ATW's Pacer Replacements: Any news?

[Parallel]

What is mind boggling is that some ATW 150s look like they have been away for a refresh/repaint. Why have these units not received PIS and the DDA toilet? The planning has been so poor, and they haven't got enough stock to send away more than two at a time for the mods. I really have no idea what they're waiting for. At the moment it feels like they are going to just wait until the deadline and winge that most of their units aren't suitable but that doesn't cut it.

In my opinion they should take on any 143s/144s/150s/153s going spare. Issue is there probably won't be any for about another two years. I can't speak for Northern but GWR is reportedly keeping their 143s and 153s until at least 2018 now.

 

[Great_Western]

That would help, but ATW do not have enough 150s to replace all their Pacers (36x 150 versus 30 Pacers, so unless only 6 of their 150s are currently diagrammed on ValleyLines work that wouldn't work). Also, there is still the problem that you have to throw £££s at the 150s to make them compliant and once the valleys are electrified 36 class 150s will be too many for the franchise. Given the investment required, will the ROSCO(s) allow a short-enough lease on 150s?

Great Western are struggling to find enough 165s and 166s for their own internal cascade at the moment, due to the electrification delays. I had overlooked the London Overground 172s though; thanks for pointing that out. My previous post has now been updated to include them. Anything else I've missed?

Do remember though, there are quie a few 2x pacer diagrams that run interchangably with 1x 150 so there may even be a small increase in capacity

 

[northwichcat]

Most cascaded Scotrail DMU's are going to Northern, there are supposedly 5 156's spare, and Southern have not taken all 9 170's they were supposed to be getting, don't forget Scotrail are keeping 13 more 170's than originally intended.

Which was why only 16 x 170s were available to Northern bidders to use in their December 2019 train plans opposed to the 29 x 170s originally envisaged.

Abellio's original plan was to keep all the Sprinters and to release all the Turbostars but Transport Scotland decided to source additional funds so they could keep 170s and more trains in total.

 

[northwichcat]

I can't speak for Northern but GWR is reportedly keeping their 143s and 153s until at least 2018 now.

Northern are supposed to be still getting the cascaded 150s but they'll start to transfer next year rather than in the Summer of this year. The 143s didn't have any future home, while some of the 153s were supposed to be going to LM to release 150s to Northern but the others didn't have a future home.

Northern aren't releasing any DMUs until 2019 (other than 1 x 153 transferring to EMT which is supposed to happen this coming autumn) and the DMUs they'll be releasing will be 79 x 142s, 23 x 144s and 17 x 153s.

 

[northwichcat]

• TPE: 22x 185 COMPLIANT Nov 2019 - March 2020
• Greater Anglia: 12x 170 COMPLIANT release date unknown
• ScotRail/Southern 5x 170 COMPLIANT May not actually be being released
• London Overground 8x 172 COMPLIANT but NO TOILETS release date unknown (Jan 2019?)

Note that Northern are required to source at least an additional 36 carriages which are class 170s or equivalent by 2022 so some of the above may be heading for Northern. If not Northern will need to get an additional batch of 195s.

 

[gareth950]

What is mind boggling is that some ATW 150s look like they have been away for a refresh/repaint. Why have these units not received PIS and the DDA toilet? The planning has been so poor, and they haven't got enough stock to send away more than two at a time for the mods. I really have no idea what they're waiting for. At the moment it feels like they are going to just wait until the deadline and winge that most of their units aren't suitable but that doesn't cut it.

In my opinion they should take on any 143s/144s/150s/153s going spare. Issue is there probably won't be any for about another two years. I can't speak for Northern but GWR is reportedly keeping their 143s and 153s until at least 2018 now.

ATW won't do anything because they're not obliged to, and the Welsh Govt won't fund the mods because they don't wanto spend the money, so are waiting for someone else to do it for them.

Question is, why aren't the ROSCO's doing it? They own the trains, shouldn't it be up to them to sort out mods if no-one else will? It's in their interests for their trains to be 2020 compliant more than anyone surely?

 

[northwichcat]

Question is, why aren't the ROSCO's doing it? They own the trains, shouldn't it be up to them to sort out mods if no-one else will? It's in their interests for their trains to be 2020 compliant more than anyone surely?

In the case of the Pacers they'd cost a lot to keep in service post-2019 so the ROSCOs won't fund those mods unless a TOC (or DfT or the WG on behalf of a TOC) agree to lease the units for a few years after the mods at a much higher cost. Porterbrook have produced an 'ePacer' to show what can be done but there's been no interest from anyone in using them post-2019.

 

[Roast Veg]

The ROSCOs are starting to get the idea, which is how we birth projects like the 144e and the D319. They don't want to have to take them off lease where possible, but the long term investment is in their favour if and only if they can guarantee use beyond 2020, the window for new build stock must be very narrow indeed right now, so I assume we can expect these and other projects to move forward in the near future.

EDIT: as mentioned above, the lease may be higher in order to pay for the mods, but it might also just be very long (or both)

 

[gareth950]

In the case of the Pacers they'd cost a lot to keep in service post-2019 so the ROSCOs won't fund those mods unless a TOC (or DfT or the WG on behalf of a TOC) agree to lease the units for a few years after the mods at a much higher cost. Porterbrook have produced an 'ePacer' to show what can be done but there's been no interest from anyone in using them post-2019.

This doesn't explain why the ATW 150s are not being done though, as it must be almost certain that they can be used somewhere in the UK post-2020, most obviously with Northern if Wales doesn't need them once the Metro is built.

The uncertainty about what form the 'Metro' will take - light rail, heavy rail, DMUs / EMUs / bi-modes / trams must be why the ROSCOs are stalling in modifying Wales' 150s. Which really isn't acceptable. The Welsh Govt really needs to make a decision and stop faffing around.

 

[northwichcat]

This doesn't explain why the ATW 150s are not being done though, as it must be almost certain that they can be used somewhere in the UK post-2020, most obviously with Northern if Wales doesn't need them once the Metro is built.

What would Northern use them for? They'll secure sufficient extra 150s by 2019 without taking on the ATW ones as well. The rolling stock for post-2019 growth has to be 170s or equivalent (which 150s aren't.)

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Since the Welsh Government are probably twiddling their thumbs on this.

One solution would be to retain the 143/144's beyond 2019 would be to reform them into 143/144 hybrids - 144's on the outer and 143's on the inner facing one another, toilets are locked out of use. So out of 11x 143 and 11x 144 you'd get 11x 4 car 143/144 combis, the e144 is kept as is and then you've got nine 3 car 144's.

Any remaining 143's and 144013 are retained for spares to keep what remains going until something long term can be found, probably by which time the 150's will be up for replacement too.

I don't suppose the 507's / 508's could be converted to diesel when Merseyrail gets shut of theirs as an alternative solution.

 

[northwichcat]

I don't suppose the 507's / 508's could be converted to diesel when Merseyrail gets shut of theirs as an alternative solution.

They're suffering from corrosion issues so it's unlikely any work to keep them in service post-2020 will be economically viable, especially when there's so many newer EMUs that'll be coming off-lease.

 

[Rhydgaled]

This doesn't explain why the ATW 150s are not being done though, as it must be almost certain that they can be used somewhere in the UK post-2020, most obviously with Northern if Wales doesn't need them once the Metro is built.

The thing is, I don't think there are many places ATW's 150s can be used once the Cardiff metro happens. Northern could trade them for their 150/1s I suppose, but then the investment in PRM mods for 150/1s would go 'down the drain'. If for argument's sake we put the date of Metro completion at 2025, would that be a long-enough lease (with no guaranteed lease for most of the fleet beyond that) for the ROSCOs to make all 36 ATW 150s compliant?

I've had a bit of a brainwave though, implement PRM mods on a third of the ATW 150 fleet (12x units) and reclassify the remainder as 150/3. Ban class 150/3 units from working alone and run pairs of them in multiple with a 150/2 sandwiched in between. Thus you would have 12x 6-car formations for Treherbert/Rhymney/Penarth services (the routes with 6-car platforms). I'm not sure how many diagrams are needed to work those two routes though, and the Merthyr/Aberdare/Barry/Bridgend curcuit would then be reliant on the 319 Flex being usable as a straight DMU for the time being until electrification allows them to use their bi-mode capabilities (when they would move to SWA-Cheltenham and CDF-Hereford stopping services). When the Metro happens, the non-PRM 150/3s could then be disposed of and the 12x compliant units should be easier to find homes for than the full fleet of 36 units would (my preferance would be a new Swansea metro).

The uncertainty about what form the 'Metro' will take - light rail, heavy rail, DMUs / EMUs / bi-modes / trams must be why the ROSCOs are stalling in modifying Wales' 150s. Which really isn't acceptable. The Welsh Govt really needs to make a decision and stop faffing around.

The Welsh Government have made one decision regarding metro rolling stock, it won't be DMUs. The decision on light/heavy/EMU/bi-mode is being left to the bidders though.

 

[gareth950]

Let's face it, the best Wales can expect in terms of extra DMUs to get it through to when the infrastructure improvements promised in the new franchise start happening are cast off DMUs left that Scotland and England don't want.

Which will be GWR and Northern's 143s, 144s and 153s. So in reality, if the ROSCOs are saying it's not worth refurbishing Wales' existing 150s just for another 5 yrs service max. post 2019, then why bother? It will only give the 150s a stay of execution, which could be used in the long term as an excuse to delay electrification and infrastructure improvements which could bring new trains to Wales.
Ask passengers in Wales what their immediate priorities are for improvements to services in Wales, esp. in and around Cardiff, and the big priority is capacity and relieving overcrowding. Taking stock out of service in 2019 to get mods done will exacerbate Wales' DMU shortage even more.

So whilst it will be politically embarrassing for the Welsh Govt for Wales to be the only part of the UK with non-DDA compliant stock post 2019, the best option Wales can realistically hope for is mass derogation's for 150s, 143s/144s and 153s post 2019 that can be used as a short term capacity boost on the Valley lines until the Metro materialises, whatever form it takes.

Refresh the carriages internally to a good enough standard, as ATWs 150s have been done and have plenty of seats for everyone, commuters will be happy. Get rid of the worst of the Pacers in the 142s. Lock toilets out of use so no-one is discriminated against there and no need to fit expensive controlled emissions tanks.
Of course, if the WG decides on heavy rail bi-modes for the Valleys, new trains can be ordered once the new franchise is awarded, with those trains able to come into service in 2021/2022. If the thinking of splitting the Valleys network in two persists, with light rail and trams north of Queen St and heavy rail to the Vale, improvements will be much slower to materialise.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Looking at the TSI-PRM suituation another way, I think the remaining non-compliant units with no current plans for replacement or modification are:

• ATW 142+143 - 30 units
• ATW 150/2 - 36 units
• ATW 153 - 8 units
• EMT 153 - 17 units
• GWR 153 - 5 units* - Replacement plan cancelled due to 165/166 cascade delays
• LM 153 - 8-17 units*
• Chiltern 121 - 2 units

* The other 9x GWR 153s have now been removed from my earlier list of released stock 153, as I think some/all of those are going to LM to release their 3x 150/1 for Northern.

Anyway, the list above shows a total of 115 units (181 vehicles) needing work or replacement. Excluding the mrk4s (which may not be available until 2020) and sole ePacer, my earlier list of released stock contains only 61 units (157 vehicles), so I reckon at least one franchise is going to be unable to meet the deadline unless one or more of them do something creative (eg. LHCS, either mrk5 or, if available in time, mrk4, or bi-mode 319s). If 12 of ATW's 150s were made compliant, the number of vehicles would be equal but even the whole 36-strong fleet of 150s would not be enough to make up the total number of units required, but who wants to be stuck with such uncomfortable units for very long (I guess it all depends on how long the shortest lease necessary for the ROSCOs to invest in compliance is)? Note also that all of the released compliant diesel stock has 23m vehicles (except the ePacer demonstrator unit), which I believe are not cleared for Treherebert/Aberdare/Merthyr. That leaves very few options for Wales & Borders, they could use 23m vehicles on the Rhymney line but I think a 3-car 170/185 would have less seats than the 4-car Pacers currently used (and 6x 23m would be too long for the platforms; do 170s and 185s have SDO?)

If the thinking of splitting the Valleys network in two persists, with light rail and trams north of Queen St and heavy rail to the Vale, improvements will be much slower to materialise.

With 8tph (at least) from the south/west and much more than that from Queen Street, is there enough platform capacity at Cardiff Central to terminate all that lot? The idea is bonkers if you ask me. I thought the current linkages across Cardiff were primarily done to avoid having to turn units back in CDF to save platform occupation time. If you want light-rail in the Valleys, without diverting to a seperate street section instead of running into platforms at CDF, I would have thought at least the Penarth line would need to be part of the light-rail network to avoid terminating too much at CDF. My personal opinion is that Coryton-Heath and Cardiff Bay are the only routes short enough to be converted to tram, prefrably with a street-running link between them to allow them to serve Cardiff Central (by means of a stop outside the southern entrance to the train station).

 

[gareth950]

Forgetting everything i've said previously, tonight was the second time in a week I've been on a valley lines service where an engine has failed leaving a carriage in darkness.
Last week was in the daytime so wasn't too bad, but tonight it was coming home in the dark at 6pm. As it was a 4 car Pacer ATW left the unit with the failed engine in service, with the front unit working harder than usual.

As was mentioned in the Senedd last week, sooner or later the valley lines are going to break and the Welsh Govt will then HAVE to do something. Until then it's the usual "the next franchise in Oct 2018............"

If engines are starting to regularly fail in service on valleys Pacers and Sprinters now (last week it was a 150 with an engine failiure), how can these trains be expected to keep going for possibly another 8-10 years? Madness.

 

[Chester1]

2018 is the earliest anything could arrive if a decision was made now but it won't be. What lines could not be served an e319 or a 150? I suspect there will be a mad rush in 2018 to convert sufficient e319s and scrap together enough sprinters. Its mad if the 150s are not made DDA compliant prior to October 2018.

 

[Rhydgaled]

2018 is the earliest anything could arrive if a decision was made now but it won't be.

What could arrive in 2018? Cascaded stock, maybe? But apart from Northern's Pacers and 153s, and TPE's 185s, I couldn't find exact release dates for stock. I doubt a new DMU, even if ordered today, could be here before Jan 2020 because the chart in the Jan 2017 Modern Railways shows the current delivery dates for new DMUs as follows:

• Class 197 'Civity' DMU (Northern), Oct 2018 - Dec 2020
• Flirt electro-diesel (Anglia), Mid 2018 - 2019

Neither look a particularly useful design for Wales long-term (although 3/4-car 'Civity' units might be a useful pre-electrification stop-gap for the valleys), but even if you could tag onto the end of either order, you aren't going to get them until late 2019 at the earliest. Interestingly the Civity date runs beyond the TSI-PRM deadline, but then the same delivery dates were given for the EMU version so presumably Northern will have asked for whatever they need to ditch their Pacers and 153s to be delivered first with the rest following.

If you want a new train, TPE's Mrk5a order delivers by December 2018 (starting in 'Spring 2018'), so in theory another batch of around 66 coaches could be built by 2020 if production follows on from TPE's batch without a pause. Hire some DVTs and 67s and you have 'new trains' for the passengers at least although it wouldn't be a new train throughout.

What lines could not be served an e319 or a 150? I suspect there will be a mad rush in 2018 to convert sufficient e319s and scrap together enough sprinters.

Technically, 150s can run pretty much anywhere, it's just that they are unsuitable for anything that is over a hour travel time (too beeeeeep uncomfortable). They are also unsuitable for anything limited-stop (the only excuse for using a 150 is that the dwell times really would add up if you put something like a 158 on an all-stops working). Thus I don't want to see many 150s (if any) retained by the franchise once the ValleyLines are electrified. I think 319s are the same body profile as 150s, so there shouldn't be guaging issues; the big questions are whether they:

• can be delivered to Wales by the end of 2019 in sufficient numbers
• would be able to keep to current ValleyLines schedules on pure diesel power and
• would have large enough fuel tanks to get through a full day's diagram without using OHLE

Its mad if the 150s are not made DDA compliant prior to October 2018.

The current franchise doesn't run beyond the deadline, so ATW have no reason to release units for such work (or pay for it).

 

[507021]

Class 197 'Civity' DMU (Northern), Oct 2018 - Dec 2020

Class 195.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Technically, 150s can run pretty much anywhere, it's just that they are unsuitable for anything that is over a hour travel time (too beeeeeep uncomfortable). They are also unsuitable for anything limited-stop

But that's only because of the interior. You can posh one up, fitting 24 seats in each full section at 2+2 with tables, improving lighting and aligning as many as possible with the windows, and other than aircon and a bit of engine noise it'll be nice enough:

Or you can let them get to rack and ruin like do-bare-minimum, lazy, sloppy Arriva do, throughout near enough their entire sphere of operations, both bus and rail.

 

[krus_aragon]

I find that image to be instantly recognisable as a 150 (to an enthusiast, granted), and very similar to ATW's current 150s, with the exception of the ceiling displays. Of greater issue (IMHO) is the underfloor engines, plug doors, and hopper windows that make for a rattly, noisy journey.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I find that image to be instantly recognisable as a 150 (to an enthusiast, granted), and very similar to ATW's current 150s, with the exception of the ceiling displays. Of greater issue (IMHO) is the underfloor engines, plug doors, and hopper windows that make for a rattly, noisy journey.

The primary difference to ATW's current 150s is that it is clean and well-looked-after.

A 150 will always look like a 150, but it can be made pleasant to use.

 

[gareth950]

The primary difference to ATW's current 150s is that it is clean and well-looked-after.

A 150 will always look like a 150, but it can be made pleasant to use.

When was the last time you were on an ATW 150? At least half of ATW's 150 fleet have been internally refreshed to a good standard, with more being part refreshed. Even before they were refreshed, I thought they were in a better condition than FGW's blue and pink 150 interiors.

 

[Parallel]

I used a refreshed ATW 150 last week and they are smart internally. Not sure if it's new flooring or just deep cleaned though. My main gripe is the lighting; it's too harsh. The GWR 150/2s are/were fine as I think Wessex Trains put in better fixings with a cover. The fixtures used for ATW's 150s and GWR's 150/1s were fine with T12 bulbs but ATW's T8s are very bright and there is a lot of glare from GWR's bare LED bulbs (when they work).

 

[Rhydgaled]

But that's only because of the interior. You can posh one up, fitting 24 seats in each full section at 2+2 with tables, improving lighting and aligning as many as possible with the windows, and other than aircon and a bit of engine noise it'll be nice enough

I must admit, I was pleasantly supprised to find that the tables actually alined with the windows when I got a refurbished GWR 150 on my trip around Devon and Cornwall last summer. I don't think I tried sitting in the airline seating though; is the legroom any better than Arriva's? If not, then it still is no good for anything over 1hr (the abysmal legroom is the main reason 150s are so horribly uncomfortable (ATW's Pacers and 153s seem to be the same in this respect)). If GWR have managed to improve the legroom as well, then I'm amazed; I wouldn't have thought the relatively short vehicles and surburban door layout allowed for better legroom without removing most of the seats.

I find that image to be instantly recognisable as a 150 (to an enthusiast, granted), and very similar to ATW's current 150s, with the exception of the ceiling displays. Of greater issue (IMHO) is the underfloor engines, plug doors, and hopper windows that make for a rattly, noisy journey.

I assume by 'plug doors' you are referring to the fact that class 150s don't have them. As noted above, the big difference with GWR's refurb is that the table bays are actually positioned to let you see out of the windows (ATW's 150s have the seats on one side of the table looking at solid wall).

Class 195.

Good spot. Not my fault though, it says 197 in the mag. (maybe the author got confused with the 397, which is also a CAF Civity unit).

 

[Bletchleyite]

When was the last time you were on an ATW 150?

About 3-4 months ago?

At least half of ATW's 150 fleet have been internally refreshed to a good standard, with more being part refreshed.

The photos you show are quite an improvement, though they still seem to be laid out for dwarves. They really should remove three rows (one in each section) from each coach, or replace the seats with much thinner ones. The GWR layout seems not as dense.

They should also have done something about the lighting - bare tubes are too utilitarian and very 1980s. A diffuser over the top does a decent job on the cheap as GWR have done, or if you're willing to pay a bit more then a lighting conduit with LED spots is a really nice addition.

However, the original green-seated ones were a horrid colour, and were utterly filthy with loose rattling panels and bits falling off.

Even before they were refreshed, I thought they were in a better condition than FGW's blue and pink 150 interiors.

Not the last one I went on on the Conwy Valley, it was in a right state.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I used a refreshed ATW 150 last week and they are smart internally. Not sure if it's new flooring or just deep cleaned though. My main gripe is the lighting; it's too harsh. The GWR 150/2s are/were fine as I think Wessex Trains put in better fixings with a cover. The fixtures used for ATW's 150s and GWR's 150/1s were fine with T12 bulbs but ATW's T8s are very bright and there is a lot of glare from GWR's bare LED bulbs (when they work).

The GWR photo above seems to show a metal diffuser?

The trouble with LEDs is that there is a temptation to use very cheap ones, and they are rubbish. It is necessary to pay a good sum for quality branded LEDs that have a good spectral range and driver circuits that give no visible flicker, though they are getting cheaper. The Chiltern LHCS ones are particularly bad, they have all the ambiance of an illuminated emergency exit sign or a row of cheap headtorches bought for a quid each off Ebay.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Forgetting everything i've said previously, tonight was the second time in a week I've been on a valley lines service where an engine has failed leaving a carriage in darkness.

This has always happened from time to time. Personally I seek out coaches with failed engines so I can have a decent night-time window view, I used to do the same for Mk3s with no lighting on the WCML.