Class 375 DOO Compatibility

[electrostar375]

Are the Class 375's DOO compatible? If so why were they not fitted with DOO cameras like the Class 377?


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[MCR247]

They don't have cameras AFAIK

 

[Fincra5]

Are the Class 375's DOO compatible? If so why were they not fitted with DOO cameras like the Class 377?


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Probably because they were spec'd by Connex to replace the slamdoor trains directly.. on routes where there isn't DOO.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Weren't the 375/9's fitted with bodyside cameras?

 

[swt class 450]

Although the 375s dont have cameras they do run DOO within the Greater London area (using platform CCTV screens or platform mirrors or train despatcher staff on the platforms). As far as i am aware they only have Guards on the routes South of Sevenoaks and South of Otford and East of Swanley at the moment. I imagine it would be very easy to fit DOO cameras on the 375s if Southeastern ever want to copy their sister company Southern and go entirely DOO across Kent and Sussex (although i really hope that they dont).

 

[tsr]

Although the 375s dont have cameras they do run DOO within the Greater London area (using platform CCTV screens or platform mirrors or train despatcher staff on the platforms). As far as i am aware they only have Guards on the routes South of Sevenoaks and South of Otford and East of Swanley at the moment. I imagine it would be very easy to fit DOO cameras on the 375s if Southeastern ever want to copy their sister company Southern and go entirely DOO across Kent and Sussex (although i really hope that they dont).

They have guards in the London area, they just don't generally dispatch the train - as I understand it, chiefly to provide consistency at the Greater London stations. Generally, dispatch for 375s on the longer-distance routes seems to fall to station staff.

As for fitting DOO cameras being easy, you do have to account for the extra structures for the monitors in the drivers' cabs, and any updated standards since both the 375s and 377s were built. We have already seen variations in monitor positioning with 387s, for example.

 

[Fincra5]

Given how hard GTR made it sound to properly upgrade the 377 cameras.. you'd be surprised.

 

[387star]

Never knew they didn't have cameras!

 

[physics34]

Although the 375s dont have cameras they do run DOO within the Greater London area (using platform CCTV screens or platform mirrors or train despatcher staff on the platforms). As far as i am aware they only have Guards on the routes South of Sevenoaks and South of Otford and East of Swanley at the moment. I imagine it would be very easy to fit DOO cameras on the 375s if Southeastern ever want to copy their sister company Southern and go entirely DOO across Kent and Sussex (although i really hope that they dont).

as far as im aware they do not run DOO on SE land. The cabs are not designed around the driver viewing external DOO monitors. Visibility is poor.

 

[swt class 450]

They have guards in the London area, they just don't generally dispatch the train - as I understand it, chiefly to provide consistency at the Greater London stations. Generally, dispatch for 375s on the longer-distance routes seems to fall to station staff.

As for fitting DOO cameras being easy, you do have to account for the extra structures for the monitors in the drivers' cabs, and any updated standards since both the 375s and 377s were built. We have already seen variations in monitor positioning with 387s, for example.

Thanks for the info. So is every 375 guaranteed to have a Guard within the Greater London area? Or are Southeastern permitted to run 375s without the Guard onboard within the Greater London area? For example if it was necessary (maybe due to staff shortages or other reasons) could the train run between Central London and Sevenoaks / Otford / Swanley without the Guard onboard and then the Guard boards or alights at Sevenoaks / Otford / Swanley stations?

When the 377s were built did they have cameras or were they built without like the 375s were? I presume at least the 375/3 units which became the 377/3 units were built without them?

 

[electrostar375]

Trains do run from Tonbridge to London DOO during major disruption, if the guard is misplaced, however it can't stop at Hildenborough due to no staff to dispatch it or platform monitors.


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[electrostar375]

As for Class 377's with DOO cameras fitted when made, below is a link of a Derby Move with a Class 377 and you can see the side cameras.

https://flic.kr/p/epvQRo


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[XDM]

Southeastern drivers release the doors on 375's on every part of the southeastern network,even when guards are aboard.

 

[MCR247]

As for Class 377's with DOO cameras fitted when made, below is a link of a Derby Move with a Class 377 and you can see the side cameras.

https://flic.kr/p/epvQRo


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Oddly enough thats a 377/3, which has made me think when they were delivered as 375/3 were they the only 375s with cameras?

 

[electrostar375]

Oddly enough thats a 377/3, which has made me think when they were delivered as 375/3 were they the only 375s with cameras?

They where sent back and fitted with cameras and the new type coupler which is why they where reclassed as 377's


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[Mintona]

We used to have a job where the guard would get off the last train up from Ashford to Victoria at St Mary Cray in order to catch the last one back south, and the train ran DOO from there (it only called at Bromley South after that).

 

[tsr]

Trains do run from Tonbridge to London DOO during major disruption, if the guard is misplaced, however it can't stop at Hildenborough due to no staff to dispatch it or platform monitors.

As already mentioned, 375 (and indeed most Electrostar) cabs aren't configured for using the usual type of platform monitors, so I shouldn't think they'd have specially-designed monitors fitted for occasional emergency DOO dispatch.

Southeastern drivers release the doors on 375's on every part of the southeastern network,even when guards are aboard.

That's not the same as operating DOO, and on Electrostars, this is largely down to a combination of both software and hardware limitations (the onboard computer systems get confused when you open the doors from an intermediate or back cab, and there's no hardware at the saloon panels either). I don't believe there are any Electrostar variants currently running where a conductor would be permitted to open the doors.

Oddly enough thats a 377/3, which has made me think when they were delivered as 375/3 were they the only 375s with cameras?

They where sent back and fitted with cameras and the new type coupler which is why they where reclassed as 377's

One of the key differences between 375 and 377 traction training is in the use and provision of bodyside cameras. Even the conversion/additional knowledge briefings for Southeastern drivers from 375s to 377s didn't include full training on the camera dispatch equipment, which is one of the reasons why Southeastern drivers must always have a conductor on all the Southern passenger services they operate.

 

[swt class 450]

As already mentioned, 375 (and indeed most Electrostar) cabs aren't configured for using the usual type of platform monitors, so I shouldn't think they'd have specially-designed monitors fitted for occasional emergency DOO dispatch.

That's not the same as operating DOO, and on Electrostars, this is largely down to a combination of both software and hardware limitations (the onboard computer systems get confused when you open the doors from an intermediate or back cab, and there's no hardware at the saloon panels either). I don't believe there are any Electrostar variants currently running where a conductor would be permitted to open the doors.

One of the key differences between 375 and 377 traction training is in the use and provision of bodyside cameras. Even the conversion/additional knowledge briefings for Southeastern drivers from 375s to 377s didn't include full training on the camera dispatch equipment, which is one of the reasons why Southeastern drivers must always have a conductor on all the Southern passenger services they operate.

On the 378s they have full door control panels in both the saloon and the rear cab which includes controls to both open and close the doors and local door controls. Back when 378s used to have Guards (before London Overground went fully DOO) the Guards had to both open and close the doors. So i presume with some simple modifications it would be possible for 375s and 377s to have the Guards open the doors as well if it was ever necessary. As far as i am aware the 378s are the only Electrostars to allow Guards to open the doors (although im not entirely about the 376s and 379s as i have never seen their controls and panels).

 

[tsr]

On the 378s they have full door control panels in both the saloon and the rear cab which includes controls to both open and close the doors and local door controls. Back when 378s used to have Guards (before London Overground went fully DOO) the Guards had to both open and close the doors. So i presume with some simple modifications it would be possible for 375s and 377s to have the Guards open the doors as well if it was ever neccessary. As far as i am aware the 378s are the only Electrostars to allow Guards to open the doors (although im not entirely about the 376s and 379s as i have never seen their controls and panels).

I'm pretty sure at least one former Overground guard has posted on here that they weren't permitted to use the door opening controls on 378s. I may be getting confused - but I have to say that I don't recall ever seeing them open them in passenger service.

The modifications on the earlier Electrostars are not simple on the basis that a configuration error can occur on Mitrac if the doors are released from anywhere other than a leading cab (there was actually a notice to 377 drivers not long ago emphasising this). So you'd have to rewrite that part of the control system. You'd also have to install local door opening controls for the saloon panels, in addition to door release buttons.

Do conductors ever actually routinely work 376 and 379 stock? My understanding was that these are DOO, except perhaps the use of the battery-electric IPEMU 379. If they don't work them, then there likely won't be any competencies held to release doors even if it could actually be done.

 

[electrostar375]

I'm pretty sure at least one former Overground guard has posted on here that they weren't permitted to use the door opening controls on 378s. I may be getting confused - but I have to say that I don't recall ever seeing them open them in passenger service.



The modifications on the earlier Electrostars are not simple on the basis that a configuration error can occur on Mitrac if the doors are released from anywhere other than a leading cab (there was actually a notice to 377 drivers not long ago emphasising this). So you'd have to rewrite that part of the control system. You'd also have to install local door opening controls for the saloon panels, in addition to door release buttons.



Do conductors ever actually routinely work 376 and 379 stock? My understanding was that these are DOO, except perhaps the use of the battery-electric IPEMU 379. If they don't work them, then there likely won't be any competencies held to release doors even if it could actually be done.

As far as I am aware the Class 376's have no guard panels in the carriages or in the cabs, they are fully DOO, in regards to Class 377's the guard panels in the cabs have been sealed over to stop guards dispatching from the cabs, guards can only dispatch in the cabs by using the 10 bell dispatch procedure.


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[ComUtoR]

As far as I am aware the Class 376's have no guard panels in the carriages or in the cabs

There is a key switch. I have a key for it.

 

[swt class 450]

I'm pretty sure at least one former Overground guard has posted on here that they weren't permitted to use the door opening controls on 378s. I may be getting confused - but I have to say that I don't recall ever seeing them open them in passenger service.

The modifications on the earlier Electrostars are not simple on the basis that a configuration error can occur on Mitrac if the doors are released from anywhere other than a leading cab (there was actually a notice to 377 drivers not long ago emphasising this). So you'd have to rewrite that part of the control system. You'd also have to install local door opening controls for the saloon panels, in addition to door release buttons.

Do conductors ever actually routinely work 376 and 379 stock? My understanding was that these are DOO, except perhaps the use of the battery-electric IPEMU 379. If they don't work them, then there likely won't be any competencies held to release doors even if it could actually be done.

They got rid of Guards a while ago so maybe I'm thinking of the 172s and getting confused but I'm sure i remember seeing London Overground Guards on 378s open their local door then step on to the platform then press the buttons to release the doors. I must just be thinking of their 172s. If the Guards didn't open the doors then i do wonder why the 378s were built with open buttons and local door controls in all the panels?

The battery 379 on the Harwich line was the only one to operate with a Guard as far as i am aware. Although I'm not sure what the arrangements were regarding the opening and closing of the doors? I presume the Guard would of had to have both opened and closed the doors like they do with all other stock on that line?

I don't know if any Guards sign 376s. Do the 376s ever occasionally get used on longer distance mainline routes? If so i presume at least some of the Guards would sign them.

So on 375s and 377s if the Guard was to open the doors (for example by using the drivers open controls in the rear cab) what exactly would happen? I presume by configuration error you mean it would cause some sort of software problem? Also can i ask what Mitrac is? I have heard of it before but cant seem to find much information about it.

 

[Fincra5]

They got rid of Guards a while ago so maybe I'm thinking of the 172s and getting confused but I'm sure i remember seeing London Overground Guards on 378s open their local door then step on to the platform then press the buttons to release the doors. I must just be thinking of their 172s. If the Guards didn't open the doors then i do wonder why the 378s were built with open buttons and local door controls in all the panels?

The battery 379 on the Harwich line was the only one to operate with a Guard as far as i am aware. Although I'm not sure what the arrangements were regarding the opening and closing of the doors? I presume the Guard would of had to have both opened and closed the doors like they do with all other stock on that line?

I don't know if any Guards sign 376s. Do the 376s ever occasionally get used on longer distance mainline routes? If so i presume at least some of the Guards would sign them.

So on 375s and 377s if the Guard was to open the doors (for example by using the drivers open controls in the rear cab) what exactly would happen? I presume by configuration error you mean it would cause some sort of software problem? Also can i ask what Mitrac is? I have heard of it before but cant seem to find much information about it.

The Key switch on 377's for a guard only activates the Bell Buzzer nothing else, so pressing door open or close does nothing.

I think on 375's it does or did activate the door close button.

@tsr that explains why we still have Brighton guards booked to work some 377s from Redhill to London Bridge and V/V then! (Assuming another guard - probably SE one - is onboard to tonbirdge)