Arriva Rail North DOO

[XCTurbostar]

Will both Northern and Merseyrail receive a franchise protection from the DfT to cover losses incurred on any rail union strike days?

Unlikely. Since it's written in their franchise specification. It will be in the TOCs best interest to resolve the situation. Southern was different in that the passenger fares were given back to the government and the taxpayer subsidised the TOC. I don't think any of that is true for Merseyrail or Northern.

I think the thing to note here is that Northern and Merseyrail are coming at the DOO from different sides. Northern has to introduce DOO as it is in their contract. Merseyrail doesn't have to but would like to streamline the on board staff while their at it.

Thanks,
Ross

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

One such matter that will be of assistance to commuters in certain parts of Greater Manchester on rail strike days is the large Manchester Metrolink system as well as many areas being covered by bus services, including the V1/V2/V3 "Vantage" buses on the Leigh Guided Busway what run from Leigh and Atherton to the city core of Manchester.

There were those who poured scorn on the X43 "Lancashire Witch" bus service from Burnley to Manchester city centre and its 15 minute frequency when the Todmorden Chord was first put forward (which then went into limbo for a year) but at least that bus service offers a route into Manchester on rail strike days, in the same way that the X41 bus service from Blackburn and Accrington does.

Mind you, you can't please everyone, as there are bound to be those who will moan "But it takes too long". These will be the same ones who cannot be bothered to make an effort to rise a tad earlier in the morning...:roll:

 

[lejog]

Unlikely. Since it's written in their franchise specification. It will be in the TOCs best interest to resolve the situation. Southern was different in that the passenger fares were given back to the government and the taxpayer subsidised the TOC. I don't think any of that is true for Merseyrail or Northern.

Possibly, possibly not.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/northern-rail-2016-rail-franchise-agreement

Edit: there are actually two clauses relating to industrial action

Miscellaneous Payment Provisions
The Secretary of State, in his discretion, may at any time decide to reimburse or ameliorate net losses of the Franchisee arising from Industrial Action (however caused and of whatever nature) in circumstances where the Franchisee has demonstrated to the satisfaction of the Secretary of State that it has taken all reasonable steps to avoid the Industrial Action and that, Industrial Action having nevertheless occurred, the Franchisee has taken all reasonable steps to mitigate its effect

and the Force Majeure clause saying that Northern will not be responsible for breaches of the franchise contract due to industrial action.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

Shouldn't have. It's been taken out of the briefs for a while

The video is back, and it is damning. Best piece of evidence against DOO you could have.

Let's be honest about this. The rail regulator was set up by the government, it is a government backed organisation. When did a government backed organisation go against it's 'paymasters?' Organised lying in society is rife these days, the sad part is that sad people believe them.

Have you noticed how little press coverage the coming chaos has generated. If this was southernrail it would be splashed all over the BBC. However, this is Liverpool and the north isn't it.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

Possibly, possibly not.

Since the government will be paying. It makes me more determined than ever. You can't do enough for a good government. Upsetting a Tory should be an Olympic sport.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Upsetting a Tory should be an Olympic sport.

I think that I will enter for the "Laughing at Corbyn" event in the same Olympic competition that you refer to above....

 

[northwichcat]

One such matter that will be of assistance to commuters in certain parts of Greater Manchester on rail strike days is the large Manchester Metrolink system as well as many areas being covered by bus services, including the V1/V2/V3 "Vantage" buses on the Leigh Guided Busway what run from Leigh and Atherton to the city core of Manchester.

There were those who poured scorn on the X43 "Lancashire Witch" bus service from Burnley to Manchester city centre and its 15 minute frequency when the Todmorden Chord was first put forward (which then went into limbo for a year) but at least that bus service offers a route into Manchester on rail strike days, in the same way that the X41 bus service from Blackburn and Accrington does.

Mind you, you can't please everyone, as there are bound to be those who will moan "But it takes too long". These will be the same ones who cannot be bothered to make an effort to rise a tad earlier in the morning...:roll:

Last time there was a strike it was over a dispute over how many days should be worked around Christmas when it falls at a weekend and there is a Bank Holiday lieu day. I recall a skeleton service operated on many Greater Manchester routes like Hazel Grove to Manchester and Bolton to Manchester but outside the PTE areas few, if any, services ran.

If someone in Altrincham has to get to Northwich when there are no trains getting up earlier isn't a solution. The first bus is 10:53 and the last bus back is 16:53.

 

[northwichcat]

Have you noticed how little press coverage the coming chaos has generated. If this was southernrail it would be splashed all over the BBC. However, this is Liverpool and the north isn't it.

That's commonplace for rail in the north generally. Have you seen many reports about the Ordsall Chord or the upcoming TPE improvements on the national news?

 

[wingsoveryorks]

Last time there was a strike it was over a dispute over how many days should be worked around Christmas when it falls at a weekend and there is a Bank Holiday lieu day. I recall a skeleton service operated on many Greater Manchester routes like Hazel Grove to Manchester and Bolton to Manchester but outside the PTE areas few, if any, services ran.

If someone in Altrincham has to get to Northwich when there are no trains getting up earlier isn't a solution. The first bus is 10:53 and the last bus back is 16:53.

Most did not agree with that strike, and a lot of staff turned up. They could have run a near normal service in most areas. But the problem is that they have no idea who will support the action, and that's the problem of drawing up a timetable.
They say they have contingency plans, and they have, but anyone turning up for a train is going to find a very patchy service at best. The rush hour will be mental if everyone listens to their wishful thinking and expects business as normal.

 

[175001]

or does all your years of experience with the MCRUA make you more knowledgable then drivers and guards?

 

[northwichcat]

Question for any train crews. If members of your family want to take the train somewhere but find the only way you can get there by train is by using a DOO service would you advise them it's a DOO service and isn't all that safe? Or would you in fact think catching a DOO train is safer than travelling on the road?

 

[wingsoveryorks]

Question for any train crews. If members of your family want to take the train somewhere but find the only way you can get there is by using a DOO train would you advise them it's a DOO train and isn't that safe? Or would you in fact think catching a DOO train is safer than travelling on the road?

They already know they are not as safe. That is because I have told them of all the safety related incidents I have come across where a driver on his own would struggle to deal with.
Then there are the drunks, anti-social behaviour, robberies I have prevented, not to mention two sexual assaults. Nah, they know.

 

[dtaylor84]

They already know they are not as safe.

As travelling on the road?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Then there are the drunks, anti-social behaviour, robberies I have prevented, not to mention two sexual assaults. Nah, they know.

What is the standing instruction to guards on their own when confronted with any of those first three situations that you have named above?

 

[wingsoveryorks]

What is the standing instruction to guards on their own when confronted with any of those first three situations that you have named above?

What is the standing instruction to yourself if you saw any of this in the street? I mean, lets be honest, they are never going to say "Get stuck in" are they. Can you imagine the fuss if a guard (God forbid) belted somebody robbing another passenger. Got to think of the corporate image and worry about 'claims are us'

You want good customer service. When did good customer service stop being protecting the good customer? Many of us will as far as we legally and physically can. We are always going to be public enemy number one whilst we are fighting for our jobs, but I just don't understand the reasoning that we don't care.
I have seen the teenage girl sobbing her heart out because she had been indecently assaulted and I have stopped the guy walking off into the night. But hey, in the world of Tory cuts and wanting to axe my role, I must be public enemy number one for defending myself.
Most of you do not know our jobs, you only think you do. But that is because you only see us with a 'Starmobile' checking tickets. Spend a month shadowing us, I guarantee you will see something very different.

 

[ainsworth74]

This thread is for discussing the situation on Northern in relation to DOO. It is NOT for discussing the merits or otherwise of DOO on SWT or any other operator. I've deleted a few posts that were off-topic. Please ensure that any further posts remain on topic and relevant to the current Northern dispute. Any further off-topic posts are liable for deletion.

 

[Moonshot]

has anyone got a link to a totally independent report sponsored by the RMT which researches the effect of 50% DOO on the Northern Network ?

 

[Carlisle]

We are always going to be public enemy number one whilst we are fighting for our jobs, .

Are any of you likely to be given a notice of redundancy or a wage reduction in the near future ,if the answer is no then it's more realistic to state that the staff and RMT are mostly fighting change rather than actually for your jobs

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What is the standing instruction to yourself if you saw any of this in the street? I mean, lets be honest, they are never going to say "Get stuck in" are they. Can you imagine the fuss if a guard (God forbid) belted somebody robbing another passenger. Got to think of the corporate image and worry about 'claims are us'

Most of you do not know our jobs, you only think you do. But that is because you only see us with a 'Starmobile' checking tickets. Spend a month shadowing us, I guarantee you will see something very different.

It was the very reason why I do NOT know what your job fully entails that in response to the earlier posting of yours that said how you had dealt with incidents concerning three passenger types, that I asked what were the standing instructions to guards in those situations.

You then ask in reply what my response would be if I saw any of this in the street, which is NOT answering the question that I asked. My answer is that I do not have any of the powers invested in me that the police have in those situations nor do I have any special constable training to deal with such a situation. At the age of 71 and having suffered a stroke in 2012, do you honestly expect that I would do anything else?

You then compound matters in the very same posting response to me by stating "Most of you do not know our jobs, you only think you do". Pray tell where I have ever made such a claim in any of my postings.

 

[Robertj21a]

has anyone got a link to a totally independent report sponsored by the RMT which researches the effect of 50% DOO on the Northern Network ?

.......'a totally independent report sponsored by the RMT.......'

Did you really mean to write that ?

:roll:

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

.......'a totally independent report sponsored by the RMT.......'

Did you really mean to write that ?

:roll:

Fair comment. But it would be as "independent" as anything put out by the RSSB on this matter...

 

[HH]

Fair comment. But it would be as "independent" as anything put out by the RSSB on this matter...

It might be, it might not. Based on previous reports commissioned by Unions, I know which of the two I'd pick...

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

It might be, it might not. Based on previous reports commissioned by Unions, I know which of the two I'd pick...

And that's called confirmation bias, hence the need for something that's genuinely independent (which we won't get).

 

[HH]

And that's called confirmation bias, hence the need for something that's genuinely independent (which we won't get).

Indeed. We also ought to have is a truly independent RSSB. And that ain't gonna happen either.

 

[Moonshot]

Indeed. We also ought to have is a truly independent RSSB. And that ain't gonna happen either.

Seen as though the RSSB are also responsible for the Rule Book, how different would that be if none of the top dogs were actually involved in the Rail Industry. I do note that the non execs of the RSSB are independent which is common practise elsewhere anyway.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Seen as though the RSSB are also responsible for the Rule Book, how different would that be if none of the top dogs were actually involved in the Rail Industry. I do note that the non execs of the RSSB are independent which is common practise elsewhere anyway.

An awful lot of the Rule Book has been developed as a reaction to all kinds of incidents going back many years. Quality investigation of such incidents does not necessarily have to be done by current railway employees: remember that before HMRI was put under the H&SE it was generally led by ex-military personnel with experience either in the Transport Corps or the Royal Engineers. To put it another way it is perfectly possible to have safety oversight carried out without direct railway industry involvement: the trick is to recruit people with appropriate experience and have suitable channels of communication between the various parties. The current scope for potential conflict of interest is a legacy of the hurried privatisation process: when the TOCs realised they would have to pay for the RSSB they insisted on representation. This should not have been allowed.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

Are any of you likely to be given a notice of redundancy or a wage reduction in the near future ,if the answer is no then it's more realistic to state that the staff and RMT are mostly fighting change rather than actually for your jobs

I'm fighting the government old love, and I'm relishing it. I hope they call a strike on the day the Settle-Carlisle reopens.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

It was the very reason why I do NOT know what your job fully entails that in response to the earlier posting of yours that said how you had dealt with incidents concerning three passenger types, that I asked what were the standing instructions to guards in those situations.

You then ask in reply what my response would be if I saw any of this in the street, which is NOT answering the question that I asked. My answer is that I do not have any of the powers invested in me that the police have in those situations nor do I have any special constable training to deal with such a situation. At the age of 71 and having suffered a stroke in 2012, do you honestly expect that I would do anything else?

You then compound matters in the very same posting response to me by stating "Most of you do not know our jobs, you only think you do". Pray tell where I have ever made such a claim in any of my postings.

If you don't know my job, don't comment on it.

 

[Moonshot]

So Monday 13th March is the first one day strike. Which is actually a rest day for me somewhat luckily.

 

[northwichcat]

So Monday 13th March is the first one day strike. Which is actually a rest day for me somewhat luckily.

No guarantee it will happen on that date. Quite often strikes are announced and then called off if the union thinks talks are going in the right direction.