CrossCountry HST's & Voyagers

[SpacePhoenix]

Do the XC HSTs have a bog at each end of every coach?

 

[najaB]

Do the XC HSTs have a bog at each end of every coach?

It appears not: HST seating plan.

 

[221129]

Do the XC HSTs have a bog at each end of every coach?

No they don't.

 

[dk1]

No buffet on an XC HST...

Just what I was thinking. It's the same trolley service which I must admit is pretty good whenever I use XC.

 

[dk1]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this.

Huge windows on a Voyager. I do think some people struggle between Pendolino/Voyager for some odd reason when arguing against them.

 

[221129]

Just what I was thinking. It's the same trolley service which I must admit is pretty good whenever I use XC.

It's a PITA on the HSTs, much prefer the 2 ends on a Voyager. Yes there is more room in the Galley on an HST but everything you need is a lot closer in the Galley on a Voyager.

 

[Clansman]

Are people looking at this from a nostalgic point of view or a view from experience?

I'm not saying the Voyagers are better than the HSTs, but if there are a lot of railway nostalgic folk on here then the Voyagers were doomed from the start of this thread

 

[cjmillsnun]

I'm no fan of Voyagers however I have to say for the use they get, they are incredibly reliable.

However my bad points are similar to everyone else's.

Vibration and noise.
Far too short.
Bad use of interior space (every toilet is accessible and the shop area was always an inefficient use of space even when in use on XC services). There is potentially room for a good few more seats
Smells. Improved now, but the Voyager sewage smell is still a problem.
And I'll add one other. Restrictions over coastal areas (ie Dawlish) in poor weather - thus causing capacity problems for other stock in that area.

 

[shaun]

HSTs are better trains...

More spacious saloons
Wider seat pitch
More legroom
More carriages
Quieter
Don't have vibrating panels
Don't smell of sewage

To be fair the 180 has most of these advantages over a Voyager too, so its really down to Voyagers being poorly designed rather than being multiple units(Personally I'd rather travel on a 180 than say, a MK2 loco-hauled service). But I do believe HSTs are still the benchmark for UK Intercity trains and nothing so far has come close to beating them. The 80x or CAFs may prove me wrong yet...

 

[221129]

HSTs are better trains...

More spacious saloons
Wider seat pitch
More legroom
More carriages
Quieter
Don't have vibrating panels
Don't smell of sewage

You can add the following to your list...

Less reliable
More likely to cause delay
Less user friendly

 

[Pete_uk]

How hard is it to provide a air ventilation system where fresh air comes in a vent and out another to remove the swewer smells? Heat hit a bit as it enters if needed.

 

[47271]

I avoid Voyagers and I avoid Cross Country, but I've never been on one of their HSTs so thankfully the distinction is academic for me. [emoji38]

 

[XCTurbostar]

I avoid Voyagers and I avoid Cross Country, but I've never been on one of their HSTs so thankfully the distinction is academic for me. [emoji38]

I've been on one of the XC HSTs and they are as I expected. Cheaply refurbished although at least the interior isnt still Virgin blue and red like the Voyagers!

I only travel on XC with HSTs. For me its a must on the routes they travel on.

Thanks,

 

[kevjs]

How hard is it to provide a air ventilation system where fresh air comes in a vent and out another to remove the swewer smells? Heat hit a bit as it enters if needed.

Why is it the EMT Meridians don't seem to suffer from the smells as much as the VWC/XC Voygars? Are EMT just better at keeping them cleaned/emptied or is there something bigger at play

Wider seat pitch

Doesn't mean too much when it's all taken up with worn out padding - as a lanky 1.94m I tend to find the Voygers/Merdians have more space than the HSTs - certainly easier to get in and out off - There's no room to stretch out of on either and I can get the tables down on the Voygers/Merdians unlike the HSTs.

And at least the XC Voygers, until XC's Turbostars, don't appear to have a rodent concert going on constantly - they certainly don't seem to squeek all the time!

 

[najaB]

Why is it the EMT Meridians don't seem to suffer from the smells as much as the VWC/XC Voygars? Are EMT just better at keeping them cleaned/emptied or is there something bigger at play

I believe that, being a later build, they applied lessons learned when designing the Meridians.

 

[ValleyLines142]

I am also one of the very few who prefer the Voyagers over the HSTs. I found the legroom on the HSTs rather substantial, and at nearly 6 foot 4 that was a problem.

I had a HST between Bristol and Cheltenham a few weeks ago and I wasn't impressed. Luckily I had a priority seat but I found the seats in general very firm. The information display was also saying we were arriving into Birmingham, which wasn't for another forty minutes into the journey!

I travel on several Voyagers a week and never really take any notice of the vibrations. The toilet also will not stink the carriages out if the vestibule doors are closed.

My only problem with the Voyagers is the obvious length, and the window alignment. Some seats in Standard Class have completely no window whatsoever and in First Class, none of the table seats align with the windows properly which is even worse with the prices some passengers will pay. In First Class especially you want to be able to see things, especially with the large windows on Voyagers.

For those who like legroom like me, I recommend selecting Coach F Seat 16 on the Voyagers. It is a priority seat, with extra legroom and a clear window alignment. Lovely seat!

 

[cjmillsnun]

I travel on several Voyagers a week and never really take any notice of the vibrations. The toilet also will not stink the carriages out if the vestibule doors are closed.

It's not about whether the toilet stinks the carriages out. If the seating is full, you will invariably be standing, quite possibly in the vestibule. It can be very unpleasant.

 

[ValleyLines142]

It's not about whether the toilet stinks the carriages out. If the seating is full, you will invariably be standing, quite possibly in the vestibule. It can be very unpleasant.

I've never smelt anything. To be honest some passengers smell worse

 

[Class 170101]

Huge windows on a Voyager. I do think some people struggle between Pendolino/Voyager for some odd reason when arguing against them.

I was thinking of the space. Getting the window just makes the personal space a bit bigger in the non-aisle seat unlike when getting the bulkhead.

 

[Sparks807Evo]

I travel on the XC Voyagers a fair bit and got to say I don't mind them. Reliability wise and mechanically they're sound trains, and performance wise stronger than a HST (e.g acceleration). Suspension is far superior on the Voyagers, with the MK3s at times very jerky/firm riding I find.

I usually sit in Coach F and D by preference with reserved seats, although have occasionally been in C. Legroom is fine, and if you get a seat towards the end of the coach (e.g F04) you get an excellent amount. The seats themselves are comfortable enough for me, and actually better than XC's HST sets. Redoing the seats and carpets round 2012/2013 certainly helped. Think in any refurbishment in the future, replacing the centre lights with the warm colour LEDs would help the 'failed lights' sometimes prevalent on some. Panelling and seatbacks need a respray of paint, and the overhead seatlights also attended to.

Luggage wise Coach D is very good with that dedicated section; the racks are handy too. The overseat things are of course an issue for larger bags, but unless you divert the air conditioning and vent supply to make the surrounding panelling less bulky it can't be changed; hardly easy or worth it. Provided you know about Coach D, the large luggage issue is avoidable.

I don't usually find many issues with vibrations, rattling or engine noise to be fair. Occasionally on points/rough sections but that's expected. The toilet smell issue is nowhere near prevalent as it once was and been improved in my experience.

My main gripe would be to fit sensors on the vestible end doors, and rectify the external state of them. The trains externally need a bit of attention (revinyl or repaint), as when it starts to peel off, like they do in parts, it looks pretty shabby and makes them look older than they are really. Also it would be far better if the marks from the frontend badges were removed through a respray! The problem is that with their high utilisation, it is not easy to remove sets from service to let them undergo any extensive work currently.

I think really if the Voyagers were all 7 carriages the overcrowding experienced at times would be diminished, and take the eye off other minor flaws. In an ideal situation in the future, the WCML Voyagers would be released, and personally, I'd take a proportion of their intermediate carriages out and insert them into XC's Voyagers to lengthen them.

They're pleasant trains when quiet to be honest, and just need some cosmetic TLC as it were.

 

[DarloRich]

I am sure that from an operational point of view the Voyager is a wonderful train. I am certain it is quicker off the mark, cheaper to run, more reliable, easier to maintain, cheaper to maintain, easier to work, technologically streets ahead of the HST, more flexible, less polluting and a more pleasant environment for the staff.

The sad part is that passengers were not considered at any time during the specification, design, construction and operation of the Voyager! Why cant we have all of the above AND a comfortable, pleasant train to travel on?

The key is to increase capacity within the existing envelope provided by the current trains. XC wont use more HST or buy better trains so making what they have nicer must be the priority.

Having sat on the floor between York and Derby (after which i bailed out for a better train) yesterday I think the following points might fix the Voyager problems:

• Ban all railcard holders, especially student rail card holders
• Ban all students
• Remove first class
• Remove all but 1 accessible toilet
• Remove bike storage and ban bikes
• Remove all seats and refit with a better version
• Add tip up seats to the vestibules.

The good thing I found is that on a Voyager you can sit on the floor in the vestibule and still look out of the window. You cant do THAT on an HST

Today I had a roughly 3 hour trip each way on CrossCountry bettween Newport and Plymouth. The outbound leg was a HST and I'm now sat on a Voyager on the way home. It got me thinking, other than their length, Why do Voyagers get so much bad press on this forum? The HST was bouncy, there was precious little legroom, the seats gave me a bad back before we had even left the station and none of the PIS systems were working. On the other hand, the voyager is comfortable, plenty of legroom, nice ride and has a very pleasant interior ambiance. I can honestly see no reason why anybody would prefer the HST?

I don't believe you have ever traveled on a train. Your experiences might be true if you swapped the two trains around as I find the exact opposite in that it is the Voyager that is uncomfortable.

J'accuse Monsieur XC COE

Personally, I don't think Voyagers are THAT bad, but for me, they aren't the best train for long distance Inter City services.

For me, a Voyager is fine for a 1 to 2 hour journey as long as;

• It's reasonably well maintained
• The plastic bits are screwed in tightly so they don't vibrate/rattle
• You can get a seat with a "reasonable" view out of the window.
• You can get a seat with legroom (normally the Priority Seats).
• It's not too wedged
• The toilets are working properly

Or is that asking too much...

I actually agree with that. Sadly many of those things are often lacking. I might add the ability to get a cup of tea to that list.

The Meridans are the same, really noticeable trundling into St Pancras behind a stopper... Darn sight more comfortable than the Voyagers though.

Fixed that for you The Meridians show that a Voyager family unit can be comfortable enough. Why, because the seats are better, the vibration is less ,the overhead locker takes more baggage and the lessons of the Voyager were learnt. I find them tolerable if less good than an HST. I hope IEP has learned similar lessons!

Voyagers get so much dislike on here because they replaced HSTs and loco hauled stock and everything ordered after privatisation has been a terrible mistake, that is the simplified, honest answer.

Also, rose tinted specs are a wonderful thing.

And people like you blindly think that modern = best. The fact is the Voyager (and many, but not all, new trains) aren't as good, from a "passenger experience" point of view as the trains they replace. I ask why. You and many other posters here don't.

The main reason I prefer the XC HSTs to the Voyagers is that they have far more seats, so you've got a better chance of a window seat or even a table to yourself.

Much of the time you actually get a seat. That's one of the main reasons i like them! I have never had to sit in the doorway of an XC HST. I often have to on a Voyager.

Are people looking at this from a nostalgic point of view or a view from experience?

I'm not saying the Voyagers are better than the HSTs, but if there are a lot of railway nostalgic folk on here then the Voyagers were doomed from the start of this thread

I am speaking form the position of a long suffering long distance cross country passenger. The Voyagers are simply not suitable in their existing format for the routes they are used on. Anyone who says a 4 coach train is suitable for a long distance intercity route is, frankly, a liar.

You can add the following to your list...

Less reliable
More likely to cause delay
Less user friendly

interesting that the comfort of the customer doesn't seem to register on your radar.............

I've never smelt anything. To be honest some passengers smell worse

Instead of using them between Bristol and Gloucester please come with me for ride north of Birmingham on a peak time train on a Friday evening. Stand next to a toilet, crammed in with little room to move, breathing in another's pooh fumes for several hours and then tell me there isnt a problem with the toilets. :roll:

You will soon work out why the 1603 or 1903 trains from Birmingham are the ones to aim for!

 

[SpacePhoenix]

and the lessons of the Voyager were learnt

Is the resistor bank (the ones that cause trouble for Voyagers at Dawlish with sea spray) in a different place on the Meridians?

 

[DarloRich]

Is the resistor bank (the ones that cause trouble for Voyagers at Dawlish with sea spray) in a different place on the Meridians?

no idea. They don't encounter much sea spray between Derby and Leicester

 

[ValleyLines142]

Having sat on the floor between York and Derby (after which i bailed out for a better train) yesterday I think the following points might fix the Voyager problems:

• Ban all railcard holders, especially student rail card holders
• Ban all students
• Remove first class
• Remove all but 1 accessible toilet
• Remove bike storage and ban bikes
• Remove all seats and refit with a better version
• Add tip up seats to the vestibules.

Why? Many students travel across the country to uni etc, although saying that I don't understand how they can afford it with XC's astronomical fares.

Instead of using them between Bristol and Gloucester please come with me for ride north of Birmingham on a peak time train on a Friday evening. Stand next to a toilet, crammed in with little room to move, breathing in another's pooh fumes for several hours and then tell me there isnt a problem with the toilets. :roll:

You will soon work out why the 1603 or 1903 trains from Birmingham are the ones to aim for!

I have travelled on all parts of the routes thanks. I caught a packed Voyager from Birmingham to Leeds last week and still got a seat because I reserved a seat.

 

[DarloRich]

Why? Many students travel across the country to uni etc, although saying that I don't understand how they can afford it with XC's astronomical fares.

They take up seats at a discounted rate that could be sold to normal people paying more. And I don't like students.

I have travelled on all parts of the routes thanks. I caught a packed Voyager from Birmingham to Leeds last week and still got a seat because I reserved a seat.

Bully for you. Try it without having the ability to plan 17 months in advance. Then come back to me.

 

[bramling]

Why? Many students travel across the country to uni etc, although saying that I don't understand how they can afford it with XC's astronomical fares.



I have travelled on all parts of the routes thanks. I caught a packed Voyager from Birmingham to Leeds last week and still got a seat because I reserved a seat.

All the reservations in the world are no use if the train is so overcrowded that you can't actually get to your reserved seat. This is a frequent experience on some Voyager services.

 

[misterredmist]

Gimme the HST anytime , I have nothing further to add to 'DarloRich's' comprehensive list of valid reasons...... I avoid Voyagers like the plague.........

 

[Saint66]

They take up seats at a discounted rate that could be sold to normal people paying more. And I don't like students.





Bully for you. Try it without having the ability to plan 17 months in advance. Then come back to me.

Being a student myself who has travelled on XC and didn't absolutely detest the Voyagers, I'm guessing I'm definitely in the 'do not like' category?

 

[najaB]

no idea. They don't encounter much sea spray between Derby and Leicester

Well, sea level rise and all that. Got to think ahead.

 

[ValleyLines142]

They take up seats at a discounted rate that could be sold to normal people paying more.

That's the case with every train in the country. Students don't just travel on XC services. Is your suggestion to remove railcards altogether? How about removing senior railcards? Can't imagine that going down well....

Also, if you're referring to the NUS discount I can assure you not many people know about it at all.

And I don't like students.

For what reason?

Bully for you. Try it without having the ability to plan 17 months in advance. Then come back to me.

I have done. I have experienced both booking in Advance and travelling on the day and I've never had a problem. I guess I'm just one of the lucky ones.

Being a student myself who has travelled on XC and didn't absolutely detest the Voyagers, I'm guessing I'm definitely in the 'do not like' category?

Exactly. Same with me. I don't see what the issue is. I am not sure where the fact students come into this.