Question regarding turning Class 68 engines off

[t_star2001uk]

PC = Prepare cab ( mobilise set)
TC = Trip cab ( demobilise set)

 

[putabidin]

Live next to the railway and complain about the noise trains make.... Standard.

Those who bought more than 4 years ago had absolutely no idea that the Class 68 locos were coming into service, with the consequence of the "impressive" noise that they make, or the prolonged idling time involved in the operation.

Those who moved in before Chiltern took the franchise were used to a much lower number of DMU movements. DMUs make a noise, which we all signed up to, but nothing compared to the rumbling, throaty noise of the Class 68s, which can be felt as well as heard.

For you I suppose it's a case of "I don't live near the railway so it doesn't matter how much noise they make".

Please don't be so dismissive and try to be constructive, as others have.

 

[putabidin]

PC time for a 68 hauled set is 17 mins in a platform
TC time for a 68 hauled set is 10 mins in a platform

Within 2 minutes of arrival the driver walks to the other end of the train and turns off the engine. Noise stops. Driver leaves the loco.

My question is, how long before departure does it HAVE to be turned on again. I have observed anything from 15 to 7 minutes. What is the minimum time between the noise starting up again and the train leaving.

I'm not into confronting Chiltern, just understanding the essential operational needs.

 

[hwl]

Within 2 minutes of arrival the driver walks to the other end of the train and turns off the engine. Noise stops. Driver leaves the loco.

My question is, how long before departure does it HAVE to be turned on again. I have observed anything from 15 to 7 minutes. What is the minimum time between the noise starting up again and the train leaving.

I'm not into confronting Chiltern, just understanding the essential operational needs.

Depending on how the drivers are rostered they may have a compulsory rest break at Marylebone so requiring them to do more while the train is in platform may eat into the break requiring Chiltern to hire more drivers to compensate thus costing them an additional 6 figure sum annual so it isn't just about the loco.

 

[87015]

Those who bought more than 4 years ago had absolutely no idea that the Class 68 locos were coming into service, with the consequence of the "impressive" noise that they make, or the prolonged idling time involved in the operation.

Those who moved in before Chiltern took the franchise were used to a much lower number of DMU movements. DMUs make a noise, which we all signed up to, but nothing compared to the rumbling, throaty noise of the Class 68s, which can be felt as well as heard.

For you I suppose it's a case of "I don't live near the railway so it doesn't matter how much noise they make".

Please don't be so dismissive and try to be constructive, as others have.

The people four years ago complained about 67s (much more understandably as GM two stroke IMO) which was a factor in 68s - with much more modern power units - being introduced. There have been 'big' diesels working out of Marylebone daily since 2008...

 

[CyrusWuff]

My question is, how long before departure does it HAVE to be turned on again. I have observed anything from 15 to 7 minutes. What is the minimum time between the noise starting up again and the train leaving.

Short answer: It depends.

Longer answer: If the train has been fully shut down and sat in a platform for an hour, with the parking brake applied and the generator set in the DVT running to provide hotel power, it's going to take nearer the full 17 minutes allowed for it to be ready to enter service. If it's just come off Wembley Depot and been left in a partially shut down state with the generator not started, it'll tend towards the lower end of the scale.

 

[Darandio]

Those who moved in before Chiltern took the franchise were used to a much lower number of DMU movements. DMUs make a noise, which we all signed up to, but nothing compared to the rumbling, throaty noise of the Class 68s, which can be felt as well as heard.

What did you sign?

I think what the OP is after here is some kind of exact figure. They (and others presumably) can then get the stopwatch out and send a complaint when this time is exceeded, most likely demanding some kind of reparation. Am I about right?

Given they already have processes in place to maintain their 'good neighbour' status, i'm not sure what else they are expected to do.

 

[Townsend Hook]

Surely when buying a property near a railway one cannot assume that traffic levels will remain as they are in perpetuity, and then be upset when they increase? With the rail network virtually at capacity on many routes the railway cannot afford to leave lines serving major passenger flows (i.e. London-Birmingham) with a skeleton service such as that Marylebone used to have into the West Midlands. Yes, train operators and Network Rail should take practical steps to reduce the impact on neighbours, such as leaving engines running for a minimum amount of time, but there is a line.

 

[eastdyke]

This letter from ORR to the Noise and Vibration Action Group would seem to make some pertinent points:

http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf...ainability-noise-and-vibration-2015-02-06.pdf

In particular (but definitely not only):

In general, obligations and rights in relation to environmental pollution and nuisance are determined by specific acts of Parliament, notably the
Environmental Protection Act 1990. The Act also places responsibility for
investigation and enforcement with local authorities.
It is for these enforcement bodies under environmental law to establish whether or not a particular business is compliant or not, and to determine the appropriate sanctions.

It is not as simple as just the quoted piece!

 

[najaB]

Surely when buying a property near a railway one cannot assume that traffic levels will remain as they are in perpetuity, and then be upset when they increase?

From putabidin's questions and contributions I get the distinct impression that they would have been fine with a quantitative change, but it's the qualitative change to the noise profile that is causing such consternation.

In many regards it parallels this thread: Couple who live near railway are upset by noisy Class 37's, in that the couple are quoted as saying they don't mind living near the railway but the introduction of Class 37s and the fact that they are started at silly-o'clock in the morning has been more than they can put up with.

If you've heard/felt a Class 68 at idle you would be able to empathise with the OP. My first experience was hearing a 68 idling at Edinburgh Waverley platform 19 (might have been 20, can't remember) from the other side of Princes Street!

 

[Townsend Hook]

From putabidin's questions and contributions I get the distinct impression that they would have been fine with a quantitative change, but it's the qualitative change to the noise profile that is causing such consternation.

In many regards it parallels this thread: Couple who live near railway are upset by noisy Class 37's, in that the couple are quoted as saying they don't mind living near the railway but the introduction of Class 37s and the fact that they are started at silly-o'clock in the morning has been more than they can put up with.

If you've heard/felt a Class 68 at idle you would be able to empathise with the OP. My first experience was hearing a 68 idling at Edinburgh Waverley platform 19 (might have been 20, can't remember) from the other side of Princes Street!

The case of the 37s isn't quite the same: there is a chronic DMU shortage and Northern need whatever they can get to make up the extra capacity, so if they weren't disturbing folk on the Cumbrian Coast they'd be disturbing other folk somewhere else in the North. Chiltern needed mainline-quality diesel stock, maybe they could have ordered more 168esque DMUs but then they'd have the DfT to contend with. Beyond only running the engines on the locos for as short a time as reasonably possible I fail to see what other mitigation Chiltern/Network Rail could put in place. Reversing the set with some kind of exhaust scrubbers in the trainshed has been suggested, but the loco noise in a confined area frequently occuring through a shift would realistically be a health hazard to station staff.

 

[najaB]

Beyond only running the engines on the locos for as short a time as reasonably possible I fail to see what other mitigation Chiltern/Network Rail could put in place.

As I said above, "We have looked at all the options available and we can't find any way to mitigate the issue. We remain open to suggestions." is a perfectly acceptable answer from Chiltern/NR.

What isn't acceptable is the "You moved next to a railway so STFU." attitude displayed by some of this forum's contributors.

 

[putabidin]

If the train has been fully shut down and sat in a platform for an hour, with the parking brake applied and the generator set in the DVT running to provide hotel power, it's going to take nearer the full 17 minutes allowed for it to be ready to enter service. If it's just come off Wembley Depot and been left in a partially shut down state with the generator not started, it'll tend towards the lower end of the scale.

Your answer is appreciated. You seem to know about 68s.
Your best estimate if train has been shut down after a long run for just 15minutes?

 

[TheEdge]

Your answer is appreciated. You seem to know about 68s.
Your best estimate if train has been shut down after a long run for just 15minutes?

You've already been told, the time allowed to prep a cab is 17 minutes. Which means the only number you will get officially is 17 minutes. It may take a lot less in reality in certain situations but officially it will be 17, assuming the figure provided by t_star2001uk is correct, which I don't doubt.

You contact Chiltern they will tell you the time needed is 17 minutes, believe it or not things like this are timed to the minute regardless of how long it might take different individuals. It will be the only official number you will get.

 

[t_star2001uk]

17 minutes is the time allowed to mobilise a loco set in a platform and this time is actually built into the diagrams. Depot mobilisation takes a little longer due to a brake continuity test having to be carried out.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Your answer is appreciated. You seem to know about 68s.
Your best estimate if train has been shut down after a long run for just 15minutes?

It's not specific to Class 68s. The same would apply to most Diesels, be they locos or units.

The 17 minutes quoted by earlier in the thread will have been calculated by adding together an allowance for each step in the prep process, including the time taken to walk from the cab of the DVT to the loco. These will usually be generous and assume you're trying to walk against the flow of a train load of passengers.

Whilst it can be achieved more quickly (the extreme example being two Drivers bringing the set into London, with one in the DVT and one in the loco), the chances of any TOC issuing an instruction saying that engines must not be started more than n minutes before departure (where n is the allowed prep time) is slim, at best, as it would almost certainly result in large numbers of late departures.

Looking at the timetable, there are only a few trains that sit at Marylebone for long enough that I would guess the loco would be shut down:

• 1010 to Birmingham : Borderline, as it's formed off an 0938 arrival
• 1310 to Birmingham : Borderline, as it's formed off an 1241 arrival
• 1615 to Kidderminster : Formed off the 1538 arrival
• 1815 to Kidderminster : Formed off the 1740 arrival

Every other loco-hauled working is in the platform for 25 minutes or less, thus I wouldn't expect them to be shut down, so if they are that's a bonus.

 

[putabidin]

I think the time has come to say thank you to everyone who contributed to this thread. Especially I would like to thank CyrusWuff, t star2001uk and najaB for their understanding and helpful comments

 

[furnessvale]

As I said above, "We have looked at all the options available and we can't find any way to mitigate the issue. We remain open to suggestions." is a perfectly acceptable answer from Chiltern/NR.

What isn't acceptable is the "You moved next to a railway so STFU." attitude displayed by some of this forum's contributors.

I tend to show as much sympathy as people living next to existing main roads get.

 

[DelW]

One aspect that surprises me, from this thread and others from the OP, is that the 68's are apparently so much noisier than the 67s, backed up by others' observations as well. I would have expected a more modern loco to be quieter, especially as the 67s are powered by GM710 engines whose basic design goes back to the late 1930s.

Does anyone know what the source of the extra noise and vibration is, whether this is from the engine itself or e.g. body panels vibrating because their natural frequency matches that of the engine? If the latter, something like applying damping material to the panels might reduce the problem. Also, is the problem common to similar locos in Europe, or is it a consequence of squeezing a standard European design into the UK loading gauge, maybe reducing room for silencers etc. It seems from comments above that they are noisier both at idle and at speed.

I haven't been to Marylebone in the 68 era, will have to go along and have a listen.

 

[najaB]

Does anyone know what the source of the extra noise and vibration is, whether this is from the engine itself or e.g. body panels vibrating because their natural frequency matches that of the engine? If the latter, something like applying damping material to the panels might reduce the problem.

It's a deep bass rumble, not vibrating panels or similar, definitely from the engine.

 

[t_star2001uk]

From what i have been told a 68 is louder than a 67 by 1 or 2 Db but the frequemcy of the sound is much lower...

 

[KingDaveRa]

The 68s do sound very different. It's a very thumpy noise. I'm quite surprised they've gotten into service being that loud, I'd have presumed there's restrictions (EU or local government) on how loud they can be, but quite possibly not.

 

[najaB]

From what i have been told a 68 is louder than a 67 by 1 or 2 Db but the frequemcy of the sound is much lower...

And low frequencies carry further than high for the same sound pressure level at source.

 

[putabidin]

Every other loco-hauled working is in the platform for 25 minutes or less, thus I wouldn't expect them to be shut down, so if they are that's a bonus.

CyrusWoof

Many thanks for that comprehensive answer, and I think this is my last question.

You are absolutely right in your shutdown estimates but what is it that leads you to expect no shutdown for trains staying less than 25 minutes? What is against an instruction that all trains staying over 17 minutes have to be switched off, even if only for 5-6 minutes? I'm given to understand that it is never the same driver on the return journey.

Is it mechanical or operational? What harm would that do?

It sounds petty, I know, but that would actually reduce the "disturbance" time by 17%, or over 40 minutes during daylight hours and no one has told me why it shouldn't happen.

 

[putabidin]

CyrusWoof

Sorry. CyrusWuff

 

[455driver]

I can't answer for the Class 68s, but I have often heard the Class 218s of the German railways (DBAG) being started at Munich Hbf only a couple of minutes before the train departed. These are a much older design than the Class 68s.

(I used to live in Munich and have personal experience).

And that is the difference, with older designs its simply a question of building up air pressure and away you go, if you try that with the latest designs the computer will say no and you wont be going anywhere until everything is fully up to temperature.

 

[Taunton]

London has made some moves against buses etc sitting idling at bus termini with engines running all the time. I don't think comments to the adjacent residents of "well you live on a road so must expect vehicles" got very far. This is likely to extend very soon with a campaign against diesel road vehicle pollution, which has become a significant problem, especially as private cars have to an extent been squeezed out from central London by various measures and most road vehicles now, buses, trucks, taxis, millions of Uber chancers, etc, are invariably diesel. Railway diesels will get swept up in this.

I think saying the diesel must thrum away for 17 minutes before departure will be laughed at by all the politicians and activists - and by a significant number of engineering professionals as well. I bet there were those in the 1950s who said that inner London steam loco sheds needed to light up 50 steam locos on Sunday afternoon 12 hours before being needed, and got the same short shrift from the Smokeless Zone legislators as well.

 

[455driver]

As I said above, "We have looked at all the options available and we can't find any way to mitigate the issue. We remain open to suggestions." is a perfectly acceptable answer from Chiltern/NR.

What isn't acceptable is the "You moved next to a railway so STFU." attitude displayed by some of this forum's contributors.

But both answers are effectively the same!

Bring back the 127s I say, they were much quieter than a 68!

 

[putabidin]

I haven't been to Marylebone in the 68 era, will have to go along and have a listen.

I would be very interested in your observations when you do.
Try standing in Boston Place, which is the road to the east of the station.

For best effect try 08.30 or 17.30 when there are two idling at the same time otherwise check the timetable for arrivals/departures designated MS. These are the 68s (sorry if you already knew this).

 

[tellytype]

This sort of low rumble is characteristic of modern large diesels.

At Dover in the era of the Seacats you could hear one before you could see it, a good mile off the harbour, it had a signature low rumble that couldn't be anything else.