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Question regarding turning Class 68 engines off

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broadgage

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17 minutes is the time allowed to mobilise a loco set in a platform and this time is actually built into the diagrams. Depot mobilisation takes a little longer due to a brake continuity test having to be carried out.

So it is probably fair to say that the time for which the engine is running in the platform wont NORMALLY exceed ABOUT 17 minutes.
That however is not a promise or contract to never exceed 17 minutes, so no hope of compensation if the O/P times it at 18 minutes.

I suspect that if a layover is expected to be 25 minutes, then the engine might well be left running for that time.
If doubts exist as to the reliability of starting, then rather than risk a cancellation due to failure to start, I would expect it to be left running for as long as needed.
 
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broadgage

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Electrification works can't happen without good justification of works, which means a significant stretch has to be covered not just London to, say, West Ruislip. The closest place where it might be justifiable looks like Oxford to me, though even the Oxford to Bicester section is now not getting wires immediately.

Yes, and remember that any electrification will be bitterly opposed by the heritage lobby, especially if in or near an old station.
Electrification at Paddington was bitterly opposed and I believe delayed by the heritage/NIMBY lobby.
 

furnessvale

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Yes, and remember that any electrification will be bitterly opposed by the heritage lobby, especially if in or near an old station.
Electrification at Paddington was bitterly opposed and I believe delayed by the heritage/NIMBY lobby.

Cue more calls for battery locos!
 

furnessvale

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This is what I am seeking to achieve for Marylebone. Does such a train exist in the UK? If it does, couldn't third rail be introduced from. say Wembley Park?
Would it, in fact, do away with the need for idling of the diesel engine in the station?

Have a look at the ALP-45DP loco in the USA.

Even with their huge loading gauge they had problems shoehorning all the gubbins into a true high powered electro-diesel loco.

Not saying it can't be done but you will need time and a big wallet!
 

455driver

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Not in his case. You are talking middle of a densly poplated area. The view is the station. I, myself, love watching the movement of the trains, passengers and staff.

An improved acoustic barrier might well absorb some of the low level vibration; a great help.

Unfortunately we are looking at blocks of flats and 4 storey estates. Short of extending the canopies to cover the whole station, which would give rise to trapping the emissions in an enclosed space, there is little we can do to help those living above the first (or maybe second) storey.

No, we have to look at solutions which are more in line with current thinking on diesel pollution. Get rid of it wherever we can.
Why cant the acoustic barrier be built to a height where everyone is protected from the noise?
 

putabidin

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Thank you all for putting me straight on all the theoretical possibilities I had in mind.

Looks as if we're lumbered with very little improvement on what we've got.

I'll let the residents know and see what they make of it all.

I suspect that those most affected will be really, really upset at the prospect of, not only retaining the status quo, but the fact that it could get worse, not better.

I suspect that letters will go to MPs, Environmental Lobbies, the Evening Standard. GLA and anyone else who they think might help, and you've made me realise that it will be to no avail.

It won't stop them trying.

Again, many thanks. It was good to have the input of people who understand the industry.
 

najaB

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Thank you all for putting me straight on all the theoretical possibilities I had in mind.
Something that I had mentioned but I think got lost in the posting - this may be a scenario for which anti-noise devices are a consideration. It is possible that NR/Chiltern/the DfT could be convinced to pay for active noise cancellation devices for your homes. They won't silence the locos entirely but may make a difference.

One thing to bear in mind is that active noise cancellation has been known to induce nausea in a small percentage of people.
 

6Gman

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They could always electrify into Marylebone and then use the class 92s.

They should be quiet enough! :D

Have you heard 92s?

Walking along the riverside in Stafford (with most of the town between us and the railway) you can identify 92s quite easily!
 

robbeech

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Have you heard 92s?

Walking along the riverside in Stafford (with most of the town between us and the railway) you can identify 92s quite easily!

It appears this forum doesn't have an automatic sarcasm flag.
 

putabidin

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Something that I had mentioned but I think got lost in the posting - this may be a scenario for which anti-noise devices are a consideration. It is possible that NR/Chiltern/the DfT could be convinced to pay for active noise cancellation devices for your homes. They won't silence the locos entirely but may make a difference.

One thing to bear in mind is that active noise cancellation has been known to induce nausea in a small percentage of people.

Thanks najaB. I missed that.
Certainly will pursue this line.
 

najaB

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robbeech

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The problem with sound waves (and it is what i deal with in my day job) is that the multiple and differing sources of them make cancellation techniques using reproduction of a phase shifted variant of the original sound pretty much impossible to achieve. Absorption is the only feasible technology we have for this when we are talking about the full frequency spectrum. Structure bound noise like the low frequencies found in these (and all) engines are where the problem becomes complex.

You can block out lots of noise using physical barriers but these as has been described already come with their own problems. but the lower frequencies (what you feel instead of hear) are more difficult to minimise. Lower frequencies do travel EASIER through the air / objects so they are harder to block out, despite this they reflect off surfaces too meaning if you are sat on your garden a few feet from your house then lower frequencies will appear louder. Turn your hifi on and listen to your favourite music in the middle of the room, now stand against the rear wall, now in the corner, each time the low frequencies appear louder. The only real way to combat this is to treat surfaces acoustically and an extra pane of glass doesn't help this (although it will help the higher frequencies and noise in general so don't give up on that quest).

As humans we often cannot tell a difference in a couple of dB especially with complex wave forms (not a single tone) so if a train is 1dB louder we likely wouldn't tell. Where we WOULD notice is the content of that noise for example, an engine could be quieter but contain more lower frequency noise and this would cause more "off site" issues through structure bound noise.

Remember also that 2 trains together doing exactly the same thing will make it louder, but not in a linear fashion. in some areas part of the noise would be quieter due to the way sound waves work, but in other parts it would be louder, so there is no one size fits all solution here either.

To drift slightly off topic but to give a relative example. In my job we frequently have to work to environmental noise limits which can often be barely achievable. Quite often on a festival site there are 1 or 2 local residents that do not like the noise from the music at a festival and it is our job to try to minimise this whilst still ensuring people who are attending the festival can hear at a respectable level. There are lots of ways of doing this, all of which are time consuming, complicated and expensive as it usually involves more equipment and more hours doing calculations. The local residents have a right to the same peace and quiet they get the rest of the year so everyone tries to work together to achieve the best results for everyone.
A more "all year round" example that relates further is that of the couple that move into a house next door to a live music venue and complain of the music they can hear and feel in their property. They do have a right to complain, and the venue should assess the situation and take any steps they can to minimise this. Sadly our legal system seems to work in such a way that many venues are forced to close because of this costing hundreds of jobs. I'd like to think the railway has a bit more clout than this but on the other hand it also has a bit more budget to try and find a solution.
 

najaB

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The problem with sound waves (and it is what i deal with in my day job) is that the multiple and differing sources of them make cancellation techniques using reproduction of a phase shifted variant of the original sound pretty much impossible to achieve. Absorption is the only feasible technology we have for this when we are talking about the full frequency spectrum. Structure bound noise like the low frequencies found in these (and all) engines are where the problem becomes complex.
That's why active noise cancellation has to be done directly at the source (there was an interesting research paper I came across from Italy where they had managed a 15dB reduction in sound levels from a diesel locomotive) or on a room by room basis at the affected residents' properties as I suggested. For specific frequency ranges (in this case the sub-100Hz rumble) it should be possible to achieve a noticeable level of noise reduction.

If we ever meet up at a forum meet we'll need to talk more about sound reinforcement - I almost went down that route as a career.
 
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robbeech

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That's why active noise cancellation has to be done directly at the source (there was an interesting research paper I came across from Italy where they had managed a 15dB reduction in sound levels from a diesel locomotive) or on a room by room basis at the affected residents' properties as I suggested. For specific frequency ranges (in this case the sub-100Hz rumble) it should be possible to achieve a noticeable level of noise reduction.

If we ever meet up at a forum meet we'll need to talk more about sound reinforcement - I almost went down that route as a career.

It's the inaccurate nature of it that makes it even more difficult. With noise from a static source, like a pumping station, or a factory that has a continuous noise which you can take steps to cancel either at source or otherwise. The loco being 20 feet one way or the other, due to it being short formed or having an extra carriage for whatever reason, or coming in on a different platform to normal can throw off and ruin any direct attempts at cancellation.

And i certainly went down that route and i'm glad i did, though i have always said when i get fed up of it i will go and work on the railway.
 

putabidin

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I'd like to think the railway has a bit more clout than this but on the other hand it also has a bit more budget to try and find a solution.
najaB and robbeach, you've gone far too technical for me.

Back to our problems, please.

What would be practical in our situation, please? Assume that funding was available. I don't think that trying to use noise cancellation product in each apartment near the station will work for us.

An extension and vast improvement in the barrier must be the first target, as the cost of that is relatively small. I have no idea who will pay for it but we shall try.

We need a proper acoustic barrier put up alongside the platforms at Marylebone. Currently we have a brick wall along part and that does little to deaden the sound of the trains.

Looking at it may be one of the Accoustibloc products.
Maybe Accoustifence
https://www.youtube.com/user/acoustiblok1

Do you have any other suggestions?
 

najaB

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An extension and vast improvement in the barrier must be the first target, as the cost of that is relatively small. I have no idea who will pay for it but we shall try.

We need a proper acoustic barrier put up alongside the platforms at Marylebone. Currently we have a brick wall along part and that does little to deaden the sound of the trains.
The problem is that low frequency sound tends to go around barriers due to diffraction effects.
 

broadgage

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Building any large wall, fence, or other acoustic barrier is most unlikely to happen.
It will be very expensive, whom is going to pay.
Obtaining planning permission seems unlikely, imagine the scale of the NIMBYfest ! it could go on for years, with objections about blocking fresh air, spoiling the view and probably upsetting some type of rare newt or bat.
 

87015

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I was wondering where a noise fence would be proposed. Going along the fairly standard foreign lines with these you'd be looking at well above ground floor flat window level.

They seem to be using platform 6 for 68s this evening, perhaps they've quietly seen this thread!
 

putabidin

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Building any large wall, fence, or other acoustic barrier is most unlikely to happen.
It will be very expensive, whom is going to pay.
Obtaining planning permission seems unlikely, imagine the scale of the NIMBYfest ! it could go on for years, with objections about blocking fresh air, spoiling the view and probably upsetting some type of rare newt or bat.

You obviously don't know the layout of Marylebone.
I very much doubt that there will be any objections. There is already a brick wall and there is no view to spoil. As for blocking fresh air, there isn't any.

I think it is quite likely to happen.
 

TheEdge

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You obviously don't know the layout of Marylebone.
I very much doubt that there will be any objections. There is already a brick wall and there is no view to spoil. As for blocking fresh air, there isn't any.

I think it is quite likely to happen.

A quick Google also reveals Marylebone is Grade II listed which means the biggest official NIMBY organisation will get involved, English Heritage.

Doomed! :lol:
 
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I was wondering where a noise fence would be proposed. Going along the fairly standard foreign lines with these you'd be looking at well above ground floor flat window level.

They seem to be using platform 6 for 68s this evening, perhaps they've quietly seen this thread!

Disruption due to a signalling failure at Banbury this afternoon meant normal platform workings at Marylebone went out the window! Can't see them moving the Silver sets from 1-3 to 5-6 anytime soon.

Unfortunately I don't think much can be done about this as nobody will be prepared to pay for it and like others have said there will be opposition to any changes. I do wish you luck though!
 

putabidin

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For the record, in case it's not clear.
The local residents have an ongoing and almost solely amicable relationship with Chiltern who, genuinely, have made a great effort to do their best to cut down idling times and listen to the other problems which the residents have and, wherever operationally possible, tried to address them.
The purpose of my thread was to advance the knowledge bank of the residents so that we don't set ourselves aims which are unrealistic.
If we can find a target or two which can be achieved, then that will make the exercise worthwhile.
Thank you all.
 

putabidin

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A quick Google also reveals Marylebone is Grade II listed which means the biggest official NIMBY organisation will get involved, English Heritage.

Doomed! :lol:

That's the station, not the platforms. It's a lovely old building. No one wishes to change that.
 

Cowley

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I must say I do sympathise with you and your neighbours Putabidin, it's been interesting reading the thread and I've learnt quite a lot from it.
 
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