GN are responsible for the continued existence of the evening peak restriction that is causing the issue.
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Kings Cross frustration
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But it is not GN staff that gave the incorrect interpretation of that restriction so again they have nothing directly to do with this incident.
I agree. It is another train company's staff not understanding a GN restriction (a restriction GN staff also have difficulty in understanding).
Doesn't the fact rail staff, whichever company they work for, have difficulty understanding GN's restriction have something to do with GN?
Quite. Rail ticketing is complex but I don't have a massive issue with that. What I do have an issue with is staff who point blank refuse to double check and look something up. It isn't difficult to do that.
No. The restriction isn't particularly complex so the fault lies with the person who didn't look it up.
bb21
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Erm, no, because the restrictions are not complicated for that fare.
When in a hole, stop digging.
This is the restriction code text in full:
I honestly do not know how GN could make that restriction simpler to understand for the benefit of their staff, passengers and VTEC staff!
Agree it's clear, but would "Not valid on trains timed to depart between 0430 and 0929" be even clearer?
I just feel slightly uneasy reading restriction text that actually includes a time for which the ticket would be valid. Ie: A B1 ticket is valid on an 0429 departure and on an 0930 departure. For programmers like me it's the difference between > and >=.
I just feel slightly uneasy reading restriction text that actually includes a time for which the ticket would be valid. Ie: A B1 ticket is valid on an 0429 departure and on an 0930 departure. For programmers like me it's the difference between > and >=.
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CheapAndNerdy
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You would need to add "inclusive" to make it unambiguously clear that the bounds are included in the restriction interval. After 04:29 quite clearly does not include 04:29 and before 09:30 does not include 09:30.
'I want to get my place on the platform ready (four hours early)'
Joe Paxton
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Here's the webpage on the TLGN site detailing off-peak restrictions, and this is what they say about evening use:
Unfortunately it has nowt to say about tickets with an origin of London, for which these restrictions don't apply.
Which there is most of the time. 7 Hull Trains departures and 9 Grand Central M-F. = Barriers a complete waste of time and money.
How can GTR say 'Off-Peak tickets from London cant be used on northbound services during the evening peak times (between 16:30 and 19:01).' when so many tickets ARE valid.
This is of course the problem we had once, and missed TWO trains, because a member of staff for EC wouldn't let us through the upstairs gates (the bridge). The ticket was rejected (most likely due to being Gold Card discounted) so the seek assistance convinced him it wasn't valid at that time.
I ended up saying I'd get someone else to show his mistake, went downstairs and brought back a FCC staff member, but the gates were then open and he'd gone. All in the space of a few minutes! Apparently not the first time this had happened, meaning he most likely knew he was wrong but wouldn't back down.
If I hadn't been with someone who wasn't able bodied, we'd have been able to rush down and in via the front of the station to the platform to at least get the second train (around 5-6 minutes later).
I am disappointed the problems still occur, but it doesn't help if anything fails to explain that the evening peak doesn't apply to all tickets and so codes need to be checked. I would hope we don't see KGX ending up like the problems at Paddington.
If GTR gets rid of staff in favour of more agency staff with little to no training, there's nothing to say there won't be the same problems for trains on platforms 9-11.
This is of course the problem we had once, and missed TWO trains, because a member of staff for EC wouldn't let us through the upstairs gates (the bridge). The ticket was rejected (most likely due to being Gold Card discounted) so the seek assistance convinced him it wasn't valid at that time.
I ended up saying I'd get someone else to show his mistake, went downstairs and brought back a FCC staff member, but the gates were then open and he'd gone. All in the space of a few minutes! Apparently not the first time this had happened, meaning he most likely knew he was wrong but wouldn't back down.
If I hadn't been with someone who wasn't able bodied, we'd have been able to rush down and in via the front of the station to the platform to at least get the second train (around 5-6 minutes later).
I am disappointed the problems still occur, but it doesn't help if anything fails to explain that the evening peak doesn't apply to all tickets and so codes need to be checked. I would hope we don't see KGX ending up like the problems at Paddington.
If GTR gets rid of staff in favour of more agency staff with little to no training, there's nothing to say there won't be the same problems for trains on platforms 9-11.
Sweeping statements which are incorrect are not uncommon, and it's a big problem in the rail industry. I do not see this being solved anytime soon, unless the ORR starts threatening enforcement action.
I witnessed VTEC staff at Kings Cross falsely claim a fare wasn't valid, refuse to look the restriction up because they claimed they already had them memorised, and also claimed that the restriction was encoded in the magnetic stripe and the barrier knows which fares are valid and which are not. The restriction code was easy to understand. The general principle of looking up each restriction code to determine if a fare is valid or not is easy to understand. I do not expect staff to memorise every restriction code. If unsure, look it up. If unable to look it up, accept it. Easy.
Such behaviour is unusual for VTEC; I've only experienced it at King's Cross and I've certainly never encountered on-board staff who have behaved in this manner. Poor attitude does seem rather more prevalent in the London area than elsewhere, for whatever reason.
bb21
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DfT.
ORR won't be interested.
I know DfT gets a lot of flack on this forum, but they do come down very heavily on TOCs for breaches of franchise terms. They almost certainly won't act on one or two complaints, but if a sufficient number were received...
So why have I seen a GN RPI have to sheepishly leave a carriage to the sound of laughter when they had to admit they didn't understand it.
I agree, stop digging.
Clutching at straws now.
bb21
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I suspect any RPI confused by that restriction also has L and R written on their shoes so that they don't get them mixed up!
I do find it frustrating if a gate has any problem reading a ticket, some staff will instantly think the ticket isn't valid (likewise, some will wave people through when it WAS invalid!).
It's the same when I had problems with a carnet. Some gates wouldn't read them, so naturally a carnet saying 'seek assistance' would trigger suspicion. Staff rarely, if ever, check the numeric error code.
In fact, I've made a point of checking and telling them the code and very few know what they are, or how to look them up.
Railcards and off peak tickets at King's Cross are clearly a problem if they've set the gates to stop those people.
It's the same when I had problems with a carnet. Some gates wouldn't read them, so naturally a carnet saying 'seek assistance' would trigger suspicion. Staff rarely, if ever, check the numeric error code.
In fact, I've made a point of checking and telling them the code and very few know what they are, or how to look them up.
Railcards and off peak tickets at King's Cross are clearly a problem if they've set the gates to stop those people.
The relevance is, as I said before, if GN staff who are trained to understand GN restrictions have problems with them, it is not surprising others also have problems.
Again, that restriction is possibly one of the simplest that exists. Perhaps you could share one of the impossibly complex restrictions you are talking about.
bb21
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Please tell me what you consider to be a simple restriction.
I don't doubt that GTR (Great Northern) staff have difficulties in this area but the restriction code in question is not difficult to comprehend, so you can't blame GTR for that.
I have no idea what you are talking about. Where have I mentioned "impossibly complex restrictions".
Everyone seems to believe GNs restrictions are not complicated.
My observation was if some of GN's own RPIs don't understand these (simple) restrictions why would it be a surprise that another company's staff also don't understand these (simple) restrictions.
So what do you suggest GN do about it?
Failed Unit
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I must admit Carnets are frustrating. I get error code 9 a lot a kingscross. RPI tells me they are all blocked because of fraud. Examines ticket and off I go. The evil eyes behinds as you delay others going through. Why can't they put the things on the key? That way when you swipe in it validates and if you fail to swipe in you are bang to rights for a penalty fare.
Moorgate just wave you through (I show them the date) old street in the morning has no checks. (Ironically oyster uses slowed as the need to check if the machine read it)
Because they aren't - at least this one isn't:
What is complex about that? So if you've seen RPI's puzzled it must've been something else that was puzzling them.
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