East Midlands Trains General Discussion

[tbtc]

Liverpool Lime Street

Keep

Liverpool South Parkway

Keep for a few trains a day, as the Airport link is useful for passengers, plus it's a connection to Manchester for Merseyrail passengers

Widnes

Skip - it's not a big place, and it doesn't connect with anything else. Let the half hourly Northern Rail pacer serve it instead. TPE don't think it's important enough to stop at, why should EMT?

Warrington Central

Skip - same reasons as Widnes (althought TPE *do* serve Warrington)

Manchester Oxford Road

Keep, partly as it means one common Manchester station with the Oxford Road Northern Rail service for Liverpool

Manchester Piccadilly

Keep

Stockport

Keep - great connections

Sheffield

Keep (but don't stop at Dore any more)

Dronfield

Skip (leave it for Northern)

Chesterfield

Keep a few, but there's three other trains each hour to Sheffield, could omit a few

Alfreton

Skip (same as Dronfield)

Nottingham

Keep

Radcliffe (Nottinghamshire)

Bingham

Aslockton

Bottesford

Skip these four stations - leave them to the Skegness service

Grantham

Keep (but may be better to go via Loughborough instead, to avoid conflicts o the ECML)

Peterborough

Keep

March

Skip a few (maybe the ones that stop at Chesterfield omit March, and vice versa?)

Ely

Keep for connections to Cambridge etc

Thetford

Don't know the size of the place, so can't comment

Norwich

Keep.

There you go - ten fewer stops, meaning a faster service for long distance passengers.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I do:-

17.52 Liverpool Lime St - Widnes (Shopping) Daily

19.10 Or 20.09 Widnes - Warrington Central (Work)

Northern’s Service takes along time during the week to get to Warrington

There's not much difference

NT EMT NT
Widnes 18.53 19.10 19.23
Warrington 19.03 19.18 19.24

If you want this to be an "inter city" service, then surely you support speeding it up by leaving ten minute journeys for the local services?

 

[MCR247]

How much quicker would it be missing out Sheffield?

(And no, I dont mean you should skip Sheffield!)

 

[tbtc]

How much quicker would it be missing out Sheffield?

(And no, I dont mean you should skip Sheffield!)

Looking at the Northern timetable, it's ten minutes from Dore to Sheffield, and seven minutes from Sheffield back to Dore. So, assuming that an EMT Liverpool - Norwich 158 would be a bit faster, but would need to wait at Sheffield for five minutes (with the driver changing ends, and a decent proportion of passengers getting on/ getting off), you're probably talking around fifteen to tweny minutes.

Quite a time saving, if you could maintain Sheffield's half hourly link to Manchester etc, then running the service "direct" round the curve from Grindleford to Dronfield (but not stopping at either!) would be a great time saving.

Of course, there's always the potential for a Manchester to Nottingham service via the disused Matlock line

 

[me123]

Maybe omitting Sheffield would be a possiblity. Before you all start, I would replace with an EMT/Northern connecting service to Dronfield so that Sheffield passengers can still get their train!

Or could time even be saved running via Barrow Hill?

 

[Failed Unit]

I don't know if any of you have got some old timetables but if I recall a couple of years ago (When Central were still running) it did omit Sheffield due to engineering works. Central provided some extras between Sheffield and Manchester to try and not overcrowd TPE. I think it saves about 15 minutes and the reverse if I remember correctly.

Sheffield does have a lot of people going to Liverpool and the TPE service would need to be either lengthened or increased in frequency to cover the Manchester - Sheffield traffic. There is also a good demand for direct to Peterborough traffic as it is already quicker to travel via Doncaster if you are doing Sheffield - Peterborough.

Routing via Loughborough has been done before as you said to avoid crossing the ECML twice for Southbound services. The extra revenue from Loughborough was going to compensate for the loss of passengers due to the slower journey time (according to BR). You get a conflict on the MML at Syston but I don't know if that is worse than the one at Grantham and Peterborough. It has been tried but I don't know why it failed.

The way the timetable is I don't think that not stopping at Widnes will save any time, but it may make the service more reliable as it would have more time to get between Liverpool and Warrington. Under BR it was Hunts Cross served and not Widnes for connections to Merseyrail. I can see a case of stopping to pick up every hour at Liverpool South Parkway just for connections. I think no matter what happens its path through Manchester would be very hard to alter!

I think even now however stopping to pick up at Liverpool South and Widnes in the peak would help the PIX. I remember GNER saying once about Peterborough in the peak, why have that we can fill with passengers for York and beyond stop at Peterborough and become overcrowded. You can see the point. You can never please everyone I have seen at Railfuture meetings to neighbouring small villages (Fiskerton and Rolleston) argue why they should have more trains at the expanse of the other! But an Inter-City style service should certainly only be stopping which generate inter-city style demand.

John_158 says EMT don't care about the North West, depends how you look at it. Yes they care about the long distance travellers, but no they don't care about the people that could use Northern instead for their journey when Northern operate a 1/2 hourly service. They do look at them as a problem when they cause overcrowding to the people they really want the long distance passengers.

Another example I can give 1600 Glasgow - Kings Cross no longer stops at Dunbar or Durham as people using it to get home from work were causing overcrowding. Dunbar is now served by the quiter 1705 XC service and Durham the 1810 from Newcastle. I think the majority of people are happy unless of course you were travelling from Dunbar - Durham.

 

[P156KWJ]

missing Sheffield is not a good idea. granted there is a fast service between manchester and Sheffield and Nottingham to Sheffield local, they are both a core part of the route. the simple answer is longer trains and not stopping at places like dore. unlikely it will happen though

 

[WillPS]

An express and a local service twixt Nottingham and Sheffield is pretty essential tbh - it has helped things to a large extent on this stretch of the route. This example should be followed along it, the service becoming Liverpool - Warrington* - Manchester - Sheffield - Chesterfield* - Nottingham - Grantham - Peterborough - Ely* - Thetford** - Norwich (* - occasionally skipped, ** - 2-3 trains per day).

The gaps, in an ideal world, would be made up by improved local stopping services. Of course you then need more stock across the network, and we're back to the same old problem.

 

[richa2002]

43089 is finally out with its Valenta! Here's a video of it in the snow. I recommend the HD version!
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=gr3OQLottr4

 

[John_158]

the management are doing the best they can - it's not their fault they have barely enough rolling stock. I am sick to the front teeth of you repeating this one-sided and if I'm honest, unjustified statement.

Stagecoah whanted a cheap franchise and they got one along with cheap rolling stock to go with it.

They have a chance to go for the 180s for use Between Liverpool and Nottingham and if they don't then this proves that therefore It is a Choice to send to car DMUs.

 

[MCR247]

Do you have proof to back that up?
I mean they are refurbing the 158s, 222s. & HSTs and the rest will bew done eventually! Anyway, they try as hard as they can, but people like you dont help going, they dont do this, they dont do that. I mean, do you HAVE to travel on EMT? I sure there must be fTPE, NT services. Is there any sort of Bus you could travel on? Do you only travel on EMT so you can complain about them?

 

[Failed Unit]

Stagecoah whanted a cheap franchise and they got one along with cheap rolling stock to go with it.

They have a chance to go for the 180s for use Between Liverpool and Nottingham and if they don't then this proves that therefore It is a Choice to send to car DMUs.

I prefer the 158's myself,

BUT I don't know what the bidders were really bidding on for the EMT franchise. From what I understand it was a franchise to operate a set service pattern with a fixed rolling stock base. From what I understand, which could be wrong they were told right down to the unit what they would be getting. They even thought they would be getting 3 car 158's unit DaFT told them otherwise.

They couldn't have bid for the 180's as this would have required DaFT's backing, something which wouldn't have happened considering the specification was based on CT's out of date figures which looked as if a 2 car units would have surficed.

Unfortunately EMT are stuck with what they have got, some passengers are lucky enough that they can use other operators such as Northern and Transpennie. Other people are stuck on single coach 153's with severe overcrowding until the end of the franchise as no stock even exists to do anything about it. Yes some may come available for cascade as a result of the Anglia new build, but this will not be until 2012 at the earliest!

Luckily for many operators (but not for everyone else including the people that lose thier jobs that would have used the trains) the recession is beginning to cut into demand. I have noticed most routes are a lot quiter recently as people are cutting out travel or even worse not renewing thier season tickets because they either can't afford them or have lost thier jobs. Hopefully when we start the next boom - bust cycle we plan for growth!

 

[ukrob]

Stagecoah whanted a cheap franchise and they got one along with cheap rolling stock to go with it.

They have a chance to go for the 180s for use Between Liverpool and Nottingham and if they don't then this proves that therefore It is a Choice to send to car DMUs.

Oh quit trolling.

 

[martyn29]

43089 is finally out with its Valenta! Here's a video of it in the snow. I recommend the HD version!
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=gr3OQLottr4

any idea who 43089 is with? I am looking for it and cant find it!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
do you know what service it was on?

 

[John_158]

I prefer the 158's myself,


They couldn't have bid for the 180's as this would have required DaFT's backing.

There is nothing stopping them Getting the 180s on Loan to eccorage growth and show DfT the benifts of having theese units.

 

[ukrob]

There is nothing stopping them Getting the 180s on Loan to eccorage growth and show DfT the benifts of having theese units.

You have no idea what you are talking about now.

Change the record.

 

[Pumbaa]

I prefer the 158's myself,


They couldn't have bid for the 180's as this would have required DaFT's backing.

There is nothing stopping them Getting the 180s on Loan to eccorage growth and show DfT the benifts of having theese units.

Umm yes there is... other operators have got them ringfenced!

 

[John_158]

Umm yes there is... other operators have got them ringfenced!

Northern have three that leaves 11

Hull trains now have four that leaves 7*

So 5 could go on loan to EMT for them to use 4 ie one Spare !


*As far as i know*

 

[P156KWJ]

to say something positive *hint hint* about EMT, 158785 is out and refurbished on Skegness workings today and looks smashing with snow up the front, took a picture of it but can't be bothered to upload it

Oh and John, can you please finish quotes with [/quote] tags so that they appear correctly cos I keep getting confused Ta

 

[Failed Unit]

Northern have three that leaves 11

Hull trains now have four that leaves 7*

So 5 could go on loan to EMT for them to use 4 ie one Spare !


*As far as i know*

HT I have got 5 booked, and Great Western still have 3. Don't know how advance GC are if they get the go-ahead to run the new service formally.

But the problem is, which is not insurmountable that you would need to split the route somewhere as the 180's would not be able to run through the fens. This would require DaFT approval. As DaFT are yet to even recognise that a problem exists I doubt they will agree to split the route. Northern are using 180's without having to alter any timetables (they would have been altered anyway if they had the 180's or not)

The simple way for EMT to relieve some overcrowding is unfortuately for some customers to reduce the number of stops to discourage local passengers using the service. I remember Virgin needed to do this to keep passengers travelling from Birmingham - Coventry using XC trains. On the down side someone travelling from say Preston - Coventry then had to change trains at Birmingham despite thier train stopping at Coventry anyway. I digress again and the battery is flat so it will stop now.

 

[John_158]

HT I have got 5 booked, and Great Western still have 3. Don't know how advance GC are if they get the go-ahead to run the new service formally.

But the problem is, which is not insurmountable that you would need to split the route somewhere as the 180's would not be able to run through the fens. This would require DaFT approval. As DaFT are yet to even recognise that a problem exists I doubt they will agree to split the route. Northern are using 180's without having to alter any timetables (they would have been altered anyway if they had the 180's or not)

Well as Said many time before that the Best Palce to Split the Route is at Nottingham.

But surley it is up to the TOC to say what hapens in there time table plus ammendments would only be minor in the way of about 4 mins earlier from Liverpool to Nottingham.

Plus they should not really need to gets DaFTs approval as they could aleast put them to use in peak hour eif they only got three.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

to say something positive *hint hint* about EMT, 158785 is out and refurbished on Skegness workings today and looks smashing with snow up the front, took a picture of it but can't be bothered to upload it

Go on up load it don't be shy !



I though 158s could not operate on the Skegnes Line as was under the impresion that 153s and 156s where only allowed as 158s where to Long for some of the platforms.

 

[Failed Unit]

Well as Said many time before that the Best Palce to Split the Route is at Nottingham.

But surley it is up to the TOC to say what hapens in there time table plus ammendments would only be minor in the way of about 4 mins earlier from Liverpool to Nottingham.

Plus they should not really need to gets DaFTs approval as they could aleast put them to use in peak hour eif they only got three.

as has been mentioned many times, splitting the route at Nottingham would lose many passengers who don't want to change. They use the service as it offers direct trains and don't want to run the risk of missing connections. Splitting the route always makes it worse for passenger, just like when XC split routes and all East Midlands - West Midlands services were lost. People don't trust connecting trains anymore now that services are no longer held. You also can't depart Liverpool 4 minutes earlier as it will catch up with Northern service anyway before it gets to Manchester and will need to retain the same path. It should be upto the TOC's to decide what they are doing, but unfortunately it isn't, if it was then they would probably ask ROSCO's about building more trains!

I though 158s could not operate on the Skegnes Line as was under the impresion that 153s and 156s where only allowed as 158s where to Long for some of the platforms.

Don't understand what you mean here, most stations on the Skegness line can take 3 coach trains (if not all), 158's are only 2 coach as are the 156's so there is no reason 158's shouldn't be on the route.

 

[richa2002]

any idea who 43089 is with? I am looking for it and cant find it!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
do you know what service it was on?

43089 is with East Midlands Trains with 43048 on the rear. I think it was doing a filling in move before working the 18:25 St. Pancras - Derby service.

 

[martyn29]

thanks!
43064 is stil out, with 060 at the moment

 

[richa2002]

Yeah, saw that pair today.

 

[martyn29]

I was at Leicester earlier on the way to work waiting for my train, didnt see any of the vals! seen plenty of Meridians! there has been 3 or 4 cancellations due to Meridians failing. Proves HST's are still the best!

 

[John_158]

as has been mentioned many times, splitting the route at Nottingham would lose many passengers who don't want to change. They use the service as it offers direct trains and don't want to run the risk of missing connections. Splitting the route always makes it worse for passenger, just like when XC split routes and all East Midlands - West Midlands services were lost. People don't trust connecting trains anymore now that services are no longer held. You also can't depart Liverpool 4 minutes earlier as it will catch up with Northern service anyway before it gets to Manchester and will need to retain the same path. It should be upto the TOC's to decide what they are doing, but unfortunately it isn't, if it was then they would probably ask ROSCO's about building more trains!

The Northern Service from Liverpool to Manchester Oxfrord Road Departs at 55past the hour if you mean Northerns PAcer Service to Manchester - Sheffield well that departs 5minutes later than EMTs fast Service.

Ive looked closley at it and the 4 minutes earlirer departing L-Pool would only be the first two / three in the Moring which two of leave earlier ie. 06.42 and 07.47 affter that i would have 08.46 then each affer would terminate on Arrival at Stockport or Manchester Piccadily. (Affernoon Journeys Terminate At MP Some Stockport)

Unitill Evening Departures from L-Pool at 17:46,18.46,19.46,20.46,21.46 and all Services to Operate with 180s to Nottingham inc Morning Peak.

Services will conect with Local Service using 158s from Nottingham to Norwich ie.

L-Pool-Nottingham Calss 180 operated along with Manchester & Stockport to Nottingham affternoon journeys.

DPT L-pool 06.42 in Nott 10.30am

Conection 10.45 Nott-Norwich

We should not be catering for lazy people 15mins is a good and simple conection time.

 

[P156KWJ]

to say something positive *hint hint* about EMT, 158785 is out and refurbished on Skegness workings today and looks smashing with snow up the front, took a picture of it but can't be bothered to upload it

Go on up load it don't be shy !



I though 158s could not operate on the Skegnes Line as was under the impresion that 153s and 156s where only allowed as 158s where to Long for some of the platforms.

not quite sure where that argument comes in as 158s are hardly that much longer. EMT operate 6/7 car trains in the summer in the days of CT there were some right strange consists on that line. Before now I've seen a Centro 150, MML 170 and RR 156 in combo on that route!

notice how I used [/quote] tags too

 

[Failed Unit]

We should not be catering for lazy people 15mins is a good and simple conection time.

I am glad I don't take these things personally, as I am a person that doesn't like changing trains, not because I am lazy connections can't be trusted. What if the train is 10 minutes late? 5 minutes to cross a platform with pram and suitcase is not easy and I am fairly fit! Having to wait an hour for the next service isn't fun either!

It is a fact that some people won't travel if they have to change, why bother you don't need to with your car! Even when only one direct train exists per day people will try and pick it. Again when the direct service from Cardiff to Cleethorpes existed it was the one I would pick first. The same with the London - Cleethorpes service, it had the biggest loadings because it was direct. If people didn't prefer direct services then Hull trains, Grand Central Wrexham and Shropshire would have no reason to exist.

Passengers prefer direct trains, if they hadn't made their feelings know this service would have been split already, just like XC, Lincoln - Birmingham and Skegness - Crewe before them!

 

[P156KWJ]

I am glad I don't take these things personally, as I am a person that doesn't like changing trains, not because I am lazy connections can't be trusted. What if the train is 10 minutes late? 5 minutes to cross a platform with pram and suitcase is not easy and I am fairly fit! Having to wait an hour for the next service isn't fun either!

It is a fact that some people won't travel if they have to change, why bother you don't need to with your car! Even when only one direct train exists per day people will try and pick it. Again when the direct service from Cardiff to Cleethorpes existed it was the one I would pick first. The same with the London - Cleethorpes service, it had the biggest loadings because it was direct. If people didn't prefer direct services then Hull trains, Grand Central Wrexham and Shropshire would have no reason to exist.

Passengers prefer direct trains, if they hadn't made their feelings know this service would have been split already, just like XC, Lincoln - Birmingham and Skegness - Crewe before them!

this is true, in March I want to get to Brockenhurst and I am so trying to get the 06:37 voyager (the only direct one) and don't care if it's a voyager over a HST down to London, faffing about with tubes / bus to Victoria, Southern unit to Southampton then a SWT train to Brockenhurst

 

[paul1609]

as has been mentioned many times, splitting the route at Nottingham would lose many passengers who don't want to change. They use the service as it offers direct trains and don't want to run the risk of missing connections. Splitting the route always makes it worse for passenger, just like when XC split routes and all East Midlands - West Midlands services were lost. People don't trust connecting trains anymore now that services are no longer held. You also can't depart Liverpool 4 minutes earlier as it will catch up with Northern service anyway before it gets to Manchester and will need to retain the same path. It should be upto the TOC's to decide what they are doing, but unfortunately it isn't, if it was then they would probably ask ROSCO's about building more trains!

Don't understand what you mean here, most stations on the Skegness line can take 3 coach trains (if not all), 158's are only 2 coach as are the 156's so there is no reason 158's shouldn't be on the route.

156s are only 20 metres long, 158s are 23 metres long. You wouldn't think this would make much difference but during BR days the Brighton to Cardiff service which had run for a couple of years with 155s and 156s was suddenly changed to 158s.
The first 158 reached Brighton okay but on the return made contact with the down platform at Shoreham by Sea resulting in £400,000 of damage to the platform. Emergency repairs were made over several weekends but 158s were banned for a further 6 months whilst the clearance issues were sorted!