Arriva Rail North DOO

[northwichcat]

They already know what "Their" Plans are. Do we wait until the new trains are built just for DOO? When do you decide to strike? When do you decide is the right time? The trouble is there isn't one. Personally this strike will draw the line in the sand that is needed. There is no right or wrong way.

Their plans involved introducing new services this December which now aren't going to happen, so it's not unreasonable for them to say they are reworking them as long as they say when the plans will be ready for relevant people to see.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's the old Rock and Hard Place. The union want assurances. at the start Arriva were giving out signals about always 2 people on train etc etc.

Then it changed from that to....We Don't know...We Cannot Say.... My personal view is that they will want Northern Connect to be DOO/DCO or whatever term they want to use this week. Mine and a lot of my colleagues/Friends would be happy with the ScotRail Model that was recently agreed BUT it looks like they are going for the GTR Model and that puts fear into everybody.

I see, thanks, those concerns make sense.

 

[northwichcat]

I've seen many employment situations where future guarantees are impossible - things like takeovers, sell-offs, restructuring and plant closures or rationalisation, also obsolescence and modernisation.
They can go on for years, like the Tata Steel situation today, threats to close car factories or move call centres to India.
But I don't remember any staff action prior to specific proposals being tabled and a timetable being set.
Northern are a long way off being able to do that, so there is no clarity on who will be affected.
So why the industrial action?
Is it just to keep the GTR pot boiling?

Seems that way. They can keep a Northern dispute going longer than a Merseyrail one. I also imagine they don't want to give a Merseyrail dispute too much publicity due to DOO being the decision of a Labour run PTE opposed to a Conservative run DfT like Northern.

 

[Carlisle]

I've seen many employment situations where future guarantees are impossible - things like takeovers, sell-offs, restructuring and plant closures or rationalisation, also obsolescence and modernisation.
They can go on for years, like the Tata Steel situation today, threats to close car factories or move call centres to India.
But I don't remember any staff action prior to specific proposals being tabled and a timetable being set.
Northern are a long way off being able to do that, so there is no clarity on who will be affected.
So why the industrial action?
Is it just to keep the GTR pot boiling?

Isn't it a completely different scenario that your describing where unions are well aware that a prolonged dispute in those sectors wouldn't have anything like the immediate impact of a rail strike and would just encourage the multinationals ultimately to switch production abroad

 

[daikilo]

They already know what "Their" Plans are. Do we wait until the new trains are built just for DOO? When do you decide to strike? When do you decide is the right time? The trouble is there isn't one. Personally this strike will draw the line in the sand that is needed. There is no right or wrong way.

Withdrawal of labour should be the last resort as it probably means a sacrifice of pay for those that do it, and will affect customers.

A good start is to be proactive and explain to the employer the general terms of what you are willing to accept and what are definitely no go. As thie concept of DCO/DOO involves both the drivers and guards then getting aligned is also important. As an example, if the drivers are willing to accept CCTV as adequate to allow them to close doors and declare an RA, as guards should want to know it a.s.a.p. Likewise, if a law is likely to be issued (or you can influence one, that requires a train operator to be present during loading an unloading of a mobility chair using a ramp it makes sense to want to discuss what the implications are. This approach is particularly relevant for Arriva given their ownership roots so exploit it.

 

[158756]

Without committing on merits or otherwise does no one set it as a possible tactical move - IE strike early, cause disruption, cost a load of extra money and stick a dent in the net present value figures so cheerfully produced by the RSSB?

I'm not sure the RMT leadership are that tactically minded but messing up the figures for financial benefits would surely be of some interest?

Given the incredible sums of money Northern loses, would strikes actually hurt the DfT finances? I'd bet a fair few Northern routes don't cover the guard's salary plus fuel, maintenance and any zero hours staff (and track access if you save that during a strike).

I want to be sympathetic to the guards here, but you ask everyone who wants to keep guards if they want to pay more tax, I doubt many will say yes. Northern's vast subsidies are not sustainable.

 

[455driver]

but you ask everyone who wants to keep guards if they want to pay more tax, I doubt many will say yes. Northern's vast subsidies are not sustainable.

Thats because with no guards there would be no need to buy a ticket.

 

[sandyravage]

The RMT and the company know exactly what routes the new units will run on and when they will start to operate on those routes. The company also know how they intend to operate these units or should I say they know how they want to operate these units. Aslef reps are booked to travel to the Czech Republic in August to start testing the units and as yet no current invitation has been extended to the RMT to even go and look at the internals or door setups. Northerns outgoing MD also stated to an RMT official last week that "you won't beat the Government on this issue". In reality what Northern aren't saying tells you everything.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thats because with no guards there would be no need to buy a ticket.

Northern could, in the cities at least, quite viably switch to a system of TVMs and proper Penalty Fares (not £80 Penalty Fakes). It works perfectly fine elsewhere, particularly where key destination stations are barriered.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Northerns outgoing MD also stated to an RMT official last week that "you won't beat the Government on this issue".

While I don't compliment him often (or at all), on that he is essentially correct. It's the Government forcing this, not Northern choosing to do it. I doubt it would have even come up had the Government not pushed it. No TOC has previously gone anywhere near the idea.

 

[Starmill]

I want to be sympathetic to the guards here, but you ask everyone who wants to keep guards if they want to pay more tax, I doubt many will say yes. Northern's vast subsidies are not sustainable.

I think this is really over-egging the pudding. The franchise is due to start reaping the benefits of billions of pounds worth of investment later this year and then every year for the rest of the franchise. Revenue growth could be huge because in general Northern have low market share (note your complaint about "vast subsidies" the number of routes where Northern lose market share to unsubsidised train companies!!!).

A strike at this critical stage will undermine revenue growth and confidence in the long-term, and thereby the return on the billions of pounds of public money going into new infrastructure and the investments in ordering new rolling stock. It's absolute madness of the highest order to suggest that the financial position of the franchise will be improved by strikes.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

While I don't compliment him often (or at all), on that he is essentially correct. It's the Government forcing this, not Northern choosing to do it. I doubt it would have even come up had the Government not pushed it. No TOC has previously gone anywhere near the idea.

I do tend to agree with this. Or more importantly it is the DfT's idea, rather than the Government directly. The Government can be thrown out, DfT officials cannot, so policies just carry on regardless of the party in charge, unless the political party in charge actually has someone as Transport Secretary / Minister who knows what they are on about and has the balls to tell the DfT civil servants to change direction. Since privatisation in 1996 this appears to have singularly failed to happen.

Also worth remembering too that the general public at large don't support prolonged striking, especially in public transport and things which inconvenience them. Nowadays they dislike the left wing rabble rousing rhetoric of the RMT press office even more than ever. Any strikes now, would likely go on for a long term, which could actually play right into the DfT's hands. By time Northern actually get round to introducing DOO then the striking guards will be skint and won't be able to afford to carry on striking and the public will be so utterly annoyed with it all they won't care what happens to the guards anyway.

Furthermore, I am not entirely sure what going on strike will achieve. The DfT quite clearly will not change its mind. If rafts of strikes in the South won't change the minds I am not sure how strikes in the forgotten North will do, unless they are thinking ahead to the next election and all those marginal seats, but by then there will no doubt be more important things for people to worry about. Northern have a franchise agreement that a) compels them to introduce DOO on a minimum of 50% of franchise mileage and b) covers their costs and any losses incurred by industrial action. So they, like Southern, have nothing to loose.

And Finally, don't forget that Rail North helped to specify and choose the franchise, and Rail North have a considerable oversight and say in what goes on. It may have escaped everyone's notice that 8 of the 11 Directors of Rail North are Labour Councillors, so Labour councillors helped to specify and choose the franchise.

 

[313103]

The RMT and the company know exactly what routes the new units will run on and when they will start to operate on those routes. The company also know how they intend to operate these units or should I say they know how they want to operate these units. Aslef reps are booked to travel to the Czech Republic in August to start testing the units and as yet no current invitation has been extended to the RMT to even go and look at the internals or door setups. Northerns outgoing MD also stated to an RMT official last week that "you won't beat the Government on this issue". In reality what Northern aren't saying tells you everything.

There is a obvious reason why Northern are paying for the Aslef reps to have a trip and probably more then one to the Czech Republic and not the Rmt, that is because they envisage 'only' Aslef members on these trains in the first place, so why would they send Rmt reps there.

We all know its all about deskilling and i will keep on repeating it casulisation of the rail industry. I wonder what the railway in the uk will be like in ten years with just a few members of staff at a barrier (where one is fitted), no one on the train except a driver and very few others. At least one good thing could come out of it, the amount of money saved on all those top heavy managers that are currently in existence, as they wont be needed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But yet the railway has actually upstaffed a bit over the last few years - more platform staff, more customer assistance staff, staff fulfilling online and phone bookings, First Class stewards, reopened ticket offices etc. Does anyone really think it'll end up looking like SBB, which really *is* a low-staff, work-it-out-yourself (oh, and that'll be 80 quid if you get it wrong, please) railway?

 

[Carlisle]

Furthermore, I am not entirely sure what going on strike will achieve. .

Some suggest the Scotrail deal, but unless there's a complete government u turn im pretty sure that from the industry's /professionals or DFTs viewpoint its seen as giving the railways virtually no advantages or additional flexibility over the current system, so isn't a realistic goal

 

[Andrew32]

By time Northern actually get round to introducing DOO then the striking guards will be skint and won't be able to afford to carry on striking and the public will be so utterly annoyed with it all they won't care what happens to the guards anyway.

Northern have a franchise agreement that a) compels them to introduce DOO on a minimum of 50% of franchise mileage and b) covers their costs and any losses incurred by industrial action. So they, like Southern, have nothing to loose.

Three very valid points there, especially the first one.

Anyone who thinks that this dispute will be a short one is living in cloud cuckoo land and by the time the new trains arrive later in 2018, public support will have waned and employee's will be penniless.

Better to fight later on in my opinion, like a bull in a China shop springs to mind.

The outgoing MD has already stated that they won't staff every train by stating that they wish to run DCO and the intention is to run two trail routes to determine the working method, but the RMT won't discuss until a guarantee of a second safety-critical person every train is given and I'm afraid to say that that ain't ever going to happen.

There are two options for staff to consider.

Fight and loose a fortune in the process and then loose a fortune on top of that when they are forced to except the new role or face making themselves unemployed or except 10 years of pay and job security and possibly loose a fortune after that depending what the new franchisee decides to do after 2026.

Full DCO/DOO is years away on the network and in some places may not happen at all.

Get round the table and find some middle ground, safety is key but so is common sense.

 

[313103]

But yet the railway has actually upstaffed a bit over the last few years - more platform staff, more customer assistance staff, staff fulfilling online and phone bookings, First Class stewards, reopened ticket offices etc. Does anyone really think it'll end up looking like SBB, which really *is* a low-staff, work-it-out-yourself (oh, and that'll be 80 quid if you get it wrong, please) railway?

I certainly hope its isnt like sbb (not that i have travelled on there railways), but we are certainly going away from staff employed direct by the company, to using more and more agency staff, probably on minimum wage, probably with no sick pay, probably with no Annual leave, certainly with no pension, most likely on a zero hours contract and when people see that folly they will be wondering why they are there at all.

Reopened ticket offices will not last long as has been mentioned already in a previous thread everything will be more or less done cashless and online, in fact GOVIA are already doing this on Southern and London Midland.

 

[Robertj21a]

I do tend to agree with this. Or more importantly it is the DfT's idea, rather than the Government directly. The Government can be thrown out, DfT officials cannot, so policies just carry on regardless of the party in charge, unless the political party in charge actually has someone as Transport Secretary / Minister who knows what they are on about and has the balls to tell the DfT civil servants to change direction. Since privatisation in 1996 this appears to have singularly failed to happen.

Also worth remembering too that the general public at large don't support prolonged striking, especially in public transport and things which inconvenience them. Nowadays they dislike the left wing rabble rousing rhetoric of the RMT press office even more than ever. Any strikes now, would likely go on for a long term, which could actually play right into the DfT's hands. By time Northern actually get round to introducing DOO then the striking guards will be skint and won't be able to afford to carry on striking and the public will be so utterly annoyed with it all they won't care what happens to the guards anyway.

Furthermore, I am not entirely sure what going on strike will achieve. The DfT quite clearly will not change its mind. If rafts of strikes in the South won't change the minds I am not sure how strikes in the forgotten North will do, unless they are thinking ahead to the next election and all those marginal seats, but by then there will no doubt be more important things for people to worry about. Northern have a franchise agreement that a) compels them to introduce DOO on a minimum of 50% of franchise mileage and b) covers their costs and any losses incurred by industrial action. So they, like Southern, have nothing to loose.

And Finally, don't forget that Rail North helped to specify and choose the franchise, and Rail North have a considerable oversight and say in what goes on. It may have escaped everyone's notice that 8 of the 11 Directors of Rail North are Labour Councillors, so Labour councillors helped to specify and choose the franchise.

A very sensible post. Worth a re-read.

Thank you.

 

[northwichcat]

I certainly hope its isnt like sbb (not that i have travelled on there railways), but we are certainly going away from staff employed direct by the company, to using more and more agency staff, probably on minimum wage, probably with no sick pay, probably with no Annual leave, certainly with no pension, most likely on a zero hours contract and when people see that folly they will be wondering why they are there at all.

It's worth noting the second member of staff on board Northern DCO services has to be a member of franchise staff.

 

[northwichcat]

The Government can be thrown out, DfT officials cannot, so policies just carry on regardless of the party in charge, unless the political party in charge actually has someone as Transport Secretary / Minister who knows what they are on about and has the balls to tell the DfT civil servants to change direction. Since privatisation in 1996 this appears to have singularly failed to happen.

Well a senior civil servant advised DfT that Pacers should continue to be used by Northern post-2019 for the reasons Northern can't afford more expensive stock and that passenger numbers are rising even with using Pacers. However, Patrick McLoughlin chose to ignore his reasoning and decided the Northern franchise should have to replace Pacers.

And Finally, don't forget that Rail North helped to specify and choose the franchise, and Rail North have a considerable oversight and say in what goes on. It may have escaped everyone's notice that 8 of the 11 Directors of Rail North are Labour Councillors, so Labour councillors helped to specify and choose the franchise.

It was also a coalition government who worked with Rail North on the franchise spec so you could say the Northern and TPE franchise specs were specified by all 3 of the Conservatives, Labour and Lib Dems. It was the latter who started calls for Pacer replacement with Southport MP John Pugh having campaigned for it for a long time with Nick Clegg (being deputy PM) helping to convince Patrick McLoughlin that it was the right thing to do.

 

[radamfi]

I certainly hope its isnt like sbb

SBB or Northern? Difficult choice...

 

[wfrank]

There is a obvious reason why Northern are paying for the Aslef reps to have a trip and probably more then one to the Czech Republic and not the Rmt, that is because they envisage 'only' Aslef members on these trains in the first place, so why would they send Rmt reps there.

We all know its all about deskilling and i will keep on repeating it casulisation of the rail industry. I wonder what the railway in the uk will be like in ten years with just a few members of staff at a barrier (where one is fitted), no one on the train except a driver and very few others.

You have to face up to the fact that guards are no longer needed. Just as diesels & electrics meant that stokers were irrelevant. Although it took British Railways a long time to rid cabs of a teasmaid for the driver. Well paid,capable drivers using the latest technology can do the job of the rmt guard & do it more safely from a relaxed sitting position in a warm cab,& probably cut down platform dispatchers to one per busy island platform too. The evidence ? The millions of trains running annually around the world with only an able driver aboard. Don't stop progress & the chance that fewer staff will mean more efficient & more widespread railways for the future generations,our children. Fighting for sectional interests is selfish & in the long run pointless,re Ned Lud.

 

[northwichcat]

Thats because with no guards there would be no need to buy a ticket.

Providing an on board member of staff who doesn't have to do the doors means they will have longer to spend on revenue duties. You may say there isn't a guarantee that a service will run without that member of staff but there is currently no guarantee the guard will come through to sell tickets.

Out of my most recent Northern journeys.

Journey 1 - RPI checked ticket prior to boarding. Conductor came through to sell tickets to those boarding at unstaffed stations but didn't do any ticket inspection while I was on the train.

Journey 2 - People standing on train. Conductor decided to not attempt to get through to do tickets while I was on the train. No RPI checking tickets at either origin or destination station.

Journey 3 - Conductor remained in cab except to do doors while I was on the train. No RPI checking tickets at either origin or destination station.

Journey 4 - Again conductor remained in cab except to do doors while I was on the train. No RPI checking tickets at either origin or destination station.

None of the above were late night services or services where you'd expect the conductor to get any kind of abuse from doing a ticket inspection.

 

[Dave1987]

You have to face up to the fact that guards are no longer needed. Just as diesels & electrics meant that stokers were irrelevant. Although it took British Railways a long time to rid cabs of a teasmaid for the driver. Well paid,capable drivers using the latest technology can do the job of the rmt guard & do it more safely from a relaxed sitting position in a warm cab,& probably cut down platform dispatchers to one per busy island platform too. The evidence ? The millions of trains running annually around the world with only an able driver aboard. Don't stop progress & the chance that fewer staff will mean more efficient & more widespread railways for the future generations,our children. Fighting for sectional interests is selfish & in the long run pointless,re Ned Lud.

Hmmm definitely don't agree with that statement.

 

[455driver]

Just as diesels & electrics meant that stokers were irrelevant. Although it took British Railways a long time to rid cabs of a teasmaid for the driver.

Who was going to look after the steam heat boiler then?

Got your dig at staff in there as well so well done for that! :roll:

 

[HH]

Given the incredible sums of money Northern loses, would strikes actually hurt the DfT finances? I'd bet a fair few Northern routes don't cover the guard's salary plus fuel, maintenance and any zero hours staff (and track access if you save that during a strike).

I want to be sympathetic to the guards here, but you ask everyone who wants to keep guards if they want to pay more tax, I doubt many will say yes. Northern's vast subsidies are not sustainable.

Track Access is saved. They might also save some driver RDW, plus train maintenance and cleaning. I know that LSE TOCs were in 'strike profit' while in Revenue Support, so I suspect that if Northern cherry pick the trains to run (and why wouldn't they?) they would be too.

 

[HH]

Northern could, in the cities at least, quite viably switch to a system of TVMs and proper Penalty Fares (not £80 Penalty Fakes). It works perfectly fine elsewhere, particularly where key destination stations are barriered.

This is too simplistic a view. There's an awful lot of revenue that's ungated or part-gated on Northern. And gates need staffing.

 

[HH]

I think this is really over-egging the pudding. The franchise is due to start reaping the benefits of billions of pounds worth of investment later this year and then every year for the rest of the franchise. Revenue growth could be huge because in general Northern have low market share (note your complaint about "vast subsidies" the number of routes where Northern lose market share to unsubsidised train companies!!!).

A strike at this critical stage will undermine revenue growth and confidence in the long-term, and thereby the return on the billions of pounds of public money going into new infrastructure and the investments in ordering new rolling stock. It's absolute madness of the highest order to suggest that the financial position of the franchise will be improved by strikes.

The benefits of the investment will take a time to be felt; it may well be thought that getting strikes out the way early is the best option. In any case, based on previous experience, while the base might be affected, the long term growth will not be. On the busy routes the trains will be full and standing all too soon.

 

[HH]

Providing an on board member of staff who doesn't have to do the doors means they will have longer to spend on revenue duties. You may say there isn't a guarantee that a service will run without that member of staff but there is currently no guarantee the guard will come through to sell tickets.

Out of my most recent Northern journeys.

Journey 1 - RPI checked ticket prior to boarding. Conductor came through to sell tickets to those boarding at unstaffed stations but didn't do any ticket inspection while I was on the train.

Journey 2 - People standing on train. Conductor decided to not attempt to get through to do tickets while I was on the train. No RPI checking tickets at either origin or destination station.

Journey 3 - Conductor remained in cab except to do doors while I was on the train. No RPI checking tickets at either origin or destination station.

Journey 4 - Again conductor remained in cab except to do doors while I was on the train. No RPI checking tickets at either origin or destination station.

None of the above were late night services or services where you'd expect the conductor to get any kind of abuse from doing a ticket inspection.

And here we have the nub of why the DfT are so keen on DCO. In their eyes Guards add very little value to train operation ("added value" being the number one buzzphrase these days). They'd rather have Ticket Examiners.

 

[40129]

Providing an on board member of staff who doesn't have to do the doors means they will have longer to spend on revenue duties. You may say there isn't a guarantee that a service will run without that member of staff but there is currently no guarantee the guard will come through to sell tickets.

Out of my most recent Northern journeys.

Journey 1 - RPI checked ticket prior to boarding. Conductor came through to sell tickets to those boarding at unstaffed stations but didn't do any ticket inspection while I was on the train.

Journey 2 - People standing on train. Conductor decided to not attempt to get through to do tickets while I was on the train. No RPI checking tickets at either origin or destination station.
Journey 3 - Conductor remained in cab except to do doors while I was on the train. No RPI checking tickets at either origin or destination station.

Journey 4 - Again conductor remained in cab except to do doors while I was on the train. No RPI checking tickets at either origin or destination station.

None of the above were late night services or services where you'd expect the conductor to get any kind of abuse from doing a ticket inspection.

And this is the total opposite of my most recent experience of Northern (and TPE):

Journey 1: Piccadilly to HFX. Ticket checked on both trains as well as by RPIs at Halifax

Journey 2: Halifax to Manchester Airport. No RPI at Halifax but ticket checked on all three trains despite the last being a class 323

Journey 3: Manchester Airport to Crewe. Ticket checked despite the train being a class 323 and me being in the front car

These were all daytime trains