What if... Deltic Derailment

[gillie]

If a Deltic with freight wagons derailed at relatively slow speed eg 20mph and slid or rolled a short distance before coming to rest on its side would the driver be liable to sustain minor injuries or worse ?

Any answers would be appreciated.

 

[Deepgreen]

What a strangely specific question! Are you building a video game or planning something more sinister?! My guess is that major injuries would be fairly likely in the turning over, but not necessarily any more likely than in other locos.

 

[trainmania100]

If it was going 20mph it probably wouldnt fall on its side unless something had forced it onto its side.
Im not an expert but 20mph is very slow. Should it come off the rails, the momentum of the wagons probably wouldnt be able to topple it either, not to mention the wheels running along the ballast slowing it down considerably more as well.
If it was on a hill and it fell down the hill from a landslide or obstruction then the damage would be considerably worse.

 

[D365]

This question makes me strangely uncomfortable

 

[najaB]

This question makes me strangely uncomfortable

There aren't many Deltics around so I'm a little less worried. Sounds like a book/film plot question to me.

 

[Clarence Yard]

There aren't many Deltics around so I'm a little less worried. Sounds like a book/film plot question to me.

A Deltic locomotive is a most inappropriate choice for a freight train. They were quite unsuitable for freight workings and had to be specially authorised (by York control) to head one. Usually they were limited stop freightliner workings in order to balance the entire fleet of 22 locos.

A 20mph derailment would probably be very unspectacular and the driver would be unhurt. Toppling a loco onto its side usually requires a bit more force.

 

[Darandio]

A Deltic locomotive is a most inappropriate choice for a freight train. They were quite unsuitable for freight workings and had to be specially authorised (by York control) to head one. Usually they were limited stop freightliner workings in order to balance the entire fleet of 22 locos.

And more recently they worked for GBRF on Alcan workings.

 

[TimboM]

I too would be interested to know the basis for the question...??!

You're best off researching "similar" incidents - one might be the Loch Treig derailment (and subsequent write-off) of GBRf 66734 + loaded freight train. Don't know its exact speed at derailment, but suspect it would've been at least 20 mph. Loco didn't topple (despite going down the loch bank). Driver walked away (thankfully) with no significant injuries.

http://www.railengineer.uk/2013/11/04/written-off/

...or the Paddington Station derailment last June. Much lighter train (2-car DMU) but left tracks at c.15-20mph, hit mast at 8 mph. Stayed upright and no major injuries to driver.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...-digest/derailment-at-paddington-16-june-2016


Also, what typically determines the impact on humans in accidents and what injuries they suffer are the deceleration forces - e.g. if the train slides for a while and comes to a more gradual halt, 'gently' tipping over in the process, injuries likely to be minor. If it hits a bridge parapet or similar at 20mph and comes to an abrupt halt, flipping over in the process, the forces exerted on the body are greater and likely to cause more injury. There's other factors linked to this to consider too (but may also be independent) - e.g. is the driver unlucky enough to strike something protruding in the cab giving a bad head injury, or lucky enough to avoid such things?

 

[najaB]

You're best off researching "similar" incidents - one might be the Loch Treig derailment (and subsequent write-off) of GBRf 66734 + loaded freight train. Don't know its exact speed at derailment...

About 30mph according to the report.

 

[TimboM]

About 30mph according to the report.

Cheers - was trying to find that info.

So... a higher speed crash than in the OP's scenario, down a fairly steep embankment, loco a write-off, but driver unharmed. Think that might be the answer then...!

 

[Ash Bridge]

I can't recall reading of an instance of a Deltic falling on its side when involved in a serious collision or derailment and there were several during their mainline service days, the nearest scenario I could think of was the DP2 incident where the locomotive was completely derailed after colliding at speed with a derailed freight train (cement tanks)? even then it remained completely upright albeit with serious damage to the bodywork.

 

[GW43125]

About 30mph according to the report.

What speed was Bulwark doing when it rolled on the approach to Paddington & how was the driver?

 

[yorkie]

What a strangely specific question! Are you building a video game...

Possibly, or perhaps writing a book may be more likely.

This site is a popular resource among people who are creating fictional content involving trains or railways. I've seen numerous threads created by authors asking for information (particularly in the History & Nostalgia section)

or planning something more sinister?!

There's no evidence for that.

 

[najaB]

There's no evidence for that.

Particularly with it being a Deltic. That would be an incredibly specific and niche act of terrorism.

 

[najaB]

Er, especially for a first post.

Not really. We often get authors/screenwriters joining to ask a plot-related question.

 

[D365]

I only wrote that because of my current user picture

 

[Marklund]

Possibly, or perhaps writing a book may be more likely.

This site is a popular resource among people who are creating fictional content involving trains or railways. I've seen numerous threads created by authors asking for information (particularly in the History & Nostalgia section)

I'd agree with that, but for the two deleted posts.

 

[Master29]

I only wrote that because of my current user picture

No offence for the "long nosed bxggers" bit. as your userpic contains that part of the deltic.

 

[D365]

No offence for the "long nosed bxggers" bit. as your userpic contains that part of the deltic.

Haha. The cabs are massive, but the engine room is very cramped.

 

[Supercoss]

Courtesy of the Railway Archive -
http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/MoT_Thirsk1967.pdf
http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/eventsummary.php?eventID=123

 

[Master29]

Haha. The cabs are massive, but the engine room is very cramped.

Having just looked at a pic of one I can imagine that. I always thought they`d be similar to 37`s and 40`s but look nicer to me.

 

[gillie]

Particularly with it being a Deltic. That would be an incredibly specific and niche act of terrorism.

Wow ! Somehow linking an old Deltic with an act of terrorism is admirably inventive !

 

[Trog]

Particularly with it being a Deltic. That would be an incredibly specific and niche act of terrorism.

Sort of thing you might expect from the Great Western Popular Front?

 

[gillie]

This question makes me strangely uncomfortable

That is ok. I did not intend to make you feel uncomfortable. I will send questions to the Rail Safety Standards Board who should have detailed knowledge of Rail Accidents.

 

[Railsigns]

I will send questions to the Rail Safety Standards Board who should have detailed knowledge of Rail Accidents.

Better still, send your questions to the Rail Accident Investigation Branch.

 

[BrunswickGreen]

If a Deltic with freight wagons derailed at relatively slow speed eg 20mph and slid or rolled a short distance before coming to rest on its side would the driver be liable to sustain minor injuries or worse ?

Any answers would be appreciated.

A somewhat ghoulish question in my opinion. Perhaps the poster should have included some context in the posting?

 

[Iskra]

Obviously, no-one can definitively answer the OP's question without actually staging the crash.

But, 'Deltic' DP2* was involved in a crash and de-railed at Thirsk at 50mph. The driver and secondman 'escaped injury,' unfortunately however there were 7 passenger deaths. See below link for more details:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirsk_rail_crash_(1967)

A picture of the accident damage sustained:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/stuart166axe/3979181647

The battered locomotive DP2 (Diesel Prototype 2) on July 31st 1967 after an accident at Thirsk in North Yorkshire. DP2 was hauling the 1A26 12:00 King's Cross to Edinburgh service when it collided with some of the 02:50 Cliffe to Uddingston cement train wagons which had derailed moments before. 7 passengers where killed.
DP2 was deemed damaged beyond repair and was cut up in 1968. DP2 wasn't really a deltic at all.. it was a testbed for the power units in the then forthcoming Class 50.

*Externally very similar to a Deltic, but mechanically different so may not techically be considered a Deltic. I'll let the forums be the judge of that one.

 

[edwin_m]

DP2 was mechanically speaking the prototype for class 50. "Deltic" gets is name from the unusual triangular engine configuration and as DP2 had a more traditional engine it wasn't a Deltic. However the bodywork was similar to Deltics, probably because that was the design the builder had most recently supplied, so if a true Deltic had been involved in the Thirsk collision the consequences would probably have been similar.

 

[randyrippley]

DP2 used a Deltic bodyshell from the Deltic production line. Something like the thirteenth or fourteenth on the line. It was numerically spare due to the reduction in number of Deltics ordered, so EE diverted it for re-use in the trial. I presume the bodyshells for the eight or nine other cancelled Deltics were never started, or if they were then rapidly scrapped.

 

[gillie]

This question makes me strangely uncomfortable

I am sorry that viewing my question made you feel strangely uncomfortable. I really am not qualified in psychology so have no idea why you should feel this way.