we more than a bit off-topic?)
A
 
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DynamicSpirit

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I just thought that you all might be interested in monitoring the situation on the M4 at Newport! Right now - Friday at 5pm, it is jammed solid westbound all the way from the tunnel to beyond the Severn Crossing Toll Plaza. The A4232 going from Culverhouse Cross to J33 on the M4 is also a crawl due to the fact that traffic heading for M4 eastbound has to cross that coming from the M4 west & heading for the A4232.

That sounds pretty bad, and must be very frustrating for all those caught in it. But it doesn't change the point that the only real solution to congestion is to make it easier for people not to have to drive. If you try to solve the current issues by building a new road, then yes, you'll improve things for those people caught in the current congestion, but that won't be because you've solved the congestion - it'll be because you've moved the congestion onto other roads (as a result of the inevitable modal shift to driving that the new road will induce), thereby causing new misery to other people - including other motorists.

How does that help the long distance traffic that uses the M4?

It helps them by taking some traffic off the congested part of the M4, thereby leaving the M4 a bit less congested for those who are unable to use whatever new public transport is provided and still have to drive along it.
 
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Llanigraham

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That sounds pretty bad, and must be very frustrating for all those caught in it. But it doesn't change the point that the only real solution to congestion is to make it easier for people not to have to drive. If you try to solve the current issues by building a new road, then yes, you'll improve things for those people caught in the current congestion, but that won't be because you've solved the congestion - it'll be because you've moved the congestion onto other roads (as a result of the inevitable modal shift to driving that the new road will induce), thereby causing new misery to other people - including other motorists.



It helps them by taking some traffic off the congested part of the M4, thereby leaving the M4 a bit less congested for those who are unable to use whatever new public transport is provided and still have to drive along it.

From my own experience, and I do use the M4 east of Newport often, the traffic is NOT local and is NOT heading into Newport, but is heading further west. Therefore a diversion around the bottle neck will help.
 

Rhydgaled

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The Blue Route M4 would be just throwing more money away as it would only be 2 lanes each way - which is the problem at the tunnel choke point. In addition, the blue route would pass very near to residential areas thus bringing noise and pollution.
I repeat, the ONLY problem I can see that MIGHT require a road-building solution is the impact on the rest of the road network when the M4 is blocked at Brynglas. If so, it needs a solution which won't attract extra traffic, but will help the. Thus, the very fact that the blue route is only two lanes works in its favour; it is less likely to increase traffic but could still ease the problem of the M4 being blocked at Brynglas. In other words, I think traffic that currently uses the M4 should only use the Blue Route if the M4 is blocked.

Regarding Carmarthen to Aberystwyth; I can’t help but think that given a choice of which line to close, most people would have chosen the Heart of Wales route over a route linking up the west side of Wales. Of course, I am sure that we would ideally have wished for both to remain open along with the link from Afon Wen (near Pwllheli) to Bangor via Caernarfon.
I don't think closing those two routes was necessarily a bad idea actually. Except perhaps the section from Bangor to Caernarfon, I don't think they look like they would meet modern requirements (too slow to compete with driving). The same could perhaps be said of the HOWL. Going back to the Caernarfon and Lampeter routes, to be fit for the modern world the southern half of both would need rerouting or tweaking in a number of places, as shown on the rail Wales map on my website.

I am puzzled about debates on highway capacity. On one hand we are being told with completely straight face that the cars will all be automatically guided in a few years allowing the lanes to be made narrower and the cars spaced more closely - if this were the case we can already be looking at rationalising the highway network - yet as a society we go on setting aside more land for highways as if capacity will always be that established by prior experience. Which will it be?
If self-driving cars become a reality, I hope they don't end up being owned by individuals and frequently used on motorways; I think that would be very bad. It would bestow some of the features that attract pepole to public transport (using a laptop while travelling, for example) to private cars, making modal shift even harder to achieve.

The good version of self-driving cars would be as a rural on-demand 'last-mile' link in the public transport system (like Bwcabus*, only more-responsive, with the ability to make bookings closer to your departure time). You book the car, it comes and collects you then drives you to the nearest suitable bus stop / train station for your journey, perhaps picking somebody else up on the way. If the stop has no shelter, it waits with you until your train/bus arrives, they you get out of the car and onto the bus/train.

* I assume, I've not actually tried it.

I am in rural Wales - Heart of Wales Line territory - and can say everybody here has no money but nonetheless are able to beg borrow or steal a nice car. When the lack of EU farming subsidies happens and government cuts starting to bite even this option might be foreclosed. I think rural railways are going to become a real lifeline in our post-peak-oil world.
Does what you say above about rural Wales above now offer a brand new hope for the reinstatement of the Mid-Wales Railway?
Trains are expensive; if it is cost that drives pepole out of their cars, I think the solution is more likely to be a mass resurection of rural bus services (or the on-demand rural self-driving shared car system I mentioned above).

the Welsh Government maintain these main roads crossing Wales to a very high standard. Those of you entering Cardiff on the very busy A48 Eastern Avenue will notice all the bodging up repairs that Cardiff Council do on this major highway. I wish the WG would take control of all ‘A’ roads.
I'm not so sure about that, one lane of the A487 was closed for months a few years back before they found the money to fix the subsidance issue causing the closure. Although I'm anti-bypass, I am pro-bus and buses need roads so I do think they should maintain the roads we have. Also, I accept that private cars cannot be completely eliminated and it is greener not to have them standing at a red light more than is necessary. Instead of building all these bypasses, it would be useful if a share of the budget currently used for building them was put aside as an emergency repair contingency fund (with the rest used for public transport / NHS / other good causes).

But building a railway through 40 odd miles of open countryside to serve practically no economic need or solve any reasonable transport objective is sustainable?
Maybe, maybe not; it depends how many cars you can take off the road compared to other options such as better bus services or increasing the tax on petrol/diesel for cars.

IGiven that within a decade or so the majority of cars sold in this country will have some form of electric propulsion, the environmental / sustainability argument of building new railways vs new roads pretty much disappears doesn't it?
Not really, no. Diesel cars are generally more polluting than diesel buses and (with the possible exception of Voyagers) diesel trains. Electric public transport (with the possible exception of HS2 at 200 odd mph) is still going to be more energy efficient than private transport, and even renewables have emissions associated with the construction of the generating equipment (so the less generation capacity you need, the better). And, of course:

Electric propulsion does nothing to solve congestion

How does that help the long distance traffic that uses the M4?
Since you weren't responding to one of my posts there, I will attempt to answer a slightly different question. "How could you help take long distance traffic off the M4?" Putting in capacity and linespeed improvements on the GWML, SDL and the Llanelli-Carmarthen line to allow Carmarthen-Cardiff fast services (calling at only Llanelli and Port Talbot and ideally taking 70 minutes or less) and possibly later extending them to Aberystwyth might help.
 

Gareth Marston

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I am puzzled about debates on highway capacity. On one hand we are being told with completely straight face that the cars will all be automatically guided in a few years allowing the lanes to be made narrower and the cars spaced more closely - if this were the case we can already be looking at rationalising the highway network - yet as a society we go on setting aside more land for highways as if capacity will always be that established by prior experience. Which will it be?

I am in rural Wales - Heart of Wales Line territory - and can say everybody here has no money but nonetheless are able to beg borrow or steal a nice car. When the lack of EU farming subsidies happens and government cuts starting to bite even this option might be foreclosed. I think rural railways are going to become a real lifeline in our post-peak-oil world.

Either the right hand doesn't know what the left is doing or someones telling porkies. I see that "independent peoples organization" The Taxpayers Alliance has been screaming that driverless cars makes HS2 redundant recently.

I suspect the road building contractors still have influence plus many politicians are obsessed by the notion that road construction brings economic prosperity. Also the driverless car seems to be a stick to beat calls for improved public transport with rather than a real practical solution that's deliverable today.
 

Greenback

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The line is not viable, full stop. The reasons that lines like this one were built in the first place are no longer relevant. Whether we like it or not, there are alternatives for bringing goods in and taking local products out now that didn't exist back in Victorian times. That's why lines were constructed, not so passengers could be transported to Cardiff or Swansea.
 

steamybrian

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The line is not viable, full stop. The reasons that lines like this one were built in the first place are no longer relevant. Whether we like it or not, there are alternatives for bringing goods in and taking local products out now that didn't exist back in Victorian times. That's why lines were constructed, not so passengers could be transported to Cardiff or Swansea.

I agree that this line would not be viable as it passes through small villages and no areas of large population. There are plenty of other lines that could be reopened serving areas of large populations and/or acting as diversionary routes. These have been mentioned before but I would prefer to see money spent on lines which would have far better value for money for example-
Plymouth- Okehampton-Exeter
Uckfield- Lewes
York- Market Weighton- Beverley
Newcastle- Ashington- Morpeth.
 

HowardGWR

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I agree that this line would not be viable as it passes through small villages and no areas of large population. There are plenty of other lines that could be reopened serving areas of large populations and/or acting as diversionary routes. These have been mentioned before but I would prefer to see money spent on lines which would have far better value for money for example-
Plymouth- Okehampton-Exeter
Uckfield- Lewes
York- Market Weighton- Beverley
Newcastle- Ashington- Morpeth.

Well, if we stay in Wales (devolution rules OK) then I would have thought that considerable expansion projects in the proposed S Wales Metro area would swallow any funds for 'nice to have' projects with infinitely higher priority. We have a thread for those.
 
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Rhydgaled

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I agree that this line would not be viable as it passes through small villages and no areas of large population. There are plenty of other lines that could be reopened serving areas of large populations and/or acting as diversionary routes. These have been mentioned before but I would prefer to see money spent on lines which would have far better value for money for example-
Plymouth- Okehampton-Exeter
Uckfield- Lewes
York- Market Weighton- Beverley
Newcastle- Ashington- Morpeth.
There are far better cases elsewhere yes, but the present Cambrian service is well used out of Aberystwyth, with a journey time (to Shrewsbury) that is competitive with driving. Provide a similar standard of service to Cardiff and the lack of intermediate population on the Carmarthen-Aberystwyth section MIGHT not matter all that much. That would be expensive though and there are better uses for the money (and worse ones).
 

steamybrian

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OK for the Welsh viewers a few lines in Wales that could be reopened that in my opinion could offer better value for money than Aberystwyth- Carmarthen-
Bangor- Caernarfon
Treherbert- Maesteg
Bangor- Llangefni or Amlwch
Abertillery-Aberbeeg
 

Greenback

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As Amlwch didn't wash it's face, how could Carmarthen to Aberystwyth?

As I've said before, if it hadn't been closed it probably wouldn't be now. But it was and this is one of those routes where buses can cater for demand quite adequately.

As an enthusiast of railways, I'd like nothing better than to see lines reopened. I'm also a realist, though, and I have to recognise that as things stand, it's a pretty hopeless ambition in this case.

Maybe we'll look at things differently in a decade or two. Or maybe it will take a century. Never say never and all that, but definitely not now.
 

Rhydgaled

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But it was and this is one of those routes where buses can cater for demand quite adequately.
I wouldn't describe the current bus service between Carmarthen and Aberystwyth as adequate; not for through journeys at any rate. TrawsCymru cannot be taken seriously as a long-distance travel option at the moment because the routes make detours (although those on the Carmarthen-Aberystwyth service aren't the worst, that dubious honour goes to the Aberystwyth-Haverfordwest service) and the buses need to be much nicer (more legroom etc.).
 

HowardGWR

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Apart from competing rail projects with better qualifications, I think Welsh voters have to take on board their environmental and social aims, as well as economic ones. I visited west Wales because it is beautiful. It's a rural area (few people is what rural means) and thus it is important for west and north west Wales that it stays that way. Its economy is purely based on that fact, and thus if you carry on a business there (tourism) then you don't want easy access, because it's counter-productive. It's bad enough already, that some South Wales people have disfigured parts of their coastal landscape with their tatty caravan sites.

Welsh people have to make their mind up, what sort of country they want.
 

Rhydgaled

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Apart from competing rail projects with better qualifications, I think Welsh voters have to take on board their environmental and social aims, as well as economic ones. I visited west Wales because it is beautiful. It's a rural area (few people is what rural means) and thus it is important for west and north west Wales that it stays that way. Its economy is purely based on that fact, and thus if you carry on a business there (tourism) then you don't want easy access, because it's counter-productive. It's bad enough already, that some South Wales people have disfigured parts of their coastal landscape with their tatty caravan sites.

Welsh people have to make their mind up, what sort of country they want.
Tourists are people. Businesses presumably want the tourists to come, but as you say if too many people come it won't be rural anymore. We want some tourists, presumably, but how many is too many? Leaving aside that conundrum, you want to prevent the tourists that do come ruining the rural environment. If the tourists come by car, that's not going to help the environment (car parks can be an eyesore just as caravan sites can); public transport is much better.
 
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