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National Routeing Guide v. National Rail Enquiries

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HowMuch?

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A couple of years ago or so, ATOC rather undermined the National Routeing Guide by saying that any route must be checked with the National Rail Enquiries website.

Is that rule still in place? I have just started to try to understand the National Routeing Guide (or National Negative Easement Guide) again, but I'm not sure it's worth it.

BTW, the reason I went back to it was because the NRE site says "for other routes, refer to NRG". Circular reference, or what?
 
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najaB

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A couple of years ago or so, ATOC rather undermined the National Routeing Guide by saying that any route must be checked with the National Rail Enquiries website.
Did they actually say that? You wouldn't happen to have a quote by any chance? The reason I ask is because, as you say, NRE tells you to check the routeing guide.

What I do know is that any itinerary produced by NRE is - de facto and de jure - valid, perhaps that is what they were referring to?
 

ainsworth74

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I have a feeling that ATOC dropped a reference into the Routeing Guide itself about checking with NRE for definitive routes or something like that probably in this 'How to use' PDF. I'm sure there was discussion on here about it at the time. NRE is still mentioned but obviously they've dialed it back a bit to just explaining that NRE is powered from the Routeing Guide rather than NRE being definitive interpretation of it.

In any case, to answer the OP, the Routeing Guide remains the primary source of routes and therefore trumps NRE.
 

HowMuch?

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Thank you for the replies. If it's the NRG that's definitive I will brush up on how to use it.

The reference to the NRG on the National Rail Enquiries site is at the bottom of the page that shows the map with alternative routes. I noticed it when following up the other thread about London to Glasgow routes. The map page shows three! (so the "see NRG" reference is obviously very necessary in that instance).
 

HowMuch?

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I can't remember where the new instruction to check the NRE was. But I'm sure many members will remember the discussion it provoked on here. We feared it was going to be a way of de-permitting routes on the sly. But they must have decided they could keep the NRG and just add "easememts"
 

infobleep

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Obviously errors do occur but could a rail company or even National Rail Enquiries make a change in their system to remove a permitted route, so that they didn't have to go through consultationa to amend the routing guide?

I'm not saying this has occurred. It could be that a member of staff wasn't doing something correctly.
 

sheff1

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Obviously errors do occur but could a rail company or even National Rail Enquiries make a change in their system to remove a permitted route, so that they didn't have to go through consultationa to amend the routing guide?

Over time, a number of changes have been made to NRE, other journey planners and ticket websites which result in permitted routes for certain journeys not appearing when you search.

The effect is only that you cannot get an itinerary. The ticket remains valid via all permitted routes shown in the Routeing Guide.
 

najaB

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Obviously errors do occur but could a rail company or even National Rail Enquiries make a change in their system to remove a permitted route, so that they didn't have to go through consultationa to amend the routing guide?
The routeing guide will always take precedence though, so any changes to the NRE code are inconsequential.
 

infobleep

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Over time, a number of changes have been made to NRE, other journey planners and ticket websites which result in permitted routes for certain journeys not appearing when you search.

The effect is only that you cannot get an itinerary. The ticket remains valid via all permitted routes shown in the Routeing Guide.

The routeing guide will always take precedence though, so any changes to the NRE code are inconsequential.
Thanks for that. That's what I thought.
 

Bookd

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I believe it to be the case that understanding the National Routing Guide is rather like the Victorian political problem of the Schleswig-Holstein question. When someone was asked to explain it the answer was that only three people fully understood it of whom two had died and the other had lost his mind in the process!
 

yorkie

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I believe it to be the case that understanding the National Routing Guide is rather like the Victorian political problem of the Schleswig-Holstein question. When someone was asked to explain it the answer was that only three people fully understood it of whom two had died and the other had lost his mind in the process!
Get yourself to one of our Fares Workshops and we'll try our best to explain it to you ;)
 

Camden

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I think it's pretty daft that the routing guide hasn't been turned into App form by now.

Instead of looking up routing points, the answers to any query could be had by anyone without any training in mere seconds.
 

najaB

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Anyone know what aspect was found difficult?
Due to the large number of possible routes through some maps, and the multiple connections between maps it quickly becomes a computationally hard problem. Graph colouring gets exponentially harder with increasing numbers of vertices.
 

sheff1

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Anyone know what aspect was found difficult?

The 1997 paper Routeing Guide had 27 maps. By 2011 the number of maps had increased to 125. The current version has 352 !

That may have something to do with it.
 
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infobleep

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Due to the large number of possible routes through some maps, and the multiple connections between maps it quickly becomes a computationally hard problem. Graph colouring gets exponentially harder with increasing numbers of vertices.
They could make the existing maps available in an app though.

Here's one or two ideas off the top of my head.

You put in your starting station and your destination station. The system works out the valid routing points and the combinations of maps you can use, taking into account fares and easements.

It then presents to you the list of map combinations you can use. You then select with combination you'd like to use, if a choice exists that is and then the maps with routing lines appear on your screen. So you wouldn't just be lookibg looking at each routing map in turn but multiple maps at once. Each route would have to be colour coded and you'd have to be able to switch one off or no due to the possibility of overlaps according between maps.

That isn't telling you if A to B is valid but it's allowing you to see with routing maps you are allowed to consult without one having to consult PDFs. I've used the PDFs and routing maps on my mobile and it's not so easily to work with them on such a small screen. I don't always have my computer to hand.

Perhaps they could even allow you to trace over the lines using your finger and then determine if your route is valid. That bit might be too complicated so the first idea would be better.

Perhaps someone could explain why my above ideas couldn't be implemented.
 

Camden

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Due to the large number of possible routes through some maps, and the multiple connections between maps it quickly becomes a computationally hard problem. Graph colouring gets exponentially harder with increasing numbers of vertices.

Could you give an example if possible?

My thinking is that there are two primary asks:
1) To establish whether a particular route is valid
2) To view all possible routes between two points

The issue of maps is only a graphical output of the result of the enquiry, not the result of the enquiry itself, so I'm finding it difficult to envisage why the machinations of the computations couldn't be kept away from the end user, and a solution found in order to display results.

If there are a large number of variables and permutations, I would have thought that this would be performed far better by computer.
 
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najaB

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Could you give an example if possible?

My thinking is that there are two primary asks:
1) To establish whether a particular route is valid
2) To view all possible routes between two points...
The first is probably doable, the second is very hard. If you've been to a fares workshop, Yorkie has an example of a journey between two stations in the middle of England that have valid routes that include stations on the south coast.

I think I wrote it down at the last workshop I went to, I'll have a hunt for it.
 

JB_B

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They could make the existing maps available in an app though.

Here's one or two ideas off the top of my head.

You put in your starting station and your destination station. The system works out the valid routing points and the combinations of maps you can use, taking into account fares and easements.

It then presents to you the list of map combinations you can use. You then select with combination you'd like to use, if a choice exists that is and then the maps with routing lines appear on your screen. So you wouldn't just be lookibg looking at each routing map in turn but multiple maps at once. Each route would have to be colour coded and you'd have to be able to switch one off or no due to the possibility of overlaps according between maps.

I'm sure that would be doable - I don't have access to the eNRG but last year I had play with just scraping the yellow pages and the map KMLs - so that for a given pair of RP or RPGs you get a set of (composite) maps - don't have time work on it properly unfortunately. [ The fares data you need to find appropriate routeing points is publically available too if you want to have a go.]

Edit:-

Just to be clear - I'm talking about looking up and showing the relevant maps for routes between a pair of stations - that's a much simpler problem than showing permitted routes ( I don't even know how the (dis)easments are encoded.)
 
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Paul Kelly

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The permitted routes don't only consist of mapped routes. You would also need to show all possible routes within 3 miles of the shortest route. This is particularly difficult to show, as although there may be multiple valid deviations possible at one stage of the journey, choosing one of these deviations may reduce the possible deviations allowed at a different stage of the journey (due to more or less of the 3 mile "flex" being used up).
 

Paul Kelly

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Anyone know what aspect was found difficult?
I have no information as to whether there's any truth in this (you may consider it as me starting a rumour), but it's also possible that TOCs didn't want passengers to know what a wide variety of routes are (or were) possible on a normal walk-up ticket, as it would conflict with the agenda to "simplify" fares by reducing the "confusing variety" of options and to introduce increased use of advance fares which tie the passenger to a single route only.
 

John @ home

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Anyone know what aspect was found difficult?
It seems to me that the discussion since this question was asked in post #16 assumes that the National Routeing Guide is a fixed document.

This is far from being the case - see kieron's valued upadates in the thread National Routeing Guide update. The difficulty in producing a useful Routeing Guide app is greatly compounded when the Guide itself changes almost every week.
 

najaB

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The permitted routes don't only consist of mapped routes. You would also need to show all possible routes within 3 miles of the shortest route.
Isn't there also the complication of whose miles you are looking at?
 

najaB

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The difficulty in producing a useful Routeing Guide app is greatly compounded when the Guide itself changes almost every week.
In theory, once you've solved the problem of devising a working algorithm (not a trivial problem!), it's just a case of keeping the source data up to date (another non-trivial problem).
 

hairyhandedfool

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The 1997 paper Routeing Guide had 27 maps. By 2011 the number of maps had increased to 125. The current version has 352 !

That may have something to do with it.

Another potential issue is that, back in 1996 there was a Routeing Guide, it was definitively the Routeing Guide. The journey planners of today use 'their version' of the Routeing Guide, whilst the .pdf format Routeing Guide, which replaced the 1996 paper version, is also 'a version' of the Routeing Guide which contains 'written versions' of the easement codes that are pumped into the online journey planners to make them work as planned and thus can be confusing or just not make sense. All of this means there are multiple interpretations of something which relatively few people can actually see these days.... The Definitive Routing Guide....

....You put in your starting station and your destination station. The system works out the valid routing points and the combinations of maps you can use, taking into account fares and easements.

It then presents to you the list of map combinations you can use. You then select with combination you'd like to use, if a choice exists that is and then the maps with routing lines appear on your screen. So you wouldn't just be lookibg looking at each routing map in turn but multiple maps at once.....

I actually like that idea, maybe each map is a different colour so you know where one ends and another begins. This could possibly be done with each map being a 'layer image' over a map of Great Britain, meaning you'd only have to program the app to apply certain layers, rather than compose a new map for each journey. Of course, the biggest problem with this is 'Easements'.

....Each route would have to be colour coded and you'd have to be able to switch one off or no due to the possibility of overlaps according between maps...

I think it would be better to offer the various maps combinations to select before the map is shown. Less confusion that way I think.

....Perhaps they could even allow you to trace over the lines using your finger and then determine if your route is valid. That bit might be too complicated so the first idea would be better.

Perhaps someone could explain why my above ideas couldn't be implemented....

Updates, aside form easements, the biggest issue would be changes that ATOC want to make to it, be it the instructions, maps, routes, easements, whatever, every time that changes the app would have to be updated.

....My thinking is that there are two primary asks:
1) To establish whether a particular route is valid
2) To view all possible routes between two points....

The first already exists I think, at least in the form of online Journey Planners, the second is more tricky. Even London-Glasgow isn't exactly 'simple' with six possible starting stations in London.

....If there are a large number of variables and permutations, I would have thought that this would be performed far better by computer.

The computer has to be programmed by someone though, and then it has to be checked for accuracy, and, presumably, accredited by ATOC.

....[ The fares data you need to find appropriate routeing points is publically available too if you want to have a go.]....

The Journey Planners are supposed to take into account fares from April 96 (NFM64) which are not as widely available, though still possible to get.

The permitted routes don't only consist of mapped routes. You would also need to show all possible routes within 3 miles of the shortest route. This is particularly difficult to show, as although there may be multiple valid deviations possible at one stage of the journey, choosing one of these deviations may reduce the possible deviations allowed at a different stage of the journey (due to more or less of the 3 mile "flex" being used up).

On a forum that can't agree what 'the shortest route' actually means, that could be an issue.

Also, whilst direct trains are not strictly permitted routes, they are ways that a ticket can be used which may provide an alternative option.
 

infobleep

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Another potential issue is that, back in 1996 there was a Routeing Guide, it was definitively the Routeing Guide. The journey planners of today use 'their version' of the Routeing Guide, whilst the .pdf format Routeing Guide, which replaced the 1996 paper version, is also 'a version' of the Routeing Guide which contains 'written versions' of the easement codes that are pumped into the online journey planners to make them work as planned and thus can be confusing or just not make sense. All of this means there are multiple interpretations of something which relatively few people can actually see these days.... The Definitive Routing Guide....



I actually like that idea, maybe each map is a different colour so you know where one ends and another begins. This could possibly be done with each map being a 'layer image' over a map of Great Britain, meaning you'd only have to program the app to apply certain layers, rather than compose a new map for each journey. Of course, the biggest problem with this is 'Easements'.



I think it would be better to offer the various maps combinations to select before the map is shown. Less confusion that way I think.



Updates, aside form easements, the biggest issue would be changes that ATOC want to make to it, be it the instructions, maps, routes, easements, whatever, every time that changes the app would have to be updated.



The first already exists I think, at least in the form of online Journey Planners, the second is more tricky. Even London-Glasgow isn't exactly 'simple' with six possible starting stations in London.



The computer has to be programmed by someone though, and then it has to be checked for accuracy, and, presumably, accredited by ATOC.



The Journey Planners are supposed to take into account fares from April 96 (NFM64) which are not as widely available, though still possible to get.



On a forum that can't agree what 'the shortest route' actually means, that could be an issue.

Also, whilst direct trains are not strictly permitted routes, they are ways that a ticket can be used which may provide an alternative option.

Perhaps the instructions could be in XML format and of an open source data type that computer programs and smartphone apps could read and understand. So if something changes, they understand the latest changes. I'm thinking outloud here.
 
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