Arriva Rail North DOO

[455driver]

And yet you have no evidence for that.

What has happened to the second member of staff on every other English DOO scheme, but no there is no evidence is there! :roll:

 

[northwichcat]

What has happened to the second member of staff on every other English DOO scheme, but no there is no evidence is there! :roll:

This is a DCO scheme and before you say "that's the same" the principle behind it is for on board staff who can sell and check more tickets than a guard who, on some routes, can spend very little time doing revenue duties. Unlike in the South East there are many rural stations where it won't ever be viable to install ticket gates or even have RPIs based there on certain days.

 

[northwichcat]

Just like southern and the OBS, who then sent all the OBS a letter telling them that as the train approached a station they were to stop what they were doing (Customer service) and make their way to a door to see if there was anyone on the platform that needed their help, which sort of negates one of the supposed advantages of the OBS role over a traditional Guard!

Really? How many trains have been sat a station with the doors locked for over up to 60 seconds after arrival because the OBS hasn't got to the back of the train in time? I'd estimate that happens on around 20 to 25% of Northern services I travel on.

 

[northwichcat]

The evidence at Scotrail speaks for itself.

When did we re-nationalise the industry? I thought we were moving to more regional devolution so Transport Scotland have control over Scotrail and what happens there isn't reflective of what will or could happen in England.

Does the evidence at Merseyrail not speak for itself? Councils in England are happy to come out and say they want to move to 100% DOO from 100% guard operation if that's what they propose doing?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Really? How many trains have been sat a station with the doors locked for over 60 seconds after arrival because the OBS hasn't got to the back of the train in time? I'd estimate that happens on around 20 to 25% of Northern services I travel on.

what utter tosh. If that was the case it would be flagged up. Strange that it hasn't.

 

[TEW]

Really? How many trains have been sat a station with the doors locked for over 60 seconds after arrival because the OBS hasn't got to the back of the train in time? I'd estimate that happens on around 20 to 25% of Northern services I travel on.

*If* that genuinely is a problem, why not install door controls throughout the train and allow the guard to dispatch the train from any position, as is the case with most operators? You make it far easier for the guard to collect revenue that way by freeing them up from having to go to the back at every station.

 

[BHXDMT]

*If* that genuinely is a problem, why not install door controls throughout the train and allow the guard to dispatch the train from any position, as is the case with most operators? You make it far easier for the guard to collect revenue that way by freeing them up from having to go to the back at every station.

Exactly. I work Class 350s and I'm never more than 5 or so metres from a door panel. It also helps that my TOC (like many others) allow dispatch from wherever, unlike Northern who I believe stipulate no dispatch from the front.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

We can release from front but dispatch from rear if its one unit or front of the rear if its a double

 

[northwichcat]

what utter tosh. If that was the case it would be flagged up. Strange that it hasn't.

I meant to say 'up to 60 seconds.' Some guards seem happy to delay the train on the Mid-Cheshire line now that all the extra padding has been added in to timetable. Tey know that doing it at Knutsford when the train is on time won't result in a late departure from Altrincham or Northwich. Some MCRUA members are saying drivers releasing the doors can't come soon enough and I wouldn't be surprised if some of them submitted responses to the Northern rail consultation asking for something to be done about the door duties.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I meant to say 'up to 60 seconds.' Some guards seem happy to delay the train now that all the extra padding has been added in to timetable, they know that doing it at Knutsford when the train is on time won't result in a late departure from Altrincham or Northwich. Some MCRUA members are saying drivers releasing the doors can't come soon enough and I wouldn't be surprised if some of them submitted responses to the Northern rail consultation asking for the guards to be taken off door duties.

I'm afraid it certainly isn't a common occurance ahh the MCRUA the good old Mid-Cheshire Rail Users association. Mostly in there 80's and run by John Oates aka Sven how many achievements have you had over the last 15 years or so? It's quite laughable hearing some of the ideas from you lot and getting handed the usual newsletter from the Gentleman who gets off at Navigation Road. I remember when we had the 175's. The MCRUA wanted to keep them because they were new and didn't want toilets discharging onto the tracks. Oh and we love the fact that some of you know so much about the railway...50 years ago when Northwich still had its shed. JCollins you and your friends at the MCRUA really need to get a grip.

 

[Carlisle]

why not install door controls throughout the train and allow the guard to dispatch the train from any position, .

I think mainly because by now it's generally acknowledged by many running the industry (not just in the U.K.) that the technology has moved on

 

[northwichcat]

I'm afraid it certainly isn't a common occurance ahh the MCRUA the good old Mid-Cheshire Rail Users association. Mostly in there 80's and run by John Oates aka Sven

Actually incorrect. The ones who volunteer to do things like passenger counts are retired ones as are the ones who organise and turn up for music trains but there are working age members, especially those working on the Middlewich line campaign.

how many achievements have you had over the last 15 years or so?

Is providing evidence of passenger counts to help secure the inclusion of 2tph between Manchester and Greenbank in the franchise agreement not good enough?

Or persuading Northern that 2 car DMUs on an hourly Saturday services isn't always adequate and giving them notice of special events which are likely to trigger higher than usual loadings?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

ah yes counts. Happens throughout the network. The MCRUA didn't persuade Northern that 1 set is inadequate. Guards did by reporting as full and standing. Something we do on a regular basis. And Special events? The Flower Show and Delamere Music Festival hardly needs much reminding to Train Planning. Really great achievements. You can bathe in the Glory of the MCRUA and the amazing work they do. (No Sarcasm really)

 

[74A]

What has happened to the second member of staff on every other English DOO scheme, but no there is no evidence is there! :roll:

In all the previous schemes it was never proposed to have a second person.

 

[northwichcat]

ah yes counts. Happens throughout the network. The MCRUA didn't persuade Northern that 1 set is inadequate. Guards did by reporting as full and standing. Something we do on a regular basis. And Special events? The Flower Show and Delamere Music Festival hardly needs much reminding to Train Planning. Really great achievements. You can bathe in the Glory of the MCRUA and the amazing work they do. (No Sarcasm really)

Oh yes that process of guards reporting to planning which results in a whole load of services being reported as being full & standing, which Northern's planners don't know where to start on unless guards reported passengers being left on the platform, when in some cases (like at Bolton) they had no idea if the passengers left behind wanted to travel or if they were waiting for a later service. I'm still waiting for action on the 16:59 Chester to Manchester service, which a guard told passengers he reported to control as needing 4 carriages last July after it left Knutsford with around 150 standing one Friday!

Incidentally someone just told me the ticket office at Knutsford was closed this morning, the TVM out-of-order and they claim 'there was no guard on the train selling tickets.'

 

[455driver]

Really? How many trains have been sat a station with the doors locked for over up to 60 seconds after arrival because the OBS hasn't got to the back of the train in time? I'd estimate that happens on around 20 to 25% of Northern services I travel on.

Do please tell, you seem to know a lot on the subject!

Northern stipulate that the guard must work from the back of the train, other, more enlightened, TOCs have no such thing and it seems to work well.

 

[455driver]

I meant to say 'up to 60 seconds.' Some guards seem happy to delay the train on the Mid-Cheshire line now that all the extra padding has been added in to timetable. Tey know that doing it at Knutsford when the train is on time won't result in a late departure from Altrincham or Northwich. Some MCRUA members are saying drivers releasing the doors can't come soon enough and I wouldn't be surprised if some of them submitted responses to the Northern rail consultation asking for something to be done about the door duties.

Got any evidence or is that just your opinion?

 

[455driver]

In all the previous schemes it was never proposed to have a second person.

<cough> Gatwick Express <cough> with their OBMs!

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Sadly JCollins has lots and lots of opinions....very few facts

 

[northwichcat]

Northern stipulate that the guard must work from the back of the train, other, more enlightened, TOCs have no such thing and it seems to work well.

Have the RMT tried to change that policy? Do they have any evidence that a train dispatched from the middle by the guard is less safe than one dispatched by the driver?

 

[northwichcat]

Got any evidence or is that just your opinion?

That statement was clearly expressed as my view not a fact. If I tried to find all the anti-DOO opinions posted on this forum which are expressed as facts but actually opinions I'll still be listing them on Sunday.

 

[northwichcat]

Sadly JCollins has lots and lots of opinions....very few facts

So I take it you and the other Northern staff won't vote for industrial action unless Mick Cash provides you with some proper facts instead of just speculation? Or is speculation only permitted when it's coming from the RMT and it's anti-TOC/DfT?

 

[HH]

what utter tosh. If that was the case it would be flagged up. Strange that it hasn't.

1 minute is sub-threshold, so who would flag it up?

 

[HH]

You put the 153s and 321/2/3s all in the same category but the 153s and 323s should be gone before the 31st December 2019 deadline but the 321s and 322s (along with 5 of the 319s) will be kept beyond that deadline, for not for long afterwards.

That's irrelevant to the point that they will all be gone before any service is fully DCO.

 

[HH]

The company then admitted the huge bonuses involved after this event.

How huge? Can you link us to this admission? Surely this must have been investigated by the RAIB?

 

[HH]

I don't understand that.

How has Arriva reneged on what they said ? , they're talking at cross-purposes. Arriva only agreed to have a 2nd person on board.

The press release states that they said they couldn't guarantee this as well as not guaranteeing the safety critical nature of the role on all trains. I imagine that ARN want a similar situation to GTR, i.e. that a DCO train can depart without a second member of staff in some circumstances, which is not what RMT want. What ARN specifically said previously I don't know, so whether they have actually reneged is unclear to me.

At least the words "basket case" failed to make an appearance, so maybe RMT will play this one more smartly than GTR.

 

[Starmill]

The 319s already have door controls throughout. Ticket checks are pretty rare on the Airport shuttle. Almost every single one all day is late by the time it reaches Heald Green or Mauldeth Road.

Admittedly the guard will probably not be able to do much to get the scum to actually pay, and the majority or honest customers probably would use machines for afternoons if Northern could be bothered to provide them. Nonetheless the route is operated with guards and had lots of control panels, but has pretty rubbish staff presence and terrible punctuality.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The 319s already have door controls throughout. Ticket checks are pretty rare on the Airport shuttle. Almost every single one all day is late by the time it reaches Heald Green or Mauldeth Road.

Admittedly the guard will probably not be able to do much to get the scum to actually pay, and the majority or honest customers probably would use machines for afternoons if Northern could be bothered to provide them. Nonetheless the route is operated with guards and had lots of control panels, but has pretty rubbish staff presence and terrible punctuality.

That's mostly down to regulation through the Castlefield corridor.
Often stands at Ordsall Lane, and then again at Deansgate/Oxford Road, on a very slack schedule.
It also runs just behind the ATW both ways, and suffers as a result.
Guards check tickets on the Wigan route regularly, but you don't see them west of St Helens much.

 

[BestWestern]

Really? How many trains have been sat a station with the doors locked for over up to 60 seconds after arrival because the OBS hasn't got to the back of the train in time?

None, ever. An OBS has nothing to do with releasing the doors, and is unlikely ever to in the future...

 

[Bungle965]

That's mostly down to regulation through the Castlefield corridor.
Often stands at Ordsall Lane, and then again at Deansgate/Oxford Road, on a very slack schedule.
It also runs just behind the ATW both ways, and suffers as a result.
Guards check tickets on the Wigan route regularly, but you don't see them west of St Helens much.

You can also have a rare occasion where you have a guard who very much wants to do a ticket inspection. Pacing down the 319 at quite an astonishing speed, because of that the train is not late unless it gets regulated.
But then you have guards who will do a check but after often lethargic in getting back to open the doors and as a result the train is late getting a way from stations.
Then you have the vast majority who won't leave the cab...
Sam