Wrexham redouble

[The Informer]

Like Phil from Mon I will believe it when I see it. 14 kms of new rail, some crossings and signalling, any of the preservation societies could have done it in that time and still had change. ( I do admit they would have to bring in contractors for some parts)!
March 2014 to March 2017 to finish the job, it's about the norm for Network rail, look at the state of their other projects. I will admit they are very good at repairs e.g. Dawlish and Dover, but near useless at bringing projects in on time and within budget. While I'm on the rant, please don't let them run the Valleys upgrade, get something like the people who have built Crossrail to do it.
The Welsh government have, as I've said before, been taken ride with this project. I can remember when many on this thread were excited at the news, little did we think it be so long in fulfilment.

You do realise it wasn't NR who delivered the project but a joint venture between two contractors? Yes NR hold the purse strings but to say preservation societies could have delivered it within the same timescales and had change afterwards clearly shows your level of insider knowledge on such projects...

 

[fflint]

You do realise it wasn't NR who delivered the project but a joint venture between two contractors? Yes NR hold the purse strings but to say preservation societies could have delivered it within the same timescales and had change afterwards clearly shows your level of insider knowledge on such projects...

My level of understanding I would suggest is some what higher than yours. Can I ask you whom are the parties to the contract and it's delivery?

I think you will find it's Network Rail and W.A.G., by the way W.A.G. hold the purse strings - they pay Network Rail to Manage the project and deliver it, Network Rail pay the contractors!
Network Rail use contractors on most of their schemes which they manage e.g. the Great Western electrification, where surprisingly they have made a hash of it! I don't think anyone is blaming the non delivery on the contractors but rightly are blaming N.R for their poor planning and project management.

As an aside I think it's sad that, because of poor management, N.R. are loosing the confidence of politicians and the public, giving government an excuse to backtrack on many of the promised electrification projects. Sadly N.R. now are like a builder that gives you a quote for work on your house and then comes back after starting and asks for more money to finish it.

 

[QueensCurve]

Like Phil from Mon I will believe it when I see it. 14 kms of new rail, some crossings and signalling, any of the preservation societies could have done it in that time and still had change. ( I do admit they would have to bring in contractors for some parts)!is thread were excited at the news, little did we think it be so long in fulfilment.

Yes, they could, for a track adequate for a heritage railway with a speed limit of 20mph.

 

[Railman]

The reason Dawlish and Dover are a success is Network rail give up and let proper engineers take over and do what is needed. The Settle & Carlisle repairs will probably go well too, for the same reason.

 

[paul1609]

Yes, the could, for a track adequate for a heritage railway with a speed limit of 20mph.

Most heritage railway rebuilds in terms of the track and formation have been done to a higher standard than 25 mph, mainly because it minimises the maintenance costs. For instance on my line the K&ESR most of Northiam to Bodiam was rebuilt using brand new flat bottom rail on secondhand concrete sleepers. we don't operate any faster because there is no business case to do so when you take all the safety costs in to consideration and by and large the public don't want to rush from one end of the line to the other not because the track is inadequate to do so. Id say that there are quite large parts of the secondary national network which are on a par with some heritage lines.

 

[Sox]

Maybe a case of better to let an A team loose on a B project than a B team loose on an A project?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Maybe a case of better to let an A team loose on a B project than a B team loose on an A project?

I don't think Wrexham-Chester redoubling has ever been seen as an A project within Network Rail. That's one of the problems.
Things may be changing though, with more powers in Cardiff.
At least we now have some momentum behind the Halton Curve (the projects are now linked).

 

[Railman]

All the talk is that the Halton chord service will be run by the W&B franchise, will the latest GWR electrification fiasco, affect the availability of DMUs to run the service.
And as has been touched on this forum before, I think any further ideas of North Wales electrification might need to be put back in the bottom drawer.

 

[Rhydgaled]

All the talk is that the Halton chord service will be run by the W&B franchise, will the latest GWR electrification fiasco, affect the availability of DMUs to run the service.

GWML fiasco or no GWML fiasco, availablity of DMUs for a Halton curve service in December 2018 (as I believe is the claimed date) is going to be a problem. Well; it might not be a problem if you use non-accessible units, but that only delays the problem by a year. Without ePacer, D-Train, 319 Flex or an accessibility solution for 153s there are not enough DMUs to replace all the 153s, Pacers and 121s still in use across the network. On top of stock for a Halton curve service just over 1 month into the new franchise, in May 2019 whatever follows ATW will also need to find additional stock to cover for the loss of GWR summer Saturday services to Tenby and then in December 2019 will need to have resolved the TSI-PRM issue. Thus the first three main timetable changes in the new franchise will all need serious rolling stock interventions.

On the topic of the Wrexham-Chester line, I am wondering what sort of service can be provided once the redoubling is finally completed. Is there some linespeed upgrade work going on between Wrexham and Chester as well, and if so what are the new Sectional Running Times (particularly over the remaining single line section) expected to be?

I ask because what appears to be the obvious timetable enhancement, increasing the frequency between Cardiff and Shrewsbury to about every half hour (1tph to Manchester and 1tph to Chester, potentially continuing to Liverpool over the Halton curve) doesn't work when I actually lay it out as a timetable. The reason it doesn't work is that the paths ATW use into MAN (from south Wales) and Birmingham are locked in stone, I assume. Thus, the northbound train from Cardiff to Chester/Liverpool would be running just four minutes behind the Birmingham to Wrexham/Chester service (in the hours that runs). Thus, I've played with the idea of routing the Cardiff-Chester service via Crewe in alternate hours and putting on a seperate Chester-Shrewsbury shuttle, but I'm also running into issues on the single-track section (theorectically it would take a 20-minute interval service, but with the locked times of the Birmingham service (arr. Chester xx:20 depart xx:30) a 20-minute interval service doesn't work, and even 30-minute intervals don't seem possible either). Anyone know how such issues could be resolved?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I don't think there is any plan to use the new Chester-Wrexham capacity before the new franchise, except possibly to retime some existing trains.
The only line speed increase is on the new track, which is only c2.5 miles (Down line Rossett-Balderton, Up line Saltney-Balderton), from 60mph to 90mph.
This will only make a marginal difference to running times (1 minute?).
Occupancy of the single track is currently about 11 minutes for the 10 miles, which should come down to about 6 minutes with the new junction at Rossett reducing the single section to 5 miles.

I guess there is some off-peak capacity available.
It probably wouldn't be hard to extend the Crewe-Chester shuttle to Wrexham, using an additional unit, but then you have the fiddle round at Wrexham to reverse it with the restricted signalling there.
And somebody would have to pay for it.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I don't think there is any plan to use the new Chester-Wrexham capacity before the new franchise, except possibly to retime some existing trains.

It's the new franchise I'm thinking about.

The only line speed increase is on the new track, which is only c2.5 miles (Down line Rossett-Balderton, Up line Saltney-Balderton), from 60mph to 90mph.
This will only make a marginal difference to running times (1 minute?).
Occupancy of the single track is currently about 11 minutes for the 10 miles, which should come down to about 6 minutes with the new junction at Rossett reducing the single section to 5 miles.

Thanks for the reply; it sounds like the SRTs I'm playing with are close enough (1 min WRX to Wrexham North Junction, 7 from there to Rossett and 9 from there to Chester). Using the existing times of the Birmingham service, it appears a half-hourly service* would meet the oncoming trains on the remaining single line section. Is the new infrustructure in the wrong place? Or am I missing something?

* trains departing Chester at xx:30 and xx:00, and Shrewsbury at xx:24/28 and xx:58

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Using the existing times of the Birmingham service, it appears a half-hourly service* would meet the oncoming trains on the remaining single line section. Is the new infrustructure in the wrong place? Or am I missing something?
* trains departing Chester at xx:30 and xx:00, and Shrewsbury at xx:24/28 and xx:58

Ye, you're right. Won't work without changing something by about 10 minutes.
Trouble is the Birmingham-Wolverhampton path is fixed.
The speed increase Shrewsbury-Gobowen would help though (70-90 = c3 minutes), but I've no idea if that is still on.
The NR plan was supposedly to generate an extra 1tp2h though.

 

[AndrewE]

Surely the best / most immediate gain is the elimination of knock-on delays from late running services on a single line? I believe there is more than one train at the end of a line (as at Wrexham Central) trying to use that track...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Surely the best / most immediate gain is the elimination of knock-on delays from late running services on a single line? I believe there is more than one train at the end of a line (as at Wrexham Central) trying to use that track...

Only at the start/end of the day when trains are positioning for the Wrexham Central-Bidston shuttle.
They don't touch the single line otherwise.
The VT Wrexham-Chester-Euston 221 also works in/out early and late.
Plus the occasional freight (logs to Chirk, coal to Penyffordd).

 

[Railman]

Would i be wrong in thinking someone has paid a lot of money, for not very much. And then got it late?

 

[Chester1]

Would i be wrong in thinking someone has paid a lot of money, for not very much. And then got it late?

A very accurate and succinct summary! It even more frustrating when you consider that 2 miles of redoubling that was cut to save £12m, this would have provided enough capacity for 3-4tph instead of 1.5-2 for £45m+.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Would i be wrong in thinking someone has paid a lot of money, for not very much. And then got it late?

Yes. The Welsh transport budget.
The Gowerton redoubling was handled a whole lot better.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Yes. The Welsh transport budget.
The Gowerton redoubling was handled a whole lot better.

Not helped with North and South bias believes has it?

 

[Rhydgaled]

Ye, you're right. Won't work without changing something by about 10 minutes.
Trouble is the Birmingham-Wolverhampton path is fixed.
The speed increase Shrewsbury-Gobowen would help though (70-90 = c3 minutes), but I've no idea if that is still on.

Thanks for that, the 3 minute saving looks like it could make the service work on a roughly half-hourly basis (not exactly half-hourly though). The remaining problem I'm having is the headways between Wrexham and Shrewsbury for pathing Y Gerallt Gymro. Is the introduction of extra intermediate signals between Wrexham and Shrewsbury to sort this out going ahead?

 

[headshot119]

Thanks for that, the 3 minute saving looks like it could make the service work on a roughly half-hourly basis (not exactly half-hourly though). The remaining problem I'm having is the headways between Wrexham and Shrewsbury for pathing Y Gerallt Gymro. Is the introduction of extra intermediate signals between Wrexham and Shrewsbury to sort this out going ahead?

The extra intermediate signals aren't just to sort out Gerald, it's also to help let a train leave Wrexham and head towards Ruabon while a freight shunts into Kronospan.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Thanks for that, the 3 minute saving looks like it could make the service work on a roughly half-hourly basis (not exactly half-hourly though). The remaining problem I'm having is the headways between Wrexham and Shrewsbury for pathing Y Gerallt Gymro. Is the introduction of extra intermediate signals between Wrexham and Shrewsbury to sort this out going ahead?

Allegedly the bidders for the new franchise are coming up with plans its not prescriptive so Gerald could even be cancelled. It will be interesting to see what happens as the Welsh Governments misguided aspiration for an hourly Cardiff to Holyhead service will severely depress demand and revenue along the North Wales Coast, down to Shrewsbury via Wrexham and the Marches as trains will not run where the natural demand is making travel unattractive.

Will bidders play appease the Welsh Government for extra subsidy demands or look to provide what the actual demand is?

 

[craigybagel]

Allegedly the bidders for the new franchise are coming up with plans its not prescriptive so Gerald could even be cancelled. It will be interesting to see what happens as the Welsh Governments misguided aspiration for an hourly Cardiff to Holyhead service will severely depress demand and revenue along the North Wales Coast, down to Shrewsbury via Wrexham and the Marches as trains will not run where the natural demand is making travel unattractive.

Will bidders play appease the Welsh Government for extra subsidy demands or look to provide what the actual demand is?

If it's in the bid requirements they'll have no choice but to include it, otherwise they're wasting their time and money. I'd be very pleasantly surprised if sense takes hold and some sort of requirement for extra North Wales-Cardiff doesn't go in but going on previous actions I don't rate the chances of it happening very highly.

 

[kieron]

I notice that they're sending a load of Manchester-South Wales trains through Wrexham a week on Saturday (11/3), giving a roughly half hourly service to Chester with trains passing one another at Wrexham General and Saltney Junction. There aren't many freight paths at the weekend, of course.

It will be good to see how it works out.

 

[Gareth Marston]

If it's in the bid requirements they'll have no choice but to include it, otherwise they're wasting their time and money. I'd be very pleasantly surprised if sense takes hold and some sort of requirement for extra North Wales-Cardiff doesn't go in but going on previous actions I don't rate the chances of it happening very highly.

Would this be the mysterious secret squirrel bid requirements that the Welsh Government are pretending don't exist and the bidders are gagged about talking?

 

[PHILIPE]

I notice that they're sending a load of Manchester-South Wales trains through Wrexham a week on Saturday (11/3), giving a roughly half hourly service to Chester with trains passing one another at Wrexham General and Saltney Junction. There aren't many freight paths at the weekend, of course.

It will be good to see how it works out.

Nothing new. It's happened before with no problems

 

[craigybagel]

Nothing new. It's happened before with no problems

That's debatable. On at least one of these occasions they designed the timetable assuming the double track would be finished, leading to long delays at Wrexham and Saltney. Even on the other days it didn't take much to knock the whole timetable out.

Would this be the mysterious secret squirrel bid requirements that the Welsh Government are pretending don't exist and the bidders are gagged about talking?

Indeed. For now we all have our suspicions as to what may or may not be in the bid requirements but noone actually knows for certain.

 

[Sox]

Nothing new. It's happened before with no problems

When did this last happen and was it over the newly laid track/signalling?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

When did this last happen and was it over the newly laid track/signalling?

It happened when the Shrewsbury-Crewe line was closed for resignalling, at the same time as Shrewsbury-Wolves was also closed.
No Birmingham-Chesters though.
Nothing has yet run over the new track/signalling, as it's not been commissioned.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

From what I can see in the local paper, the Saltney-Rossett redoubling will be commissioned during a 7-day blockade from 25-31 March.
The 4 level crossings on the line will be closed at various times until 14 April.
This is not on NRE yet, although no trains are shown on RTT.
Some Holyhead-Birmingham/Cardiff trains, including Gerald, are diverted via Crewe, with a Wrexham-Shrewsbury shuttle.

 

[Gareth Marston]

From what I can see in the local paper, the Saltney-Rossett redoubling will be commissioned during a 7-day blockade from 25-31 March.
The 4 level crossings on the line will be closed at various times until 14 April.
This is not on NRE yet, although no trains are shown on RTT.
Some Holyhead-Birmingham/Cardiff trains, including Gerald, are diverted via Crewe, with a Wrexham-Shrewsbury shuttle.

With the North Wales coast re signalling there's a lot of disruption for N Wales in March at weekends.