Arriva Rail North DOO

[BestWestern]

You can also have a rare occasion where you have a guard who very much wants to do a ticket inspection. Pacing down the 319 at quite an astonishing speed, because of that the train is not late unless it gets regulated.
But then you have guards who will do a check but after often lethargic in getting back to open the doors and as a result the train is late getting a way from stations.
Then you have the vast majority who won't leave the cab...
Sam

Far better management is desperately needed, by the sound of things.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Far better management is desperately needed, by the sound of things.

Not helped by everything still being on Sprinter schedules.
Plenty of standing outside Lime St waiting for a platform too.

 

[Carlisle]

In all the previous schemes it was never proposed to have a second person.

That's true although WAGN did introduce on train Hosts and evening security guards in the late 1990s on quite a number of their trains for a while

 

[ComUtoR]

The value of a second crew member can never be quantified. As a Driver. It's the things they do, that cannot be measured is what I value the most.

 

[northwichcat]

The 319s already have door controls throughout. Ticket checks are pretty rare on the Airport shuttle. Almost every single one all day is late by the time it reaches Heald Green or Mauldeth Road.

Admittedly the guard will probably not be able to do much to get the scum to actually pay, and the majority or honest customers probably would use machines for afternoons if Northern could be bothered to provide them. Nonetheless the route is operated with guards and had lots of control panels, but has pretty rubbish staff presence and terrible punctuality.

The Airport-Piccadilly shuttle was the one Northern risked using 319s on, despite knowing they can't run to 323 timings, so they could free up a 323 for the morning peak Macclesfield service and evening peak Hazel Grove to free up 2 x 142s in response to the DMU shortage created by Chiltern taking the TPE 170s.

 

[northwichcat]

The value of a second crew member can never be quantified. As a Driver. It's the things they do, that cannot be measured is what I value the most.

Personally I think it would be constructive for the RMT to demand the second person of staff has some of the safety training which a guard has. However, I imagine they are just going to keep demanding all services have guards and they do the door duties and finish up (eventually) losing the fight.

On another forum someone said the RMT will wave the white flag in the Southern dispute imminently and want to use the Northern franchise as their next political football because they know Arriva are months off coming up with their DCO proposals so are in a weak position to fight back, whereas Merseyrail have a full proposal to move to 100% DOO so are in a much stronger position.

 

[northwichcat]

The press release states that they said they couldn't guarantee this as well as not guaranteeing the safety critical nature of the role on all trains. I imagine that ARN want a similar situation to GTR, i.e. that a DCO train can depart without a second member of staff in some circumstances, which is not what RMT want. What ARN specifically said previously I don't know, so whether they have actually reneged is unclear to me.

I understand DfT would penalise Arriva for running a service with just a driver but the penalty would be less than the penalty for a cancellation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Admittedly the guard will probably not be able to do much to get the scum to actually pay, and the majority or honest customers probably would use machines for afternoons if Northern could be bothered to provide them. Nonetheless the route is operated with guards and had lots of control panels, but has pretty rubbish staff presence and terrible punctuality.

Why has this changed? As a kid in fNW-land, the Guard would always, always do tickets, unless he physically couldn't get out of the cab or his machine was broken.

 

[Starmill]

The Airport-Piccadilly shuttle was the one Northern risked using 319s on, despite knowing they can't run to 323 timings, so they could free up a 323 for the morning peak Macclesfield service and evening peak Hazel Grove to free up 2 x 142s in response to the DMU shortage created by Chiltern taking the TPE 170s.

So I have heard. Recently a pair of 156 were drafted in to work it due to a 323 failure, and they managed to keep to time slightly better than the 319 does! The 323 shuffle was a clever bit of thinking. Unfortunately it now needs a long-term solution.

 

[Starmill]

Why has this changed? As a kid in fNW-land, the Guard would always, always do tickets, unless he physically couldn't get out of the cab or his machine was broken.

Presumably its got something to do with quite a large number of ticketless passengers and what seems to have been an increase in unpleasant behaviour on trains and stations in South Manchester these past few years. Combine that with the stopping nature of the train, the lenght of time it now takes to process a card payment and possibly some low company morale. Things seem to go have gone through warmer and cooler periods. It could also be the case that things are slightly better at Wigan or Victoria than Piccadilly.

 

[Starmill]

That's mostly down to regulation through the Castlefield corridor.
Often stands at Ordsall Lane, and then again at Deansgate/Oxford Road, on a very slack schedule.
It also runs just behind the ATW both ways, and suffers as a result.
Guards check tickets on the Wigan route regularly, but you don't see them west of St Helens much.

I have always thought the Manchester Airport - Liverpool Lime Street service seems to have a slightly better staff presence actually. I was talking about the Manchester Piccadilly - Manchester Airport shuttle hah.

 

[Bungle965]

Presumably its got something to do with quite a large number of ticketless passengers and what seems to have been an increase in unpleasant behaviour on trains and stations in South Manchester these past few years. Combine that with the stopping nature of the train, the lenght of time it now takes to process a card payment and possibly some low company morale. Things seem to go have gone through warmer and cooler periods. It could also be the case that things are slightly better at Wigan or Victoria than Piccadilly.

The machine that northern equip their guards with for use with STAR mobile has to be quicker than trying to get a card payment through Thyron not to mention the new machines accept contactless which will can also quicken up card transactions.
Sam

 

[Starmill]

It will probably take more than a couple of months of frequently broken ticket machines to change the culture which has been built up over decades.

It ought to be a moot point one way or the other. Why should the guard need to sell tickes to all of these people? Why not go with the radical idea of installing a ticket machine? Or even (gasp) have two shifts in the booking office.

 

[northwichcat]

It will probably take more than a couple of months of frequently broken ticket machines to change the culture which has been built up over decades.

It ought to be a moot point one way or the other. Why should the guard need to sell tickes to all of these people? Why not go with the radical idea of installing a ticket machine? Or even (gasp) have two shifts in the booking office.

But not a Parkeon TVM. They break frequently and Northern don't seem to rush round to fix the broken ones.

 

[Starmill]

I think we both know we are in agreement on that Mr Collins!!!

 

[Bungle965]

But not a Parkeon TVM. They break frequently and Northern don't seem to rush round to fix the broken ones.

They like to take themselves out of service as well. I remember a particular occasion of using one where I was trying to do a ToD, but I must have pulled the card out too fast so it decided to do something perfectly rational and take itself out of service.
Never had the problem with any other companies Parkeon machines however.
Sam

 

[ANorthernGuard]

The Ballot papers arrived, filled in and sent back and yes it was a hard decision but I, like the majority cannot see any other way. If it does go to strike I will apologise to people inconvenienced but I feel I am doing the right thing. I just hope that a strong Yes for strike vote will show the feelings of the People involved.

 

[Carlisle]

The Ballot papers arrived, filled in and sent back and yes it was a hard decision but I, like the majority cannot see any other way. If it does go to strike I will apologise to people inconvenienced but I feel I am doing the right thing. I just hope that a strong Yes for strike vote will show the feelings of the People involved.

If northern have already guaranteed your salary and given assurances on no compulsory redundancies during the franchise, then public support for your cause won't be huge, however if they've given neither of the above it could be quite considerable

 

[ANorthernGuard]

If northern have already guaranteed your salary and given assurances on no compulsory redundancies during the franchise, then public support for your cause won't be huge, however if they've given neither of the above it could be quite considerable

They 1st gave assurances then suddenly that changed to "we don't know". To be honest I don't expect support and it wouldn't change the majority of Train Crews minds. There are a lot of differences between this and the GTR dispute that the public won't see. Our infrastructure is ancient in a lot of places and so is our stock. If they had come out with a genuine view of what they would want to happen then maybe things could be different but we get the feeling that the Directors are hoping we will just accept whatever happens. We would be open to some change (Everyone I know would accept the Scotrail DCO model) (Driver releases, Guard Closes) But just like GTR they seem to think an OBS will work. This could be a long drawn out dispute that nobody wants but we will fight, we have to.

 

[Moonshot]

A lot of the older guys I know would like to take a severance package and pack it in.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

A lot of the older guys I know would like to take a severance package and pack it in.

Same at my depot but I am on about the ones near retirement age

 

[Moonshot]

Same at my depot but I am on about the ones near retirement age

indeed....

One thing i dont know is the proposed roadmap from what the current role is to how it will look in the future. Doesnt seem to be any clarity just yet

 

[northwichcat]

Have they given any updated timescale for DCO from the franchise agreement of 'no later than December 2019'?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I'm at a loss to understand why the dispute is heading for strike action, when the employer has not/can not be specific about its proposals yet.
It feels like the union is getting its retaliation in first, to no useful purpose except to escalate the issue.
It might be a year or more before the TOC can formulate what its plans are.
Nobody's job is going to change in the short term.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

They already know what "Their" Plans are. Do we wait until the new trains are built just for DOO? When do you decide to strike? When do you decide is the right time? The trouble is there isn't one. Personally this strike will draw the line in the sand that is needed. There is no right or wrong way.

 

[Moonshot]

Have they given any updated timescale for DCO from the franchise agreement of 'no later than December 2019'?

Not seen anything internally .....at the moment its business as usual, and indeed there is still a recruitment programme for guards right now. I rather suspect that December 2019 will end up getting pushed back as it has to tie in with infrastructure works anyway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They already know what "Their" Plans are. Do we wait until the new trains are built just for DOO? When do you decide to strike? When do you decide is the right time? The trouble is there isn't one. Personally this strike will draw the line in the sand that is needed. There is no right or wrong way.

As the new trains will be a long time coming, I don't see that the present guards necessarily have a legitimate grievance, as there will likely be no redundancies, just natural wastage.

Is the protection of a grade for potential future employees a valid reason to strike? I think it's slightly questionable. The only thing the present guards need to strike about is to ensure their existing jobs are maintained for as long as they want them - and I see plenty of evidence, unlike on GTR, that they will, simply because most of Northern's stock is not and will not be DOO compatible, and retrofitting DOO equipment would be costly or impossible. For example I don't ever expect to see a DOO Class 150, 153, 156 or 158, nor a 319 on Northern as these used platform equipment down South.

OTOH, drivers may have a valid reason to strike if they do not believe it is safe for them to work DOO trains, as they may end up being rostered to do.

Or do I miss the point? Striking against general company policies that do not affect the individuals being balloted is surely not appropriate?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

As the new trains will be a long time coming, I don't see that the present guards necessarily have a legitimate grievance, as there will likely be no redundancies, just natural wastage.

Is the protection of a grade for potential future employees a valid reason to strike? I think it's slightly questionable. The only thing the present guards need to strike about is to ensure their existing jobs are maintained for as long as they want them - and I see plenty of evidence, unlike on GTR, that they will, simply because most of Northern's stock is not and will not be DOO compatible, and retrofitting DOO equipment would be costly or impossible. For example I don't ever expect to see a DOO Class 150, 153, 156 or 158, nor a 319 on Northern as these used platform equipment down South.

OTOH, drivers may have a valid reason to strike if they do not believe it is safe for them to work DOO trains, as they may end up being rostered to do.

Or do I miss the point? Striking against general company policies that do not affect the individuals being balloted is surely not appropriate?

It's the old Rock and Hard Place. The union want assurances. at the start Arriva were giving out signals about always 2 people on train etc etc.

Then it changed from that to....We Don't know...We Cannot Say.... My personal view is that they will want Northern Connect to be DOO/DCO or whatever term they want to use this week. Mine and a lot of my colleagues/Friends would be happy with the ScotRail Model that was recently agreed BUT it looks like they are going for the GTR Model and that puts fear into everybody.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I've seen many employment situations where future guarantees are impossible - things like takeovers, sell-offs, restructuring and plant closures or rationalisation, also obsolescence and modernisation.
They can go on for years, like the Tata Steel situation today, threats to close car factories or move call centres to India.
But I don't remember any staff action prior to specific proposals being tabled and a timetable being set.
Northern are a long way off being able to do that, so there is no clarity on who will be affected.
So why the industrial action?
Is it just to keep the GTR pot boiling?

 

[LowLevel]

Without committing on merits or otherwise does no one set it as a possible tactical move - IE strike early, cause disruption, cost a load of extra money and stick a dent in the net present value figures so cheerfully produced by the RSSB?

I'm not sure the RMT leadership are that tactically minded but messing up the figures for financial benefits would surely be of some interest?