CrossCountry HST's & Voyagers

[copernicium112]

Voyagers stink of toilets

 

[DarloRich]

Rather than blaming those who are using the service, surely it would be better to be blaming those who designed such a rigid structure where there is no obligation, incentive, or even flexibility, to respond to increased demand, beyond that which was planned for 7, 10, or 15 years ago (whichever may apply)..
Especially when the same people, be it HM Govt, Ministers, or Civil Servants, are those which made it policy to increase the number of students attending university to the current levels, which almost inevitably is going to increase demand for long-distance, cross-country and inter-city travel....

Oh I do blame them ( see threads passim and ad nauseam) as there should be longer trains on these routes.

I honestly cannot read any more of this nonsense....

What an awful, stereotypical judgement. Very narrow-minded and ignorant to the rest of modern day society.

but it was true. The vast majority of people on the train were young, many wore branded university gear identifying them as students. Perhaps a tourist might wear an knock off Oxford University hoodie. I doubt they wear a Nottingham Trent or an Aston University one!

BTW Where are all the studes going? When I was their age and at university I was in the pub trying to pull!

As a student travelling on a pass, I guess I'm top of the slaughter list hock:

I started this thread and travel free on XC thanks to my Arriva staff pass, I must be top of his hitlist

I don't want to hurt anyone but is there not a point about maximizing available capacity and profit? How much money do XC lose on offering subsidised student travel? If all tickets sold generated a 1/3 more revenue ( that is the level those of us without a card have to pay) surely that would be a good thing.

I know they HAVE to offer the discounts but their revenue would increase without all those railcards and the pull on government finances would be reduced.

 

[DarloRich]

Voyagers stink of toilets

not all the time. The Virgin ones seem fine and the XC ones only seem bad when they have been heavily used.

 

[MonsooN]

I was on the XC service from Newcastle to Bristol on Monday and punched the air when I saw it was the HST approaching the platform.

As I've already stated, the HSTs have more room and just feel bigger and more spacious. I like modern trains and I don't mind Voyagers hen they're not busy, but they usually are busy and crowded - especially between Birmingham and York.

DarloRich, I don't buy into your opinion that it's all the fault of the students and that they shouldn't be allowed to travel because they haven't made a contribution to society. You yourself support HS2, it's an investment in the future. So are students. Many of these people you're complaining about will become high earners of the future whose taxes will fund HS2 and similar developments and pay for your pension and healthcare in your old age!

 

[Mordac]

Sundays are incredibly busy these days especially with university students

It does seem utterly absurd that what were eight coach trains are now four coach trains or rather three with the first class not really relevant to most people

Splitting and joining could work beautifully and there is ample platform space to accomodate more coaches than four!

Thankfully I rarely travel xc and actively go via london for the superior trains

Isn't a refurbished HST due out?

Splitting and joining does happen to an extent. I remember about two years ago going from Sheffield to Edinburgh on a doubled up Voyager, where the front unit stayed at Newcastle and the rear portion changed direction and continued to Edinburgh.

 

[yorksrob]

I was on the XC service from Newcastle to Bristol on Monday and punched the air when I saw it was the HST approaching the platform.

As I've already stated, the HSTs have more room and just feel bigger and more spacious. I like modern trains and I don't mind Voyagers hen they're not busy, but they usually are busy and crowded - especially between Birmingham and York.

Ah yes, that's a wonderful feeling when you're expecting a Voyager and a HST turns up

Very rare though.

 

[D60]

So.. moving on from simply blaming people, whether it be those who are using the service, or those who designed and implemented a structure and regime that produces, over time, an inadequate service unable to cope with demand... Maybe we should be working towards getting that rigid and inflexible structure and regime altered... Maybe by way of the political process... (As we head toward a post-Brexit era, no UK govt should be allowed to hide behind 'EU competition laws'... That's if they ever did do...)...

Also, the high number of students travelling are also a product of govt policy, and are supposedly an investment in the future...

Regarding fares and pricing... An increasing phenomenon of the modern age is 'discretionary pricing', where there is no longer a fixed notional single price for a product or service.. but a range of prices within that product or service, aimed at different sectors of the market for that product or service, according to what they can bear... Maybe all 'discounted' fares fall into this model...

 

[Clansman]

I don't want to hurt anyone but is there not a point about maximizing available capacity and profit? How much money do XC lose on offering subsidised student travel? If all tickets sold generated a 1/3 more revenue ( that is the level those of us without a card have to pay) surely that would be a good thing.

I know they HAVE to offer the discounts but their revenue would increase without all those railcards and the pull on government finances would be reduced.

No, worries.

I get where you're coming from with that, it really would be a good way of securing funding for the railway, although I'm not right-wing enough to eradicate them, as thousands/millions of people rely on the discounted rates to make travel affordable, whether they have mobility issues or are low-income students at School, College and Uni.

A lot of repercussions from the BR days mean many of us (including myself) reap the rewards for having the BR staff travel, which entitles the employee's family to them also. A mistake from BR in being, as some would say, "over generous" to its employees when it comes to travel benefits has potentially cost the railway a good few bob over the years. Especially up here in Scotland where a lot of us are on the BR Pass and Scotrail staff smartcards. So those who don't have the gold card and have the ones with boxes only have to fill them in whilst travelling out of Scotland, on the basis they stick to Scotrail whilst travelling in Scotland.

Move aside Great_Western

Now they've done away with the national travel benefits and restricted it to the employers TOC (and others ran by the same company), thanks to Privatisation, it'll be a good 10-20 years before no one will have them anymore, and the railway will eventually earn a bit more from fares from then on. Unless of course one company owns every franchise in which case there's a loophole

 

[yorksrob]

Actually no. I suspect the above points are nonsense, because students will just fill up the old banger instead, and will continue to favour motor transport into the future. Transport is a habit that tends to be learnt.

 

[Tempest3K]

Ah yes, that's a wonderful feeling when you're expecting a Voyager and a HST turns up

Very rare though.

Unfortunately I've had the sinking feeling where a Voyager has shown up vice HST - I actually chose to stay in Brum for an extra 2 hrs on one occasion so I could get a HST back (not always an option though)

 

[ValleyLines142]

Splitting and joining does happen to an extent. I remember about two years ago going from Sheffield to Edinburgh on a doubled up Voyager, where the front unit stayed at Newcastle and the rear portion changed direction and continued to Edinburgh.

That's usually 1S49 1125 Plymouth to Dundee.

Perhaps DarloRich could aim for this one!

But it was true. The vast majority of people on the train were young, many wore branded university gear identifying them as students. Perhaps a tourist might wear an knock off Oxford University hoodie. I doubt they wear a Nottingham Trent or an Aston University one!

BTW Where are all the studes going? When I was their age and at university I was in the pub trying to pull!

I'm not on about the damn hoodies....

At the end of the day, 'banning' students fares from XC services will not solve the Voyager's problems; you'll just have loads of complaints. I certainly would complain!

Many students rely on rail travel to get home. Car insurance these days is astronomical. Why should they get punished?

I was a student. I have a job, I pay tax. Who on earth has the cheek to tell me what trains I can travel on?!

 

[yorksrob]

Unfortunately I've had the sinking feeling where a Voyager has shown up vice HST - I actually chose to stay in Brum for an extra 2 hrs on one occasion so I could get a HST back (not always an option though)

Unfortunately so have I. I had to stand more or less all the way from Bristol to Birmingham.

 

[D60]

Actually no. I suspect the above points are nonsense, because students will just fill up the old banger instead, and will continue to favour motor transport into the future. Transport is a habit that tends to be learnt.

For many young people, students or otherwise, car ownership is increasingly unaffordable..

 

[A0]

For many young people, students or otherwise, car ownership is increasingly unaffordable..

Not true - not least because of PCP plans which manufacturers have been offering that have targeted young drivers - Peugeot and Citroen in particular.

 

[yorksrob]

For many young people, students or otherwise, car ownership is increasingly unaffordable..

That may be the case, taking into account affordable rail travel. However, removing affordable rail travel may tip the balance back in favour of motor transport for many students.

 

[yorksrob]

The only solution to this issue is to use soon to be displaced rolling stock to run a service that's fit for purpose.

 

[D60]

Not true - not least because of PCP plans which manufacturers have been offering that have targeted young drivers - Peugeot and Citroen in particular.

No idea what PCP is...
I'm referring principally to the cost of insurance, which is increasingly pricing young people off the road... And the real practical impossibility of where would you actually park the vehicle, in the inner-city locations where much student accomodation is to be found..

 

[sprinterguy]

Unfortunately I've had the sinking feeling where a Voyager has shown up vice HST - I actually chose to stay in Brum for an extra 2 hrs on one occasion so I could get a HST back (not always an option though)

Too right: There's few things that make the heart sink more as a passenger on the railways than realising that a seven carriage HST has been replaced by a four carriage Voyager on a busy peak hour service north out of Birmingham. Fortunately, being forewarned of this grievous occurrence has allowed me to catch the quieter, faster, though unfortunately still Voyager worked, service immediately in advance on previous occasions, otherwise I'd be inclined to do as you did if at all possible (which on a weekday, it generally isn't when your destination is Newcastle).

 

[DarloRich]

DarloRich, I don't buy into your opinion that it's all the fault of the students and that they shouldn't be allowed to travel because they haven't made a contribution to society.

I'm not on about the damn hoodies....

At the end of the day, 'banning' students fares from XC services will not solve the Voyager's problems; you'll just have loads of complaints. I certainly would complain!

Many students rely on rail travel to get home. Car insurance these days is astronomical. Why should they get punished?

I was a student. I have a job, I pay tax. Who on earth has the cheek to tell me what trains I can travel on?!

I am very happy for students to travel. I simply wonder aloud if offering them discounted travel is the best way to use scare capacity. If we had half empty 8/9/10 carriage trains then driving discounted travel is a sensible way to fill up that space and generate more custom.

What we have are 4/5 carriage trains that is are full the guard cant do tickets and people are so packed in they cant even sit on the floor in a vestibule.

 

[DarloRich]

No idea what PCP is...
I'm referring principally to the cost of insurance, which is increasingly pricing young people off the road... And the real practical impossibility of where would you actually park the vehicle, in the inner-city locations where much student accomodation is to be found..

PCP = Personal Contract Purchase aka a loan to help you get a car. But you won’t pay off the full value of the car and you won’t own it at the end of the deal. You either do a balloon payment at the death to buy the car, hand the car back or take a new PCP. but surely as a student you would just buy a banger form autotrader for cash financed by a genuine personal loan if so required. I just got the bus.


As for parking I would have just parked on the street outside my rented terraced house. Even my flat in Newcastle City Centre had some parking, even if none of us had cars. It got more use by the police horses on match day!

 

[D60]

PCP = Personal Contract Purchase aka a loan to help you get a car. But you won’t pay off the full value of the car and you won’t own it at the end of the deal. You either do a balloon payment at the death to buy the car, hand the car back or take a new PCP. but surely as a student you would just buy a banger form autotrader for cash financed by a genuine personal loan if so required. I just got the bus.


As for parking I would have just parked on the street outside my rented terraced house. Even my flat in Newcastle City Centre had some parking, even if none of us had cars. It got more use by the police horses on match day!

Thanks for that helpful definition of PCP

Meanwhile, here in Bristol, in 2017, as served by overcrowded XC services, there is large amounts of student accomodation in city centre high rise converted office blocks, where car ownership is not a practical option, PCP or otherwise..

 

[Mordac]

Of course you could opt for the congestion-busting, wallet friendly, easy to park motorbike.

 

[D60]

Of course you could opt for the congestion-busting, wallet friendly, easy to park motorbike.

Would still need to be parked on the road... And where conversion of these former high rise office blocks for student accomodation continues apace here in the centre of Bristol, there simply is no on-street parking available, in practical terms...
The options are :- on foot, by bus, by train, or by bicycle (very much so here in Bristol), which they then want to take onto the overcrowded trains !

 

[Mordac]

Would still need to be parked on the road... And where conversion of these former high rise office blocks for student accomodation continues apace here in the centre of Bristol, there simply is no on-street parking available, in practical terms...
The options are :- on foot, by bus, by train, or by bicycle (very much so here in Bristol), which they then want to take onto the overcrowded trains !

Here in Northampton most council parking lots offer free parking for motorcycles all day, every day. Is that not the case in Bristol?

 

[D60]

Here in Northampton most council parking lots offer free parking for motorcycles all day, every day. Is that not the case in Bristol?

Not sure what practical council provision there is for motorcycle parking in central Bristol (charges, if any, convenience, security... there is at present much local concern over motorcycle theft here in Bristol, sorry can't post links on this phone, which would, I imagine, impact on cost of insurance..)...
So, in practical terms, many students in Bristol are dependent on those modes I mentioned above...
(Not sure why on a railway forum we're discussing ways of forcing or persuading a section of the travelling public off the railway through pricing measures, and onto the roads, rather than addressing the causes of the capacity crisis on XC, and how to solve it.. but, oh well...)..

 

[AlterEgo]

Of course you could opt for the congestion-busting, wallet friendly, easy to park motorbike.

It's also very easy to end up dead on one of those! Not for me thanks!

 

[najaB]

It's also very easy to end up dead on one of those! Not for me thanks!

I think that depends very much on what bike you choose and how you ride it.

 

[ValleyLines142]

I am very happy for students to travel. I simply wonder aloud if offering them discounted travel is the best way to use scare capacity. If we had half empty 8/9/10 carriage trains then driving discounted travel is a sensible way to fill up that space and generate more custom.

What we have are 4/5 carriage trains that is are full the guard cant do tickets and people are so packed in they cant even sit on the floor in a vestibule.

Packed trains are not the fault of students though, just like it's not the fault of elderly passengers or any other members of society. That's unfortunately down to the train operator or any other organisation involved.

To be honest, students will still travel by train even if railcard discounts are removed.

 

[59CosG95]

To be honest, students will still travel by train even if railcard discounts are removed.

I can certainly vouch for that!

 

[spookywestie]

This 1st post in this thread gave me a laugh!