The Planner
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GRIP 1-4 on a project that large in 2 years with all the stuff like funding, TWAO and public inquiries that go with it? April 1st is a while yet....
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Carmarthen to Aberystwyth Reopening?
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Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
I can see the first three of these being rather annoying, but then the long run to the South East to the final one being "the straw that broke the camel's back".
Llanigraham
On Moderation
Pigs might fly!!
The buying back of the sold-off elements of the route, and the Public Enquiry that would doubtless result with the crossing of the SSSI at Tregaron Bog would take longer than that.
Gareth Marston
Established Member
More relevant is this
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-39052153
As I've said for ages M4 Relief Road Green Light would be bad news for public transport in Wales as it would hog the funding for years. Without it maybe things can happen even in West Wales........
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-39052153
As I've said for ages M4 Relief Road Green Light would be bad news for public transport in Wales as it would hog the funding for years. Without it maybe things can happen even in West Wales........
ChiefPlanner
Established Member
I believe the Tregaron bog is home to genuine Black Adders.......
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
ChiefPlanner
Established Member
If that be the case, I can see a "cunning plan" being quickly formulated...
The river running through the town centre leads to Cors Caron, a national nature reserve of peat bog which is one of the most impressive wildlife areas in Wales; home to rare marsh grasses, black adders, buzzards and even the occasional red kite.
Presumably not the lesser spotted 175 or 158.
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Llanigraham
On Moderation
That must have been written a while ago; red kites are now common in the area. Now an occasional osprey I would agree with.
I can just see the RSPB closing the footpath on the railway so they can rebuild it.
Ah, Baldrick, these misspellings will win the case for us and they didn't even mention the black alders.
Oi! My spelling is usually grate!
Envoy
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It is the darn spell checker that keeps changing our correct wording.
Has anybody figured out how they would get such a rail line into Aberystwyth? Looking on Google Earth/Streetview, I see new houses have been built on the bed of the old railway. Perhaps they will build an expensive tunnel through the hill?
Has anybody figured out how they would get such a rail line into Aberystwyth? Looking on Google Earth/Streetview, I see new houses have been built on the bed of the old railway. Perhaps they will build an expensive tunnel through the hill?
ChiefPlanner
Established Member
That I think , was the suggestion - a mere pimple that Pendinas ....however there is a cultural legacy in Wales on tunneling and mining so why worry about trivia ? ......
A tunnel through the hill is the only way I think it could be done, BUT even if you went through that you would need a level crossing to reach the station. As Portishead and the Scottish Borders railway have found, you're not allowed to build new level crossings these days, so unless that can be overcome getting into Aberystwyth is a big problem. The only suggestion for avoiding a level crossing would seem to require much longer tunnels. I also think a lengthy tunnel would be needed near the Carmarthen end, to avoid a very slow and twisty section of the old line. Getting this line built would be a very expensive job to do properly, but if you didn't do it properly I don't think it'd be worthwhile.
By the time the railway is built, if it ever happens, only heritage trains will have dump toilets. Presumably therefore, you could have a footpath alongside the railway (as long as the formation is wide enough of course, I've only walked a small amount of the route at the Aberystwyth end so I don't know the section in question).
I've always thought the future generations act needs to put a stop to all this road building to be worth the paper it is written on; now this "Building roads ... is not the solution we should be seeking in 2017 and beyond." is music to my ears, do I dare hope? Before worrying about Carmarthen-Aberystwyth though, I think quite a bit of money needs to be allocated to the GWML between Cardiff and Bridgend / Port Talbot, to allow fast trains from Carmarthen and Milford Haven (perhaps even Aberystwyth in Network Rail's CP8) to overtake the intensive service of stopping 'Cardiff Metro' services. The best way of doing that might be a shorter, faster, new route for fast services between Cardiff and Bridgend, rather than 4-tracking the existing route.
Envoy
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I am all for rail travel but the fact is that the Newport tunnel (2 lanes each way) on the M4 creates massive traffic jams every day. This effectively cuts off the whole of south Wales from southern England. Accidents are frequent and when the motorway is blocked completely, Newport & environs become completely grid locked. Sophie Howe, the so called Future Generations Commissioner, in advocating no new M4 south of Newport, is threatening the economic viability of southern Wales.
People who use this stretch of M4 would be absolutely appalled to think that money could be spent on a new railway linking Carmarthen and Aberystwyth whilst no new black route M4 was to be built south of Newport.
I hope that the railways can get their act together and have electrification and modern trains which have the capacity to shift large numbers of people in comfort and at reasonable prices. (I would like to see an end to book ahead for specific trains at lower prices. Surely, what is needed is pricing depending on demand according to time of day. This would be a more user friendly system).
The metro is surely a load of hype about nothing? What is needed is the electrification of the valleys along with new trains. Bus routes can be linked to train schedules to provide the links needed - preferably with through pricing. (They could be doing that now, but nothing has been done).
People who use this stretch of M4 would be absolutely appalled to think that money could be spent on a new railway linking Carmarthen and Aberystwyth whilst no new black route M4 was to be built south of Newport.
I hope that the railways can get their act together and have electrification and modern trains which have the capacity to shift large numbers of people in comfort and at reasonable prices. (I would like to see an end to book ahead for specific trains at lower prices. Surely, what is needed is pricing depending on demand according to time of day. This would be a more user friendly system).
The metro is surely a load of hype about nothing? What is needed is the electrification of the valleys along with new trains. Bus routes can be linked to train schedules to provide the links needed - preferably with through pricing. (They could be doing that now, but nothing has been done).
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Gareth Marston
Established Member
A lot of respect for Ms Howe for not towing the party line from Cardiff Bay. No doubt there will be moves to replace her etc Most Public Appointments made by WG are for "friends" who usually reinforce already held views. The WG then pats itself on the head and rubs its tummy pretending its got everything right.
Mass road transit is unsustainable and there will never be the resources to build the perfect road systems pinned for plus you have to destroy things to build them. There pointless.
Gareth Marston
Established Member
Sorry there's nothing unique about the Brynglas Tunnels - its just a mirror image of many other places in the UK - a symptom of failed Transport policies pursued for the last 60 years. The argument about alternatives because of traffic accidents is nonsense - the implication being you need a duplicate M4 the length of it in case accidents happen in Bridgend or Swansea....we hear the same bleating about the A55 in North Wales.
Congestion is an inevitable consequence of mass road use which the only solution to is fewer vehicles. No one has ever built there way out of road congestion.
Envoy
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Since the 1960’s, it has been absolutely wonderful to have our motorways and other major expressways built. I can remember, as a kid, going through the old walled town of Conway, jammed with traffic and hence fumes. How much better, both for locals and those making longer distance journeys, to be able to travel at relatively high speeds on safer divided highways. Many towns and villages no longer have the noise, pollution and danger posed by through traffic. Would you honestly have preferred not to have seen the M4 built around Newport back in the mid 60’s and all the traffic crawling through the middle on the A48?
Yes, the M4 tunnel congestion is a special case. This section of motorway is especially overloaded because it carries not only traffic between south Wales and southern England, but, also that to/from the Midlands as well as some local stuff making short hops. The Government made a big mistake in widening it from 2 lanes to three and installing all the electronic ‘management’ equipment. They should have seen the way things were going back in the 1980’s and started work on a new southern route instead. (The Conservatives had this all planned out in the early 1990’s but Labour’s Rhodri Morgan came to power and cancelled it saying it was not needed)!
Now the Welsh Government are making another major mistake in permitting the building of a Park & Ride plus Business Park coming off the north side of M4 J33 (Cardiff West). This is a major strategic regional interchange that links the A4232 expressway an hence the western half of Cardiff, the Bay, Penarth & the whole of the Vale of Glam. - including Cardiff Airport - with the M4. Another entry/exit on an interchange that is not already fit for purpose is absolutely bonkers. They want Cardiff Airport to prosper. This is not the way to do it when journeys by road will face extra delays because of problems getting onto the M4.
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Gareth Marston
Established Member
In the early 1960's there were 3 million road vehicles in the UK now theirs 30 million plus which have saturated the road systems ability to cope.
Can you name a country in the world that has built more road space that has solved the fundamental Achilles heel of mass car ownership? New roads just encourage more driving and the problem rears its head elsewhere worse than before.
We have to seriously consider limiting road use for the greater good of the economy/environment/ etc
The Planner
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Limiting freedom of movement is good for the economy?
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Conversely, noting that we are discussing the ability of the general public to be able to go to and from places of employment where an intensive rail system allows this to happen without recourse to cars, we have to seriously consider limiting the effects of strike action by rail unions on the very people I have named, for the greater good of the economy, etc.
Two sides to every hypothetical coin.
I'd like to think that rather than imposing limits on road use, Gareth Marston meant to say 'encouraging modal shift' or 'providing alternative journey options' both of which I wholeheartedly support.
DynamicSpirit
Established Member
The problem with that argument is that, in just about everywhere in the country where people ask for more road capacity, people will find reasons to argue that their own locality is a special case. But you can't get away from the problem that more road capacity encourages more people to swap to using cars, and that then causes more traffic jams somewhere else.
Yes, in an ideal world, you'd sort out every single pinch-point in our transport network - of which the M4 in Newport is but one of thousands across the UK (albeit a fairly major one). The trouble is - doing so would probably eat up the entire GDP of the UK for several years. We don't live in an ideal world: Resources are limited, and we have to focus what transport investment we can afford on the things that will have the most overall benefit. Road-capacity schemes almost never measure up there, because the changes in behaviour that they cause simply results in other problems elsewhere, often cancelling out the benefits at the pinch point that you are fixing. It's always a balance between helping in one point vs causing indirect harm elsewhere. (The one time I suspect road capacity does actually do more good than harm is when you are primarily building a by-pass that allows cars and lorries to avoid town centres and urban and town centres - which I think answers your point about building motorways in the first place).
I appreciate that getting caught in the M4 congestion is frustrating - but you need to consider that if you build the relief road, and thereby speed up some car journeys, the result will be many other people changing their behaviour in response - including people currently use public transport swapping to driving. And that just results in more congestion spread out across other parts of Newport - actually slowing down the journeys of many people who currently travel in Newport but happen not to use that bit of the M4.
Surely, if you have the odd billion so spend on a transport project, then rather than spend it on something that will help some people and hurt other people, you should be spending it on something whose only significant affect will be to help people. And that almost invariably means improving public transport, or making it easier for people to walk or cycle. If that makes it easy for some people to stop using their cars for some journeys, that reduces congestion all round.
I don't know Newport to have much idea of what improving public transport there would look like in detail. But off the top of my head, the fact that that it's impossble to get from Ebbw Vale to Newport by train seems absurd. And how many other towns in the UK are there as big as Newport where it is impossible to travel by train from any residential areas of the town to the centre? Outside Newport, maybe a station at Magor would allow some people heading for places like Cardiff to avoid driving along the M4. These are the sorts of schemes that you should be directing money towards if you really want to help people in and around Newport overall (as opposed to helping a particular group of drivers at the expense of hurting lots of other people).
(I do accept though that - if you want to focus on helping the most people - a Carmarthen to Aberystwth railway is not a good choice for investment
)
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Gareth Marston
Established Member
Interestingly no one suggests the congestion charge in London has held back its economy.
Because London has a lot of journey options so the congestion charge encouraged modal shift.
Llanigraham
On Moderation
None of this has anything to do with the Aberystwyth Carmarthen line!
Hasn't there been a warning previously about taking this off-topic and into a non-railway area?
Hasn't there been a warning previously about taking this off-topic and into a non-railway area?
Gareth Marston
Established Member
after all we don't want to frighten the horses do we?
On the whole were very good at not providing alternatives far too many have to get to work by car and then this locks them into thinking car first. Think of all those business parks off motorway junctions, housing estates with no bus link etc.
I will conceed that when a mishap ocours in one of the Brynglas tunnels it seems to take longer to reopen the road than in other places. I thus think that there may be a case for making the surrounding road network better able to cope with diverted traffic off the M4 (Prof. Cole's Blue route perhaps?), but actually re-routing the M4 is overkill and, importantly:
What we need to be doing is "encouraging modal shift", and behavioural change requires careful use of 'carrots' (and sometimes 'sticks'). If it is possible to build some diversionary route capability into the road network (blue route) WITHOUT it being a 'carrot' for shift in the wrong direction then that is probably a good idea. However, I'm not sure if it is possible. Either way, the black route is a huge 'carrot' for motorists, and must be canceled for good.
Isn't that what phase 2 of the metro (phase 1 being a couple of bus stations I think) was supposed to be when first annouced? Valleys electrification plus new bus services; although of course it has now been clouded by the 'should we go for trams, EMUs or bi-modes' argument.
So; implement the metro to provide the journey options and introduce congestion charging on the M4 to encourage modal shift. And, in an effort to bring us back on-topic, also provide journey options for traffic sources that feed into the M4, eg. faster trains from Carmarthen to Cardiff with much improved buses, on a more-direct route, onto Aberystwyth. Then later, much later, when you've paid for the metro and Carmarthen-Cardiff expresses, extend the latter to Aberystwyth over a brand new railway.
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Gareth Marston
Established Member
However much we don't like it the so called M4 Relief Road is the crux of the matter for transport in Wales - it will hog the budget for over a decade crowding out anything else. Aber to Carm wil be a pipe dream if the M4 road goes ahead.
BTW I think the South Wales Metro and Improvements on the current franchise should be the top priority's for Wales Transport.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
If we look to the numbers who would benefit transportation-wise between the reopening of the Carmarthen to Aberystwyth railway line and the M4 Relief Road, which of these two schemes would carry more people?
Gareth Marston
Established Member
There's a massive opportunity cost with the M4 Relief Road - its called meaningful improvements to bring public transport up to scratch for Wales will be delayed or deferred for over a decade - that's 3 million people who wont have any choice provided as to be car dependent or live in transport poverty. There will also be massive dis-benefits to building it such creating new road congestion elsewhere, increasing emissions etc.
There will also be a massive opportunity cost with rebuilding Aber to Carm but not as big as with the M4. The dis-benefits are minimal so if in this black and white world you had to choose between the two the Aber to Carm line is a winner but of course the real world is not like that.
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