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Drunkenness / Alcohol consumption policy?

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Loop & Link

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Twice in recent weeks I have experienced alcohol linked anti social behaviour on local trains run by Northern Railway Company.

In the 1st incident a middle aged drunk got up from his seat and vomited in front of the doors for about 5 minutes and went back and sat down as if nothing had happened. With the movement of the train the slurry of vomit slowly spread itself across the door spaces and down the aisle. No sign of a conductor for whole journey though there was one in the rear cabin (I was in the front section of the front carriage of 3). I phoned Northern to complain that the conductor hadn't done his job, and what were they going to do about the incident as presumably the incident/culprit was caught on the train or station cctv which there are signs to say is there for passenger safety, and what is their policy in such situations. Their response was a) 'maybe he was ill" -which doesn't make any sense as the toilet was just as near as the door, b) I should have drawn staff's attention to it-which I couldn't do without distracting the driver or pulling the emergency cord, and c) "I don't know if the train cctv was working or if it was how it operates". Dissatisfied and furious i wrote to Northern and got a response that told me all about their cleaning regime but ignoring the main issues I had raised.

Imagine if the conductor had got involved, saw this and refused to take the train further as a result.

We would then have you making a thread with you disgusted, angry that you were kicked off a train because the train was unfit for service

So either way, no matter what the conductor does, the TOC and or conductor can't win in this situation.
 
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Mugby

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Imagine if the conductor had got involved, saw this and refused to take the train further as a result.

We would then have you making a thread with you disgusted, angry that you were kicked off a train because the train was unfit for service

So either way, no matter what the conductor does, the TOC and or conductor can't win in this situation.

Exactly.

It the person had been travelling any distance, the conductor could perhaps have requested police to meet but would they have had the resources or even the inclination to attend?

If the person had been identified on cctv, what would you do, note the station he alighted at and search the area? Probably not!

We are a nation of pigs, you just have to accept it!
 

tsr

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I must say BestWestern is getting it closest to my opinions on the subject. It's important for customer-facing crew, be they conductors/guards/TMs/revenue staff to patrol trains at any time of day, and it's important that issues such as vomit on doors don't get worse. I hate to be a "grass" but sometimes you have to hope that passengers take the time to comment on whether or not certain colleagues are providing the necessary presence. Some TOCs, some depots and certainly some individuals are better than others. Best practice is what needs to be identified.

Vomit and other bodily fluids are tricky things to assess. Whether it's fire escape routes, problems with them getting in door mechanisms, seating capacity, or an inability to get to individual door locking equipment necessitating a full-blown cancellation, or many more factors, each situation varies hugely and likewise the actions involved. I do agree that somebody at any given TOC involved needs to take charge, and somebody patrolling the train is best.

What I would add is that some trains are very hard to patrol due to the absence of equipment such as door controls, or station dispatch positions. It's always the way that the train which needs most patrolling, or is least able to cope with drunk people on a weekend night, is also the one which requires the guard/conductor to head to their back cab every few minutes because nobody's bothered to fit saloon controls.

In my time so far on the railway, there've been plenty of trains I'd have liked to see patrolled better and many of my colleagues think likewise. Sometimes the technology isn't there yet. There are other remedies - some stock does let conductors view CCTV in real-time, for example - but very few of them are universally available across the network.

Lastly, when patrols of trains can happen, uniform doesn't have to be a red rag. Yes, you are the most visible person, and yes, someone will invent a song based on your name badge. But with decent customer interaction skills, almost anything can be turned around to gaining co-operation. You're railway staff and issued with a big bunch of keys, on the top of which I put a big bottle opener (not for my own use, of course...). You see a PA system, I see that if the train's delayed I can get people to go for a walk and come and have a chat by telling them where I am. Big orange bag? Pop a cheap phone charger in there and you'll even get faredodgers co-operating when they need to text whoever it is from Random Suburb of Kent. You get the picture. Then when you need to get co-operation, it's all there waiting. There'll be a lot of noise and "oh, mate, REALLY?", but it'll happen.

I don't expect conductors/guards or anyone else to put up with anything which causes them a health hazard, nor serious attempts at crime. I've cancelled trains because conditions were unsanitary and I've never tried to clean up vast pools of vomit (etc.) without the right equipment. It's asking for trouble and it'll only make people more likely to get residue of it smeared on them by mistake, anyway. However, I will always try to work around it and always try to create conditions where people instinctively don't mind being a friend rather than an enemy. Some folks will always try to defraud or vandalise the railway and I have no time for that, at all, ever, but if it's been a heavy night out then you need to be there to cope with it, and there to help passengers cope.

Regarding the complaint, I'd love these things to be easier to sort out. Next time, try flagging down the guard when they step onto the platform, use the BTP text number if you can't, and if the train has stickers with a "Customers can report such-and-such faults" scheme, use that too (where I'm based, that goes straight to the roving fitters). If the doors are obstructed you may wish to use the alarm, but try to speak to staff first in any way possible. Never try to calm down disorderly people without the right training either. It's not worth the risks.
 
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bramling

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Twice in recent weeks I have experienced alcohol linked anti social behaviour on local trains run by Northern Railway Company.

In the 1st incident a middle aged drunk got up from his seat and vomited in front of the doors for about 5 minutes and went back and sat down as if nothing had happened. With the movement of the train the slurry of vomit slowly spread itself across the door spaces and down the aisle. No sign of a conductor for whole journey though there was one in the rear cabin (I was in the front section of the front carriage of 3). I phoned Northern to complain that the conductor hadn't done his job, and what were they going to do about the incident as presumably the incident/culprit was caught on the train or station cctv which there are signs to say is there for passenger safety, and what is their policy in such situations. Their response was a) 'maybe he was ill" -which doesn't make any sense as the toilet was just as near as the door, b) I should have drawn staff's attention to it-which I couldn't do without distracting the driver or pulling the emergency cord, and c) "I don't know if the train cctv was working or if it was how it operates". Dissatisfied and furious i wrote to Northern and got a response that told me all about their cleaning regime but ignoring the main issues I had raised.

In the 2nd incident I boarded in the rear and a group of noisy youths with pint glasses and bottles of booze blocked the aisle so I had to exit one door and come in another to get a seat. The conductor 'had words' with them but they kept their drinks and I got abuse from them simply because I had turned to look so I moved carriages and had a very uncomfortable journey wondering if I might suffer physical abuse.

Is there a general policy / regulation about such incidents ?

Welcome to Britain.

You should take a ride on the Night Tube in London. Vomit and worse everywhere. As someone else posted, welcome to a nation of pigs.
 

kuepper

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Imagine if the conductor had got involved, saw this and refused to take the train further as a result.

We would then have you making a thread with you disgusted, angry that you were kicked off a train because the train was unfit for service

So either way, no matter what the conductor does, the TOC and or conductor can't win in this situation.

I assume youre talking about the first incident.The train was fit for service so your scenario didn't exist, only one carriage was unclean. The conductor should have been checking no drunks came on in the first place, and when the vomiting was discovered he should have told the bloke to get off himself or phoned for the police to get him off at the next station.
 

kuepper

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Exactly.

It the person had been travelling any distance, the conductor could perhaps have requested police to meet but would they have had the resources or even the inclination to attend? -

If the person had been identified on cctv, what would you do, note the station he alighted at and search the area? Probably not!

We are a nation of pigs, you just have to accept it!

as the conductor didn't even walk down the train to discover the vomit we'll never know what he'd have done. If the culprit is on cctv his photo could be displayed in the station he alighted and distributed to staff operating on the route to id him.
 

bramling

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I assume youre talking about the first incident.The train was fit for service so your scenario didn't exist, only one carriage was unclean. The conductor should have been checking no drunks came on in the first place, and when the vomiting was discovered he should have told the bloke to get off himself or phoned for the police to get him off at the next station.

In a perfect world, maybe.

Back in the real world, what do you propose should happen when:

1) the person refuses to alight

which is then followed by

2) the Police aren't interested.

Like it or not, this is the reality.

You can add in a few extras too, like what do you do if the person you are trying to kick off is underage or is a young female?
 

bb21

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The conductor should have been checking no drunks came on in the first place,

Completely unenforceable without police backup.

and when the vomiting was discovered he should have told the bloke to get off himself

We had one only the other day. Prat headbutted the guard as a result. Train cancelled. Punters waited in the cold for the next train 30 minutes later as taxis were gonna take longer to be organised.

or phoned for the police to get him off at the next station.

... assuming police would be able to respond that quickly, or indeed as someone else pointed out, interested at all, in what is essentially a matter about vomit.

I agree with what you said about staff presence, but apart from that, not a lot else.
 

Bantamzen

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These late night scenarios are tricky for guards. Yes they probably should at least keep an eye on the carriages, even if it is just a cursory walk up and down the train to check that nothing like this has happened (as opposed to a full ticket check). However as we sadly read on here time and again, guards do get abused verbally and physically and so you can't blame them for being human and wanting to stay away from any potential confrontations. What's worse for the late night passenger, having to put up with bodily fluids such as vomit, or the guard being attacked, train then cancelled and a potentially long wait for the next service or taxi replacement?

Others have suggested that in these cases passengers try to alert the guard, BTP by text on 61016, or try to contact the TOC directly (Northern do have a function on their smartphone app to report issues). Most of these can be done discreetly without alerting the people causing the issue to take issue with you.

Trains really ought to have the ability for the driver / guard to view the CCTV in the cabs for situations like this. I don't know if new stock does / will have this ability, but it would be useful. However given that there are an estimated 5 million CCTV cameras in the UK (although this is only an estimate, it is probably much higher), there is no way that they could all be constantly watched (even though some tabloids like to claim there is an "army" of people monitoring our every move). So the cameras for the most part are there to try and deter problems, and record evidence when they do.

As for the wider issue of drunks on trains, it is worth noting whilst it can be unpleasant when some get aggressive or cause issues, most people who have been out for the night will go home by train without issue. TOCs can opt for a no open drinks on-board services, but it would be nigh on impossible to stop people using services after they had a few drinks. More staffed stations might help, stopping the most obviously too drunk from even boarding, but again the reality is that is impracticable.

Common sense is the key here. In the case that the OP witnessed, someone should really alert the guard, even if it means having to pass over the vomit. Even if a guard has been conducting checks, they are not going to spend all the journey heading up and down the train. So let them know wherever possible as soon as possible. And where it isn't possible or may present a risk, let the TOC and / or BTP know. Even though BTP may not directly act, they will seek to alert the TOC who in turn will try to alert the guard so that they can make an assessment of the situation.
 

curtly

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Really hate pxssheads on trains. Really more should be done to tackle this. I remonstrated with some guy who made a quip about my weight. I asked him if we could continue this conversation when the train stops and the pratt just backed off. To say it isn`t a priority is nonsense. It is a criminal act because you feel threatened by their behaviour hence why staff often choose to not get involved. Staff need to be protected from these bottom wipes. To tell the truth I`d have made the guy drink it.


You say that people feel threatened by drunks (a word that I detest) then go on to say how you have previously offered to continue a discussion when 'the train stops'. Now who is the person giving threats out?

People get drunk all the time. From all walks of life. Some are loud. Those that are disorderly are dealt with by the law. None of what the op has stated is anti social behaviour. The train should have been cleaned yes. But the guard didn't know about it. So he couldn't.
 

Bromley boy

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The train should have been cleaned yes. But the guard didn't know about it. So he couldn't.

The guard doesn't double up as a train cleaner, though, and there's no cleaning equipment carried on board.

The options at that point would be to either leave it alone, lock the affected carriage out of use or take the train out of service, kick everyone off and move it to a depot where it could be cleaned.

Leaving it alone is probably a sensible approach in the short term. People can easily move away from the affected area and into other coaches. Yes it's a potential health hazard but only if people start rolling around in it or licking it up.

Trains certainly can be cancelled for these kinds of situations. I'm aware of a DOO two coach train which had to be taken out of service for cleaning recently because someone had defacated in one of the carriages (even though there was a perfectly serviceable toilet in the next coach).
 
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gimmea50anyday

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Metro newspapers prove their worth in some situations.....

There are some things we can reasonably not be expected to clean up, however we still need to know about so that a. the situation can be made safe, and b. arrangements can be made to get cleaners on to the train.

If people tell us that is.......
 

Darandio

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At one time in the past, was there not a bucket of sand carried on the train for dealing with such examples of vomit?

Most likely, but at some point it will have been classed as dangerous and could have been used as a weapon. Or too many kids couldn't wait until they got to the seaside before making the sandcastles.......
 

BestWestern

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I assume youre talking about the first incident.The train was fit for service so your scenario didn't exist, only one carriage was unclean. The conductor should have been checking no drunks came on in the first place, and when the vomiting was discovered he should have told the bloke to get off himself or phoned for the police to get him off at the next station.

You can't police who boards a train, sadly. As for kicking the offending individual off, this is where the dreaded 'Duty of Care' rears its head. You cannot dump a passenger, particularly one who is clearly in an intoxicated and generally unfit state, at any old station in the middle of nowhere. If they come to any harm, the Guard will be held liable, having placed them in the situation. If a person is to be ejected, it needs to be at a manned station where appropriate supervision is available.

That Duty of Care also extends, however, to the other passengers. Seeing as a pile of bodily fluids is a health hazard, for a variety of reasons, it needs to be dealt with. Just leaving it where it is, pooled on the floor and smeared all over the fixtures and fittings, is not an acceptable response. If somebody were to come into contact with it and contract something unpleasant, or somebody were to slip in it, the TOC would be entirely liable. Hence, the Guard needs to isolate the affected area and keep people out of harm's way. That doesn't have to mean taking the whole train out of service, but it could well mean the affected carriage is locked up.
 

Juniper Driver

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That's a safety issue though chap, it's a biohazard.

A cruicial pillar, if you will, of ensuring the safety of the train, is patrolling it at regular intervals to identify problems. There is only so much 'safety' you can do from the back cab! Loads of services are a ballache when there a drunken muppets about, it's very rarely an excuse to avoid entering the saloons. Intervention doesn't have to mean giving someone a talking to, "Are you okay there chap" is a helpful sort of approach when somebody is clearly unwell, even if they are clearly a drunken moron. If it escalates, then you act accordingly of course.

Are you a guard then? You seem to know a lot about the job.I could just imagine this on a D.O.O train.It'd be a bundle of laughs.(not)
 
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gimmea50anyday

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Duty of care. Quite.

Had a wheelchair user board at Middlesbrough. When it came to ticket checks all he had was an immigration card and a south yorkshire concession pass. No ticket no money no understanding (although he spoke wery good englisch). Well of course I wanted to chuck him off at Yarm (I wouldnt have anyway, thats beside the point) but I would have been villified for failing in duty of care, so instead he got a free ride all the way to Sheffield! Kind of wonder why we bother collecting fares.....
 

DarloRich

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Duty of care. Quite.

Had a wheelchair user board at Middlesbrough. When it came to ticket checks all he had was an immigration card and a south yorkshire concession pass. No ticket no money no understanding (although he spoke wery good englisch). Well of course I wanted to chuck him off at Yarm (I wouldnt have anyway, thats beside the point) but I would have been villified for failing in duty of care, so instead he got a free ride all the way to Sheffield! Kind of wonder why we bother collecting fares.....

should have put him off at Northallerton - the tutting would have shamed him into leaving asap ;)
 

whoosh

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.....when the vomiting was discovered he should have told the bloke to get off himself or phoned for the police to get him off at the next station.


If the culprit is on cctv his photo could be displayed in the station he alighted and distributed to staff operating on the route to id him.






The police???!!!

The police should remove the person from the train?



So someone who's thrown up is a 999 call now is it?

If 'Yes' - you're an idiot who needs to get their priorities sorted out.
If 'No' - then the police are extremely unlikely to attend due to dealing with other things - you know, like 999 calls.


"Take a still from the CCTV and distribute it to station staff."
Are you a wind up merchant?
Missing vulnerable people, yes. Serious dangerous criminals, yes. But how are you going to pick those out of a crowded wall, papered with pictures of drunken vomiters? How much time do you think the railway has got to go trawling through CCTV to find a good image, distribute it to stations, print it off. And then what? What if they are spotted? What's going to happen? "You threw up on one of our trains."

"Did I? So what?"

Ridiculous.
 
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Bromley boy

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Just leaving it where it is, pooled on the floor and smeared all over the fixtures and fittings, is not an acceptable response.

This is precisely the "response" it would get on a DOO service, at least until the train reached a location with cleaners or where staff could be alerted to lock the carriage out.
 

takno

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That's a little harsh. A nation with pigs maybe, but I for one have never vomited in a public area.

Lucky you! Personally I've spent most of a sleeper journey from Fort William to Edinburgh vomiting. I wasn't drunk at all, although I'm not sure that staggering about with sunstroke looks significantly different, and sunstroke certainly isn't something that you'd expect and look out for in the west Highlands. Either way it would have been irresponsible bordering on the criminal to throw me off onto a cold unstaffed station in the middle of nowhere to sleep it off for the next 10-12 hours.

While I've obviously seen people vomit through drink, I'd say I've far more often seen people reacting badly to food, or underestimating how ill they were on leaving the house, or getting sick at work, or having a panic attack. In all those circumstances there is always some tutting cretin in the corner working themselves up into a self-righteous lather about how it's all caused by drink.
 

najaB

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Lucky you! Personally I've spent most of a sleeper journey from Fort William to Edinburgh vomiting.
And I'm quite sure you did the responsible thing - headed for the loo and/or tried your best to make as little mess as possible.

Again, not behaviour you'd expect in a 'nation of pigs'.
 

takno

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And I'm quite sure you did the responsible thing - headed for the loo and/or tried your best to make as little mess as possible.

Again, not behaviour you'd expect in a 'nation of pigs'.

I did, although I initially headed to the droplight for a spot of fresh air, with inevitable results. In that sense you can see how somebody throwing up over the doors may have been trying to be clean, even if they actually managed to make more of a mess than if they'd just stayed sitting down. I agree we're not a nation of pigs, I'm just suggesting that very few of us are, and that people are a bit too keen to class other people as vermin because their uplanned actions ended up being unpleasant to them.
 

Master29

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You say that people feel threatened by drunks (a word that I detest) then go on to say how you have previously offered to continue a discussion when 'the train stops'. Now who is the person giving threats out?

People get drunk all the time. From all walks of life. Some are loud. Those that are disorderly are dealt with by the law. None of what the op has stated is anti social behaviour. The train should have been cleaned yes. But the guard didn't know about it. So he couldn't.


So, What`s your point exactly. How does any of this this excuse his behaviour?
 

johntea

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There was a bunch of drunks on a Manchester Victoria to Leeds service that I was on over the weekend. Most of them calmed down but of course one of them ended up having an altercation with another passenger over drunken insults to each other :roll:

The guard didn't say anything but you could tell he was trying to prevent emerging situations by standing in the carriage for a bit although obviously couldn't do that the whole journey...

...but I think Mike Tyson got a bit of a shock when the BTP were waiting for him upon arrival at Halifax :lol:

Which reminds me to ask actually, is there any permanent BTP presence at Bradford Interchange? The guard asked my friend to give a quick statement just if he came across any as he saw some of the incident take place but he didn't see anyone or an obvious office there.

Luckily it was a 158 unit so plenty of CCTV anyway not that I'm expecting he'll end up getting much more than a slapped wrist mind!
 

fowler9

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The police???!!!

The police should remove the person from the train?



So someone who's thrown up is a 999 call now is it?

If 'Yes' - you're an idiot who needs to get their priorities sorted out.
If 'No' - then the police are extremely unlikely to attend due to dealing with other things - you know, like 999 calls.


"Take a still from the CCTV and distribute it to station staff."
Are you a wind up merchant?
Missing vulnerable people, yes. Serious dangerous criminals, yes. But how are you going to pick those out of a crowded wall, papered with pictures of drunken vomiters? How much time do you think the railway has got to go trawling through CCTV to find a good image, distribute it to stations, print it off. And then what? What if they are spotted? What's going to happen? "You threw up on one of our trains."

"Did I? So what?"

Ridiculous.

Drunk and disorderly. I've seen people nicked for less.
 
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