Question regarding turning Class 68 engines off

[Roast Veg]

is there any way that the existing Silver carriages, on which much money has been spent, could be incorporated into a DMU set up as an unpowered car?

Short answer is no, they are not compatible in coupling design, multiple working system, braking system, and gangway size or shape.

 

[najaB]

I understand now except to ask, does each set have to have a driving cab at each end, or can it arrive at Marylebone with one at the front only, and another one get coupled to the other end for departure?

Each set has a driving cab at either end.

And, to bring us back to residents issues (and sorry if this has already been answered, but my head is reeling),is there any way that the existing Silver carriages, on which much money has been spent, could be incorporated into a DMU set up as an unpowered car?

There is no practical way this could be achieved. As Roast Veg says, they are physically incompatible and even if they could be joined there wouldn't be enough engine power for it to run even close to normal speed.

 

[t_star2001uk]

Sorry. Letters crossed.

I understand now except to ask, does each set have to have a driving cab at each end, or can it arrive at Marylebone with one at the front only, and another one get coupled to the other end for departure?

And, to bring us back to residents issues (and sorry if this has already been answered, but my head is reeling),is there any way that the existing Silver carriages, on which much money has been spent, could be incorporated into a DMU set up as an unpowered car?

In answer to your first point: No, 165's are relatively easy to uncouple between cars within a unit as ot is a BSI coupler and a set of jumper cables. 168s and 172s are a little more difficult as they have a bar coupler between cars and the gangways are of a different construction as well.

As for your second part: the silver coaches cannot be attached to the multiple unit fleet. The couplers are different and they need to have an ETS supply for the auxiliary systems.

 

[putabidin]

Each set has a driving cab at either end.

And, presumably, if you couple two sets of three together you will have a car with a driving cab in the middle, too.

 

[t_star2001uk]

And, presumably, if you couple two sets of three together you will have a car with a driving cab in the middle, too.

2 sets of three will give 2 cabs in the middle..

 

[putabidin]

2 sets of three will give 2 cabs in the middle..

Ah. Stupid me !!

 

[TheEdge]

Ah. Stupid me !!

I think its unhelpful where people have mentioned about splitting DMUs and running vehicles alone. In so far as you are concerned DMUs are permanently coupled and their formation can't be changed.

 

[TimboM]

Maybe jumping a bit ahead, but @putabidin are you thinking about whether the 68s + coaches could be replaced by DMUs (which don't idle for anything near as long)?

I've a feeling it's already been covered to an extent, but if this is where your thinking is going, there's a possibility in terms of long-term replacement with new stock somewhere down the line, but in the short term I very much doubt it's something Chiltern would (or even could do).

There's many other considerations/obstacles - including (but not limited to):
- the DMUs they have are for local/sub-urban services and not particularly conducive to long-distance intercity services.
- Do they have enough of them given 68 services would need to be replaced by 2x DMU sets in most instances? (short answer - no)
- Similar to the above; enough drivers/staff training on the different types of trains?
- What do they do with the 68s and coaches/DVTs which they'll be paying DRS/leasing companies a fair whack to have and no doubt tied into fixed-term contracts?

 

[putabidin]

I think its unhelpful where people have mentioned about splitting DMUs and running vehicles alone. In so far as you are concerned DMUs are permanently coupled and their formation can't be changed.

What's that all about? I see it every day. Coupling and uncoupling DMUs at Marylebone is an everyday thing.

Just didn't know how it all worked. Now I do.

Have I missed your joke or something?

 

[najaB]

What's that all about? I see it every day. Coupling and uncoupling DMUs at Marylebone is an everyday thing.

You see complete sets coupling and uncoupling - so three carriages connect to another three to make a six car vehicle.

What TheEdge is talking about is when the individual carriages within a set are coupled and uncoupled. So a three car set is broken down into its three constituent vehicles. This won't happen at the station, only at a maintenance depot.

I think TheEdge was concerned that you might confuse the two.

 

[putabidin]

You see complete sets coupling and uncoupling - so three carriages connect to another three to make a six car vehicle.
I think TheEdge was concerned that you might confuse the two.

Now I follow. Thanks, both of you.

 

[putabidin]

Maybe jumping a bit ahead, but @putabidin are you thinking about whether the 68s + coaches could be replaced by DMUs (which don't idle for anything near as long)?

But Chiltern do run non-loco services to Birmingham I think.
I think they are 168s. Are these not DMUs? Could not they be coupled together?

 

[TheEdge]

But Chiltern do run non-loco services to Birmingham I think.
I think they are 168s. Are these not DMUs? Could not they be coupled together?

They do and they are. But Chiltern market their loco services as more premium, which hauled stock often is. DMUs tend to be nosier inside and a bit more cramped due to all the internal equipment.

Also DMUs are somewhat more suited to more stops and shorter work than loco hauled. Thus it makes more sense, both operationally and for passengers, to use locos and stock on longer services freeing up DMUs for more suitable work.

 

[TimboM]

They do and they are. But Chiltern market their loco services as more premium, which hauled stock often is. DMUs tend to be nosier inside and a bit more cramped due to all the internal equipment.

Also DMUs are somewhat more suited to more stops and shorter work than loco hauled. Thus it makes more sense, both operationally and for passengers, to use locos and stock on longer services freeing up DMUs for more suitable work.

Indeed. And as per my original point where - in the short/medium term at least - do all the DMUs come from to replace some/all of the 68-hauled services? (Chiltern won't have loads, if any 'spare'); ...and what do you then do with the 68s/coaches?

Unfortunately for the residents I think this is a non-starter too.

 

[KingDaveRa]

Given what others have mentioned previously about DMUs over a certain size being expensive to run compared to loco-hauled, I guess the only logical replacement would be something more like the Voyagers, or a more recent equivalent of a similar capacity. Is there such a thing?

This is purely hypothetical though, Chiltern have likely got quite a few years worth of lease still to run on the 68s so I fear they will be making a nuisance of themselves for a while to come.

 

[TimboM]

This is purely hypothetical though, Chiltern have likely got quite a few years worth of lease still to run on the 68s so I fear they will be making a nuisance of themselves for a while to come.

Yes - a spot of Googling suggests Chiltern have six 68s on a £15m lease from DRS until 2021. Would seem they're pretty happy with them too - certainly better than the 67s they replaced and not (m)any other mixed-use modern 100 mph diesel locos out there.

Adding this to the money invested in the coaches to improve the passenger experience (their selling point vs competitor Virgin) I cannot see the 68s (and their noise/vibrations) disappearing from that route anytime soon.

 

[Dent]

I guess the only logical replacement would be something more like the Voyagers, or a more recent equivalent of a similar capacity. Is there such a thing?

Yes, the Class 800 series.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Given what others have mentioned previously about DMUs over a certain size being expensive to run compared to loco-hauled, I guess the only logical replacement would be something more like the Voyagers, or a more recent equivalent of a similar capacity. Is there such a thing?

The Voyagers are not particularly quiet either.

My guess is that, by the time replacement is possible, it could be some form of NEW express Diesel Multiple Unit. But by then electrification might be on the cards anyway.

As regards current DMUs there are very few in the UK that have trailer (non-engined) coaches in. So if the Silver sets were formed into DMUs you would need some pretty powerful engines under the few new coaches.

As for emissions. In terms of NOX I would suggest that a 6-car Chiltern train (formed of two 3-car DMUs) produces more than the 68 with its six coaches. Some of what you see above a 68 might merely be the heat haze from the exhausts btw. A lot of the pollution you can see and hear from any diesel engine (train or road) is less harmful than the invisible stuff.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

What the devil are you on about? You can't do a "partial shutdown" of an engine.

yes you can and GM have marketed cars in the US that do that

 

[GW43125]

The Voyagers are not particularly quiet either.

My guess is that, by the time replacement is possible, it could be some form of NEW express Diesel Multiple Unit. But by then electrification might be on the cards anyway.

As regards current DMUs there are very few in the UK that have trailer (non-engined) coaches in. So if the Silver sets were formed into DMUs you would need some pretty powerful engines under the few new coaches.

As for emissions. In terms of NOX I would suggest that a 6-car Chiltern train (formed of two 3-car DMUs) produces more than the 68 with its six coaches. Some of what you see above a 68 might merely be the heat haze from the exhausts btw. A lot of the pollution you can see and hear from any diesel engine (train or road) is less harmful than the invisible stuff.

The main thing with the carriages is they are braked with the standard two-pipe air system whereas the units use the train wire system.

 

[putabidin]

The Class 168s can easily be coupled together to form longer trains. That is not the issue which was when Chiltern wanted to buy more DMUs with a 100mph top speed the manufacturer had stopped making them. Chiltern then looked for an alternative and decided on rebuilding some old Mark 3 carriages and hauling them with the Class 67 locomotives. This background was explained in a speech by Adrian Shooter, the ex-Chairman of Chiltern Trains, to a meeting of the IET just before Christmas 2016. The video is available on Youtube.

Apologies. I never acknowledged your very informative response. I can't find the you tube video to which you refer. Do you have a link, please?

 

[coppercapped]

Apologies. I never acknowledged your very informative response. I can't find the you tube video to which you refer. Do you have a link, please?

I had to do a bit of digging myself! Sorry, it wasn't on Youtube but it's here!