Class 319 reliability.

[AM9]

The Class 319s have been in service in the Northwest for about two years now. There was much speculation and debate here about their reliability compared with performance on Thameslink duties. Does anybody have factual information about their availability now, them having been deployed through two summers and two winters? How does this compare with:
a) their MKIII contemporaries in the Northwest, e.g. class 150s and 156s
and
b) their continuing service on ac & DC lines in the southeast including new bedded-in services on WCML and SE metals?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

How does the profile of the route(s) that they're run on now compare with their Thameslink days?

 

[AM9]

How does the profile of the route(s) that they're run on now compare with their Thameslink days?

The lines that they are running on are about the same as the BML/MML mostly with 90mph speed limits. The climb out of Lime St is nowhere near as severe as the 1:29s in the core and the rise through to Wigan is not particularly challenging. The WCML stretch is similar to the MML in gradient. They seem to mostly run in singles and passenger loading is nothing like the Thameslink crush.
When they were introduced up there were a lot of failures reported on this forum, some of which were attributable to the 319s themselves which I imagine was down to the maintenance learning curve. Posters here seem to have stopped mentioning every single issue and I was wondering if they have nowbedded-in and failures are now at similar levels as other contemporary stock up there in the northwest.

 

[Bald Rick]

In my nearly 14 years of using them, the most common in service faults I experienced were (in no particular order):

Coupling issues
AC/DC changeover problems (sometimes train, sometimes problem between driver's desk and seat)
Door faults.

The first two won't happen. The third will happen less as I should imagine the doors are cycled less often as loadings are lower.

Therefore I would be astonished if reliability was not better, after the initial familiarisation of the depot engineers.

 

[Emblematic]

When the GTR remedial plan was published, it was noted that the class 319 doors were the biggest problem with the fleet, and this has clearly remained a problem, both with GTR and Northern. Whilst the problems on Northern have received plenty of coverage, the performance on GTR has been far from ideal, however other issues have overshadowed these ongoing problems.
To quote from the remedial plan:

A door system intervention was undertaken by the previous franchisee between May 2014 and September 2014. This was intended to improve the performance of the door system across the fleet. However the work resulted in a much higher failure rate and the underlying door performance worsened.

 

[Elecman]

Must have been a great intervention then if it led to a much worse performance!!

 

[507021]

Considering the amount of times (very many), I've travelled on a 319 over the past couple of years, not one of them has failed. I quite like them personally, although the refresh was quite underwhelming to say the least. I really think Northern's 319 fleet needs to be re-seated with 2+2 style seating and tables, and also fitted proper luggage racks.

Despite all of that, they've increased capacity and decreased journey times, which is always a bonus.

 

[asylumxl]

Must have been a great intervention then if it led to a much worse performance!!

Govia likes to blame everything on FCC .

In all seriousness, I have used TL daily for well over a decade and have experienced very few 319 failures. Perhaps I'm lucky?

 

[AM9]

Considering the amount of times (very many), I've travelled on a 319 over the past couple of years, not one of them has failed. I quite like them personally, although the refresh was quite underwhelming to say the least. I really think Northern's 319 fleet needs to be re-seated with 2+2 style seating and tables, and also fitted proper luggage racks.

Despite all of that, they've increased capacity and decreased journey times, which is always a bonus.

Their ride over chat moss is a bit bouncy but so is that from Hendon to the Elstree tunnels. On the Chat Moss stoppers their much heralded slow acceleration idn't seem to be a problem.
There were posts about how much worse the weather is in Lancashire and that the 'London's cast offs' wouldn't be able to cope. I've not seen any reports of them having particular problems with doors icing up or major wheel damage from slipping on leaves.

 

[notlob.divad]

Despite all of that, they've ... decreased journey times, which is always a bonus.

I agree with everything but the above. I have found almost no change in journey times as the timetable has never been recast with emu timings. Everything still runs to pacer/sprinter timings. And looks likely to continue that way until December.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

As my trains often inter weave and follow 319s I cant say I have seen or read of many failures involving these units. Not more so than before their introduction anyway.

 

[WatcherZero]

Their ride over chat moss is a bit bouncy but so is that from Hendon to the Elstree tunnels. On the Chat Moss stoppers their much heralded slow acceleration idn't seem to be a problem.
There were posts about how much worse the weather is in Lancashire and that the 'London's cast offs' wouldn't be able to cope. I've not seen any reports of them having particular problems with doors icing up or major wheel damage from slipping on leaves.

They did suffer a bit from ice on overheads. A 319 driver also was electrocuted in his cab in July while on Allerton depot while another received a shock testing doors in Feb.

Don't Modern Rail publish fleet reliability tables by operator in their Golden Spanner awards. Someone check Jan modern rail see if they published this years results in full or just highlights.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Don't Modern Rail publish fleet reliability tables by operator in their Golden Spanner awards. Someone check Jan modern rail see if they published this years results in full or just highlights.

MR Jan (Roger Ford) has Northern's 319s P7 MTIN MAA at 7088 (Miles per Technical Incident, moving annual average), and 10% better than last year.
That's higher than Northern's 332s at 6458, but short of their 321s at 7736.
But GTR's 319s were at 14465, and GA's 321s were at 27030, 2x and 4x respectively.

Northern's 150s were at 8013, their 142s were at 7615.
Northern's 156s (maintained at Allerton with the 319s) were at 10106.

Northern's 319s do a significantly lower mileage than those on GTR, and it is a much less punishing route.
But you can see that "more reliable" is hardly a term you can use for the NW electrics.
And we are still waiting for the "faster journeys".
Capacity has doubled though.

 

[WatcherZero]

Gah, was on a horrible 319 today. Internal door button on the doors I tried to exit from not working and a deafening electric whine (like radio interference) coming from the ceiling whenever it took power, possibly pantograph.

 

[Bletchleyite]

LM are having terrible trouble with theirs - cancellations and short-forms of the 319 operated services on an almost daily basis, as I understand it.

 

[87015]

LM are having terrible trouble with theirs - cancellations and short-forms of the 319 operated services on an almost daily basis, as I understand it.

Yes, they would find doing any maintenance would help matters. Same as the 321s, reduced to a disgraceful state when Siemens are in charge.

The 350s are little better for short forms. The refusal to take on more 319s to help is an absolute joke.

 

[sk688]

LM are having terrible trouble with theirs - cancellations and short-forms of the 319 operated services on an almost daily basis, as I understand it.

Definitely. The 1834 Euston Bletchley always ends up as 4car 350 rather than 8 car 319, plus three are lots of door issues. I remember one of them has a set of doors that don't work ( LM refurbished unit), so the LM ones at least, seem terribly unreliable, although it has been said that they were given the worst units from Thameslink

 

[Silverlink]

Considering that half of London midland services are overcrowded they are stupid to reject anymore 319's. If they just service them properly then there would be many cancellations. But LM would rather get a Loco Hauled unit and waste money on training rather than getting more 319's. No logic

 

[87015]

Considering that half of London midland services are overcrowded they are stupid to reject anymore 319's. If they just service them properly then there would be many cancellations. But LM would rather get a Loco Hauled unit and waste money on training rather than getting more 319's. No logic

They'd much rather do nothing, hence demanding a 95mph fast line path in the peak because they know it isn't there so won't happen. it's the LM way, they have never cared about anything outside the West Midlands.

 

[childwallblues]

Must have been a great intervention then if it led to a much worse performance!!

I understand that Northerns problems with the 319s was mainly door related. The door controls were moved from the cabs to the saloons by Wolverton before they arrived up north.

 

[D365]

And here we were thinking guard controls are the saviour of our railways

 

[Silverlink]

Also ive been travelling on the 319's everyday on LM & Not one of them seem to have a problem (Not that i know of). Plus if they were that bad then wouldn't they be thinking about replacing them before the next franchise agreement?

 

[sk688]

Also ive been travelling on the 319's everyday on LM & Not one of them seem to have a problem (Not that i know of). Plus if they were that bad then wouldn't they be thinking about replacing them before the next franchise agreement?

One has a door problem on one of the coaches (441 I believe)

It's just their general reliability. I often use the 1834 Euston Bletchley ( booked 8car 319), but it seems to be more often than not operated by 350s