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RMT dispute on Merseyrail

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ANorthernGuard

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The RMT keep arguing guards are needed for safety, yet there have been many incidents leaving stations which guards have been unable to prevent which a dispatcher on the platform could have prevented, but the RMT have never started a campaign to put dispatchers on all busy platforms. Safety is not the RMT's aim, it's keep their members in well paid jobs. It also doesn't help their case that they've accepted much longer DOO formations in the South than would ever be used in the North.

JCollins as usual you are talking about something you really don't know anything about. Go back to your headcounts Safety IS a large part of it as Safety and the Guards Role goes hand in hand. I'm sure you have a hanging basket that needs watering somewhere.
 
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WatcherZero

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I don't believe that is quite right. They have stated they will have 60 positions for on board members of staff that work on trains between parts of routes, targeted variably between key locations and times of day. This could mean travelling a few stops and then boarding another service at one location and time of day through to remaining on board throughout all or most of the journey at another location and time of day.

This is as opposed to revenue protection staff that roam the network doing ticket blitzes (which is Metrolink's model). While ticket checks are likely to be a duty, I think it is very clear that the emphasis is on customer contact and service and retaining a visible staff presence on the network.

Yeah but to give you a comparison of scale Metrolink employ 400 CSR staff (out of around 700 total with that rising to 1000 by 2020 under the new operator), Merseyrail are proposing to employ 60, so while indeed they could cover more ground operating alone their presence is going to be extremely limited across the shifts and more visible at events like on racedays or matches. The Manchester CSR don't just do ticket blitzes they are stationed on platforms during peak time at the major stations, during major events and service disruptions. Whenever a new line opens they always have two staff positioned on every platform 24/7 to help customers for the first two or three weeks as well.
 
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northwichcat

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JCollins as usual you are talking about something you really don't know anything about. Go back to your headcounts Safety IS a large part of it as Safety and the Guards Role goes hand in hand. I'm sure you have a hanging basket that needs watering somewhere.

Very mature. Obviously as a long time RMT member you think the correct thing to do is to insult people if they make a valid argument you don't like, just like Bob Crow and Mike Cash.

If passenger safety was the number 1 priority for the RMT then surely they would engage with passengers to find out how they think safety can be improved. Yet they've never done that because the number 1 priority for the RMT is to get members higher wages, short working hours and earlier retirement.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Yeah but to give you a comparison of scale Metrolink employ 400 CSR staff (out of around 700 total with that rising to 1000 by 2020 under the new operator), Merseyrail are proposing to employ 60.

Merseyrail don't need anywhere near as many as Metrolink as the key destination stations are all barriered - they are only having to patrol for fare dodging on the far fewer intermediate journeys.
 

northwichcat

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Yeah but to give you a comparison of scale Metrolink employ 400 CSR staff (out of around 700 total with that rising to 1000 by 2020 under the new operator), Merseyrail are proposing to employ 60.

Merseyrail serve 66 stations - the busiest of which have ticket gates.

Metrolink serve 93 stops with no working ticket gates at any station. Didn't they start to fit them at one stop on the Salford Quays line but never used them?

Metrolink also now have longer operating hours than Merseyrail following the introduction of the very early Airport services.
 

Tetchytyke

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It also doesn't help their case that they've accepted much longer DOO formations in the South than would ever be used in the North.

The RMT haven't accepted DOO anywhere, either in the north or in the south. Other unions- ASLEF, mostly- have accepted DOO elsewhere. And if the drivers accept DOO, there's bugger all the guards' union can do to stop it.

The RMT's bargaining power on this depends on how strongly ASLEF drivers feel about DOO.

McGee and Zee- who regardless of guilt or innocence will have been awaiting trial for 18 months before he's tried next month (two years after the event)- may well influence how strongly ASLEF drivers feel about DOO. A pay rise is lovely but not much use if the local CPS prosecutors reach for the Crown Court every time someone gets trapped in the doors.
 
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Tetchytyke

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Normal protection is constructive dismissal, which would work here. The reason that no-one has gone that route is you end up with no job.

And, if they offered you a reasonable alternative which you declined, the compensation would be significantly reduced, even if it was constructive dismissal.

It's why it is so important for TOCs to persist in the lie that it's a "small change about who closes the doors" and nothing more than that.
 

XDM

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JCollins as usual you are talking about something you really don't know anything about. Go back to your headcounts Safety IS a large part of it as Safety and the Guards Role goes hand in hand. I'm sure you have a hanging basket that needs watering somewhere.

This is a silly thing to say & not pleasant. I hope as a guard you are more polite to your customers than to this usually wise forum member.
You do not have to be a guard to understand & comment seriously on safety matters. Indeed some might argue it is a disadvantage. A security guard at the Bank of England would be lost on monetary policy. A railway guard would be lost in the statistical methods needed to analyse safety issues. I suspect,from his erudite postings, that JCollins is rather more expert on many matters than Anorthernguard,whose use of capitals,for example, is weird. But I stand corrected if need be.
 
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furnessvale

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Does the obvious need to be spelled out?

If only the driver is responsible for safety then the train will be less safe than if both driver and guard are responsible for safety.

People may argue that DOO trains are adequately safe and they may be correct in asserting that. But it doesn't change the fact that the train would be more safe with a guard. Safety should be progressively improved, not held back to old standards.

Driver operated doors is a separate issue. There is no reason why driver operated door should be seen as any different from the train despatcher's point of view as compared with passenger operated (slam) doors.

As to saving money, Merseyrail should be looking elsewhere. The costs of needlessly picking a fight with RMT far exceed any savings to be made as compared with adopting a cooperative union/management arrangement.

Taking that statement in isolation it is not necessarily true.

Division of responsibility for anything between two people can sometimes lead to misunderstandings as to who does what.

I am not saying that is the case with DOO, just pointing out the fallacy of that statement.
 

Bletchleyite

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People may argue that DOO trains are adequately safe and they may be correct in asserting that. But it doesn't change the fact that the train would be more safe with a guard. Safety should be progressively improved, not held back to old standards.

I disagree. Rail travel is very safe, even on DOO services. There is a very strong case to spend less on railway safety development and more on road safety development and on lowering fares to get people out of cars, as that will save far, far more lives than heavy spending on railway safety, where gains are now getting somewhat de-minimis.

Consider the example of 9/11 in the US - people were scared off flying because of the attacks, yet many, many people died in car accidents due to that switch.

As to saving money, Merseyrail should be looking elsewhere. The costs of needlessly picking a fight with RMT far exceed any savings to be made as compared with adopting a cooperative union/management arrangement.

I see issues with DOO on other lines, but I'm afraid I take the view that opposing DOO on Merseyrail (other than on the understandable principle of people wishing to keep their jobs) is Luddism. It is a self contained system operating short trains with relatively low usage (Liverpool Central gets crowded, but this can be mitigated using platform dispatchers as it is on the Tube). It is fully track-circuited/axle counter-ed. None of it runs through inaccessible places (other than the tunnels, which are properly designed for evacuation).

If DOO on Merseyrail is unsafe, we should close the Tube down. But DOO on Merseyrail is not unsafe, and Merseytravel have stated they will provide security backup at those problem times of day passengers might fear when a lone guard would hide in the back cab for their own safety anyway.

As the plans do not propose any compulsory redundancies, I can see absolutely no reason they should not go ahead whatsoever. Ensuring that this element is kept to is the only role I can see for the unions here.

I don't support DOO on Northern regional services (though I do support driver door release for the whole UK network). I don't universally support it on 12-car South East commuter services either. But Merseyrail is none of those things. Guards on Merseyrail services are not good value for money.
 

Bletchleyite

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A pay rise is lovely but not much use if the local CPS prosecutors reach for the Crown Court every time someone gets trapped in the doors.

That does need solving with some sort of case to set precedent that a member of railway staff following procedure cannot be held criminally nor civilly liable for an incident - rather, if procedure is deficient the company should be prosecuted.
 

455driver

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DOO doesn't preclude a second member of staff being on the train, such as a ticket examiner.

They have stated there will only be 60 of them, there are many more Guards at present (but I cant remember how many :oops:).
 

455driver

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Indeed not, but we're back to the same argument as at Southern. It only makes sense as a money saving exercise, and you don't save any money if you keep the same staff on the same wage. You reduce headcount, salary, or both.

Of course two guards being prosecuted for significant negligence doesn't help the RMT's position...

What did the second one do wrong?
 

455driver

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As part of the new rolling stock agreement with Merseytravel one of the conditions was no redundancies as a result of displacement. Rates of pay protected from what local media say.

200 odd Guards down to 60 onboard staff? Tricky to find 140 extra posts if rumours are true about quieter stations closing once contactless travel is rolled out properly (The next step on from Walrus in a few years).

140 brooms solves that problem doesnt it, no compulsory redundancies, the displaced staff will soon get demotivated and move on of their own volition so all is good, unless of course you are one of the ones holding the broom.
 

alastair

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The RMT haven't accepted DOO anywhere, either in the north or in the south. Other unions- ASLEF, mostly- have accepted DOO elsewhere. And if the drivers accept DOO, there's bugger all the guards' union can do to stop it.

Presumably you meant to say "extension of DOO anywhere"?

Even in the wacky world of the RMT, surely if you have been operating in a particular way for 30 plus years you can reasonably be deemed to have "accepted" it?
 

Tetchytyke

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Even in the wacky world of the RMT, surely if you have been operating in a particular way for 30 plus years you can reasonably be deemed to have "accepted" it?

The RMT primarily represent guards, ASLEF primarily the drivers. The RMT can object all they want, but if ASLEF agree- as they did in the 80s- then you get DOO.
 

muz379

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That does need solving with some sort of case to set precedent that a member of railway staff following procedure cannot be held criminally nor civilly liable for an incident - rather, if procedure is deficient the company should be prosecuted.

That sounds all good and well .

But in legal reality , even if there was precedent say for example delivered with the outcome of the currently outstanding prosecution against Martin Zee which said exactly that ,this would still not provide any safeguards against prosecution . Nor would it give any assurances that the CPS would not try in future to prosecute a member of rail staff even if they had been following correct operational procedures . Yes the precedent might be used successfully to defend that member of traincrew . But the CPS in prosecuting could try and distinguish their prosecution case from the facts of any case giving precedent . Even if a defence was successful which I would expect in Martin Zee's case , the upheaval of not knowing the outcome and possibly facing the loss of liberty is something that I would not want anybody to go through unnecessarily .

Besides which without a trial how do you actually decide for the purposes of apportioning criminal liability if someone had been following correct operational procedure ? If the CPS allege that someone has not been following the operational procedures , even if the RAIB and company say that they have there is only one way of testing the evidence that the CPS have to back up the charge they are making .

Its just impossible and a nonsense to suggest that anything can be done to protect traincrew from the legal repercussions of people being hurt as a result of them carrying out the safety critical tasks that they do . Therefore I think it is sensible for ASLEF in making these DCO/DOO agreements to ensure that their members are quite clear that this introducing a new task to their job that could lead to them being defendants in a criminal trial .

I remember in a previous employment off the railway someone saying the following to me in relation to taking a position with increased responsibility for peanuts additional pay "What would I want anything to do with that for , its just 12 new ways to loose my job and get sent to prison "
 

XDM

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If a train driver makes an honest mistake he should not be prosecuted, & if the CPS were daft enough to bring a prosecution he certainly would be found not guilty by a jury of 12 decent people. Remember the test for a finding of guilt in a criminal case is that all the 12 jury members,or if the judge agrees, 10 of them, must be certain,such that they have no doubt,that the driver intentionally shut the doors knowing a person would be trapped. The train driver's barrister simply has to suggest reasons why the driver thought it safe to shut the doors for the jurors to have a reason to acquit. And the odds are enormously in the driver's favour. It only needs 3 of the 12 jurors to think it possible he made an honest mistake for him to be acquitted. I think some anti DOO people are deliberately whipping up fears of successful prosecutions of drivers for manslaughter. Ordinary decent people do not want to convict hard working train drivers for the sake of it.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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As you have quoted my post I assume the "lesson" is directed at me. Unfortunately, as I do not have the first idea what you are talking about, the "lesson" has not taught me anything.

Come now, let us be fair. The only thing in common between your posting and my attempt at a humourously based posting response was the use of your general views as stated. Evidentially, no-one now must poke fun at the RMT and never ever try to bring the phrase "strike while the iron is hot" into railway related industrial dispute discussions, especially when a strike ballot hoves into view.

No one has ever deigned to take any of my pseudo-biblical or made-up beatitudes seriously in the past before. Yet your stated admission that you did not have the first idea of what my posting of humour was meant to convey, seems to show a serious lack of appreciation of a certain type of humour on your part. To hark back to a biblical note, it does appear that "some fell on stony ground"
 

Carlisle

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The RMT haven't accepted DOO anywhere, either in the north or in the south. .
Whilst DOO has never been welcomed with open arms by the RMT (or NUR) they did agree to all the BR (NSE) era DOO schemes with (if I remember correctly) no industrial action, ASLEF locally did oppose DOO on Euston and Waterloo suburban services in the late 80s but the RMTs major opposition to DOO only really begun in earnest around 1998 when a strike was called over SWTs DOO scheme
 
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Tetchytyke

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Remember the test for a finding of guilt in a criminal case is that all the 12 jury members,or if the judge agrees, 10 of them, must be certain,such that they have no doubt,that the driver intentionally shut the doors knowing a person would be trapped. The train driver's barrister simply has to suggest reasons why the driver thought it safe to shut the doors for the jurors to have a reason to acquit.

That would be nice, if it were true. However manslaughter doesn't need to be intentional. It merely has to be negligent. And negligence is proven based on someone else with the same job would have made the same mistake.

Making an "honest mistake" is not a defence, if that mistake falls below the standard expected of someone in that role. McGee didn't mean to kill the girl, he made an error, but he still spent three years inside.
 

muz379

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If a train driver makes an honest mistake he should not be prosecuted, & if the CPS were daft enough to bring a prosecution he certainly would be found not guilty by a jury of 12 decent people. Remember the test for a finding of guilt in a criminal case is that all the 12 jury members,or if the judge agrees, 10 of them, must be certain,such that they have no doubt,that the driver intentionally shut the doors knowing a person would be trapped. The train driver's barrister simply has to suggest reasons why the driver thought it safe to shut the doors for the jurors to have a reason to acquit. And the odds are enormously in the driver's favour. It only needs 3 of the 12 jurors to think it possible he made an honest mistake for him to be acquitted.
Im sorry but you clearly lack legal knowledge here .For starters intention is not a necessary element for many of the offences that rail staff could be charged with . Negligence is sufficient for many of the offences and many mistakes even honest ones could be sufficient breaches in the level of care required when carrying out that role to make the driver negligent in the eyes of the law .

The offence that Martin Zee has been charged with allows for someone to be guilty either by intentionally or negligently carrying out an act or omission that endangers the safety of anyone travelling on the railway . Even if a driver made a "genuine mistake" the Jury could still find guilt because genuine mistakes can still be so serious that they would make the driver negligent . Not forgetting that for Jurors this area of law and the operational procedures that they would hear about and be given direction upon would be alien to them so they would be relying a great deal on the judicial direction given to them and the representations made by counsel

Again the offence that Christopher McGee was charged with was Manslaughter by way of gross negligence . There would be no requirement in a similar case for the CPS to have to prove to the court that the closing of the doors was with the knowledge or intention that a person would be trapped or killed .Making a mistake even an honest one during the checking and closing process could be sufficient for someone to be negligent

McGee was genuinely of the belief that the girl leaning against the train would move back once the train started moving . This was later proven to be a mistaken belief when she was pulled off the platform and under the train . He did not intend at any point that she would fall or end up under the train or die . He was however found to be negligent because of his genuinely mistaken belief and his negligence was found to be so serious it ought be criminal .

As Arctic Troll has pointed out to you the standard the defendant would be judged against for negligence would be the standard of a reasonably competent train driver . And the Jury would be subjected to the evidence of an expert witness to hear what that standard is .


I think some anti DOO people are deliberately whipping up fears of successful prosecutions of drivers for manslaughter. Ordinary decent people do not want to convict hard working train drivers for the sake of it.

If you read my post again you will see that I actually address the serious probability that the Martin Zee case could result in an acquittal that could then act as a non binding precedent that other rail staff in his position could use to successfully defend a charge against them .Not to mention that at trial there is always a good chance of aquittal especially with indictable offences


However even the mere prospect of an unsuccessful prosecution and the time that this would take and the mental strain this would put on the person would cause chaos in your life , I mean if you have an outstanding charge against you I very much doubt you are going to be in the right frame of mind to be working especially not driving . Its going to effect both your professional life and personal life . look at the amount of time Martin Zee has spent in this limbo situation not knowing what is going to happen to him . That could have profound effects on someone health .

Although I am anti DOO I am coming from this from the perspective that eventually the DFT and the TOC's will get their wish .Therefore I think it is only right that Aslef members are clear about what it is they are signing upto and the union does have a duty to properly explain to its members that there is no way of stopping a prosecution and there is no way of knowing the outcome before the trial .Aslef wields no power over the decision making authority of the CPS or of the courts , neither do train operators or even the safety bodies on the railway . The CPS and the Court alone are the only people making the decisions .

The recent deal approved by the ASLEF leadership with the misleading clause around the exploration of an indemnity scheme for drivers involved in incidents shows that they clearly are not interested in making true and accurate representations on this matter to their members .



I think people such as yourself are trying to play down the risk of prosecutions arising from carrying out additional safety critical tasks in order to get drivers to just accept it ignorant of the risks and responsibility they are accepting .


Ordinary decent people do not want to convict hard working train drivers for the sake of it.
On the one hand you are suggesting that people consider train drivers to be hard working , but I am sure you are part of the anti strike brigade who are always telling us that the public perception of people on the railway is poor . Which is it please ?
 

Tetchytyke

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The offence that Martin Zee has been charged with allows for someone to be guilty either by intentionally or negligently carrying out an act or omission that endangers the safety of anyone travelling on the railway

Indeed, and the guilt is decided by way of what a "reasonable person" with the same competencies and responsibilities would have done. And despite all the efforts of caselaw to try and make this an objective test, there remains, and always will remain, a subjective element.

I'm not going to say too much as Martin Zee goes on trial next month, two years after the incident. But I would not be as optimistic as others that he will be acquitted, particularly given the age and health condition of the victim.

The recent deal approved by the ASLEF leadership with the misleading clause around the exploration of an indemnity scheme for drivers involved in incidents shows that they clearly are not interested in making true and accurate representations on this matter to their members

I would agree with that. An employer can indemnify a member of staff against civil claims, and employers usually will through professional indemnity insurance. My employer insures me against mistakes that I may make.

However you cannot be indemnified against criminal liabilities. There are certain mistakes I can make in my job that could result in me becoming personally and criminally liable for those mistakes. No liability indemnity is going to prevent that, it cannot override the law.

Similarly, most indemnity insurance allows them to not cover you if you make a mistake so serious as to be negligent. Which is normally the test for criminal liability.

I would be wary of taking the additional responsibility on. I don't think it is right to belittle what the consequences could be.
 

muz379

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I would agree with that. An employer can indemnify a member of staff against civil claims, and employers usually will through professional indemnity insurance. My employer insures me against mistakes that I may make.

However you cannot be indemnified against criminal liabilities. There are certain mistakes I can make in my job that could result in me becoming personally and criminally liable for those mistakes. No liability indemnity is going to prevent that, it cannot override the law.

Similarly, most indemnity insurance allows them to not cover you if you make a mistake so serious as to be negligent. Which is normally the test for criminal liability.

I would be wary of taking the additional responsibility on. I don't think it is right to belittle what the consequences could be.

Indeed . the only thing that the company can really offer Aslef members in line with this indemnity scheme in relation to a criminal prosecution is a guarantee to cover all legal costs to defend any criminal prosecution . But I suspect many Drivers will already have access to various types of insurance that cover personal legal costs anyway the union would probably even cover this .

And maybe a guarantee of compensation of some form if they are prosecuted and later acquitted .

But they cannot and should not be suggesting that they can protect them from prosecution , the prospect of being found guilty and the loss of liberty that goes with this . I am surprised at ASLEF leadership for pushing this as being worth any more than the paper it is written on .

Tbh I wouldn't even be surprised if the company washed their hands of anybody who was later found guilty even if their initial investigation had identified no wrongdoing .
 

daikilo

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I find the discussions above on legalities particularly interesting but I am concerned about whether we are concentrating on the right issues.

Firstly, someone in safety management is saying that having the driver close the doors is safe. In fact, that is not the issue, the issue is the driver then deciding that there is no reason not to start the train. With a guard, it will be s/he who indicates to the driver that the train is ready to start, but s/he doesn't have anything to do with actually driving the train.

Where the driver (DCO/DOO) is deciding whether the train is ready to start, s/he is provided with equipment to allow her/him to make that judgement. That equipment is verified by someone in the safety organisation as being sufficient to allow the driver to make that decision.

The reason I have described it in this way is that the actual decision to start is always with the driver, and the safety aspects leading to that decsion are always with the safety organisation. In my mind, a driver (or guard) who makes a "mistake" should in fact be covered by the safety organisation who has allowed the "mistake" to happen. There is however a tenuous distinction here between a "mistake" and a "presumption of inentionally not following the rulebook".

Finally, as far as I am aware, in legal circles "safe enough" is not a valid argument. Also arguing "it is as safe as can be" is open to question. What if there was no driver and the train drove itself; presumably the very decision that the train can start is based on some "automated" judgement. Automatic metros do exist where the decision to start is taken based on some automatic assessment.
 
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Holly

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RMT, of course, is not a Labour affiliated union.
...
For the sake of those not in the know, exactly who are the RMT affiliated to?
Jopsuk meant that RMT is not presently affiliated with the Labour Party.

RMT was affiliated with the LRC (Labour Representation Committee), however with effect from February 2017, LRC has changed the way it accepts affiliations so RMT is no longer affiliated until it re-affiliates.
Clear as mud?
See
http://l-r-c.org.uk/about/affiliates
 

AlterEgo

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Jopsuk meant that RMT is not presently affiliated with the Labour Party.

RMT was affiliated with the LRC (Labour Representation Committee), however with effect from February 2017, LRC has changed the way it accepts affiliations so RMT is no longer affiliated until it re-affiliates.
Clear as mud?
See
http://l-r-c.org.uk/about/affiliates

The RMT's political affiliation is with TUSC, a party which they co-founded.
 

muz379

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The reason I have described it in this way is that the actual decision to start is always with the driver, and the safety aspects leading to that decsion are always with the safety organisation. In my mind, a driver (or guard) who makes a "mistake" should in fact be covered by the safety organisation who has allowed the "mistake" to happen. There is however a tenuous distinction here between a "mistake" and a "presumption of intentionally not following the rulebook".
No because from the point of view of criminal law the person that actually carries out the act or the omission that leads to another person suffering harm is the person who would be liable regardless of their role and the fact that they are just following a procedure

Besides which there is no way of providing a guarantee that the CPS will not interpret events differently and try and prosecute .

Martin Zee was found to have done nothing wrong by merseyrail in carrying out the door closing procedures that would have been part of their safety case that was validated by the ORR . But the CPS have decided that he has committed an offence contrary to S34 of the offences against the person act 1861 .
 
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