Fastest Transpennine journey time using existing infrastructure

[modernrail]

If you were to only use existing infrastructure (except a new curve west of Bradford if there is not one there already) but with no stops at any stations in-between (and presuming a clear run at line speed in a 185), which of these would be quickest between Leeds and a central Manchester station?

- existing tp northern route
- via Calder Valley but missing out Bradford interchange via curve suggested above;
- via Dewsbury and Brighouse?

Of these, which offers the best potential to speed up journey times at the lowest cost with improvements?

 

[modernrail]

I have found this article that cover the face that it was intended to continue the Rishworth branch knocking 5 miles out. How many minutes could that knock out of the journey?

 

[mike57]

Well as a regular user of the TPE north route this is a topic I am interested in.

Current best journey time Man Pic to Leeds seems to be 49 mins which for a 42.75 mile journey is an average speed of 52.3mph

Current best Man Vic - Leeds is also 49 mins for 43 miles according to NRT, 52.6mph I would have thought that Man Vic - Stalybridge would be shorter but obviously not.

Given current infrastructure I would expect that either alternative route would be slower, certainly on diversions, when Stalybridge was closed a few years ago non stop Leeds - Man Vic via Brighouse and Calder valley were around 1h20m

53mph for an 'express' inter city service is very poor. The current mainline between Leeds and Manchester is I suspect at its capacity limit, and very few places where fast trains can overtake stoppers. End result is late running, 5-10 minutes being common, due to 'following a stopping service'. This is usually recovered by York as there are recovery times at York and Leeds in current timetable.

Current push to run more frequent trains isn't the answer, this will just make timetable even more fragile, 4 longer trains per hour would be easier to path, and more reliable. 15 min intervals instead of 10 mins is only another 5 min wait.

Add to that sending everything through Man Vic is another bad move, if you have an onward connection it is likely to be from Man Pic, which will be at least 10 mins from Man Vic when the Ordsal chord opens. It reminds me of the old days when you either changed at Stalybridge for Stockport or wasted about 20mins getting between Pic and Vic

My own recipe for improved York - Leeds - Manchester service whilst hopefully keeping cost under control:
Restore fast through lines at Crossgate and Dewsbury.
Make passing loops at Slaithwaite (current formation appears to be in the middle of the old 4 track layout.)
If a bit more money was available:
Keep majority of trains routed direct to Man Pic, 4 tracks could be restored on the Guide Bridge - Ardwick section, with a higher line speed, to segregate stopping trains. There doesnt appear to have been much encroachment on the old 4 track formation.
4 tracks around Mirfield, there is room, but Mirfield Station with its big island platform would be in the way, and would require redevelopment.

I think maximum speed between Leeds and Manchester is 75mph, with a little bit of 85mph west of Huddersfield. There probably isnt much scope to increase this, but at least get trains moving as near this as is possible within the existing corridor.

42 mins (60mph av) should be easily achievable.

I actually don't think electrification is going to deliver a faster or more reliable service, may cheaper for TOCs to run, but thats all. What if electrification money was to be spent on small scale improvements like I have mentioned?

 

[gimmea50anyday]

If they want to speed up times how about ditching the ridiculous notion of running tains not stopping at Durham through the platform at Durham! (Or at Darlington for that matter)


The platform at Mirfield doesnt affect the 4 track layout. That said the formation use has changed since first built however a rethink of the pairing of the route layout could lead to speed increases while 4 tracking from Dewsbury all the way to Stalybridge is theoretically possible if expensive.

 

[lejog]

If you were to only use existing infrastructure (except a new curve west of Bradford if there is not one there already) but with no stops at any stations in-between (and presuming a clear run at line speed in a 185), which of these would be quickest between Leeds and a central Manchester station?

- existing tp northern route
- via Calder Valley but missing out Bradford interchange via curve suggested above;
- via Dewsbury and Brighouse?

Of these, which offers the best potential to speed up journey times at the lowest cost with improvements?

You only need to look at the routes on a map to see that the Calder Valley options would never be the quickest - the route was the first trans-Pennine route built specifically because it offered the lowest gradients, it is far from direct. However it is possible to travel from Hebden Bridge to Leeds non-stop via Brighouse in 31-32mins (and Northern do divert late-running trains this way to recover time) and to Victoria non-stop in 30mins, so say an hour non-stop.

Speed increases to 90 mph between Rochdale and Manchester were completed in December and there are forthcoming increases to 90mph due east of Todmorden, which should knock a few minutes off this. However apparently these only apply to DMUs excluding 185s, so you would have to use a 158! Ironic that the much longer route will soon have higher speeds than the Huddersfield route, even if it can't match the journey time.

There used to br the Bowling Curve south of Bradford, which bypassed the reversal there, but the route through Bradford and Halifax, in addition to the reversal, suffers from low speed curves, higher gradients and pathing allowances through Holbeck Junction, shared with VTEC trains.

 

[modernrail]

The fastest Huddersfield to Leeds is 19 minutes. I can see no reason why this can't be achieved from Brighouse. If anything it should be a couple of minutes quicker with less distance and a straighter run through Cooper Bridge. The fastest Halifax to Manchester is 46 minutes. The same should be achievable from Brighouse. That is 65 minutes, not particularly attractive.

The fastest Huddersfield to Manchester is 31 minutes. Fastest Leeds to Manchester, 53 minutes.

I understand the line speed improvements scheduled will knock about 6 minutes off, so an hour.

What I am thinking is whether, if you speed up Leeds to Mirfield and the run from Mirfield to Copley and then reinstate the Rishworth line and complete to Littleborough, does this start to be the logical choice for northern powerhouse rail. If you could as much as possible up to 90mph with odd stretches above this this feels game changing.

It would do many things. It would release commuter capacity. It would provide an element of grade separation. It would also provide Bradford and Halifax with faster Manchester services.

It also feels like the only viable ask for a new Transpennine crossing. It would be expensive, but not hideous.

Halifax, Bradford and Huddersfield would all receive benefits and so it should be politically acceptable.

 

[modernrail]

Does anybody know how to get hold of back copies of the Railway Times? This webpage suggests an edition from way back might have details of another proposed but unconstructed fast Transpennine route:

http://www.shmrc.org.uk/club-layouts/ogden-fold/

 

[edwin_m]

There's an interpretation board at the site of Measurements Halt on the Delph branch saying it was intended at one time to form a shorter Transpennine route, and this is given as the reason why the nearby overbridge was built for double track (I can think of no other earthly reason to do this, which gives it some credibility). This can't have been a route via Ogden though, as going to Milnrow or Littleborough would take it nowhere near Delph. However a very brief mention on the link below suggests a link from Rishworth via Castleshaw to Delph and then New Tame (near Dobcross Halt) to Royton.

http://saddind.co.uk/history-saddleworth-by-rail-part-2/

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I have found this article that cover the face that it was intended to continue the Rishworth branch knocking 5 miles out. How many minutes could that knock out of the journey?

The type of terrain that would have had to be crossed and the associated infrastructural requirements in order to achieve that aspiration was something that would have involved quite a high financial cost.

 

[modernrail]

Absolutely, but it was obviously a very serious aspiration - otherwise they would not have built phase 1 to mainline double track "high speed" standards. Rishworth must have enjoyed one of the most over specified train lines in the country for its eventual duties as a branch line. A hundred and fifty years of tunnelling technology on, perhaps this is option that should be re-considered.

 

[daikilo]

Although I haven't travelled the routes for some time, I agree that the best opportunities for Leeds-Manchester ill be via Huddersfield and Stalybridge. As has been noted, there are a fe opportunities for passing loops, but also an acceleration could be done in exchange for a small drop in frequency.

It is important to remember that on a line such as this with many local speed restrictions, acceleration and tilt become key. Unfortunately, lengthening trains actually slows them as the acceleration can only start when the last vehicle has left the speed restricted section.

As regards electrification, I also agree that in itself there isn't enough distance to make a significant impact unless the opportunity is taken to do trackwork at the same time, but the latter could be done even without it.

 

[matacaster]

Why not do the job properly like they would in London & SE with no regard to cost!

Absolutely straight 125mph tunnel from around Leeds Copley Hill to (I think its called) Heaton Lodge junction but avoiding that very sharp curve towards deighton where the L&YR main line goes to Sowerby and Halifax. Then 4 track all the way through Huddersfield station and through (widened to UIC ) reopend bores at Stanedge. What's not to like (apart from the cost)? http://www.railforums.co.uk/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif

 

[takno]

Although I haven't travelled the routes for some time, I agree that the best opportunities for Leeds-Manchester ill be via Huddersfield and Stalybridge. As has been noted, there are a fe opportunities for passing loops, but also an acceleration could be done in exchange for a small drop in frequency.

It is important to remember that on a line such as this with many local speed restrictions, acceleration and tilt become key. Unfortunately, lengthening trains actually slows them as the acceleration can only start when the last vehicle has left the speed restricted section.

As regards electrification, I also agree that in itself there isn't enough distance to make a significant impact unless the opportunity is taken to do trackwork at the same time, but the latter could be done even without it.

You probably don't want heavy tilt technology on a train you need to regularly accelerate and go up hills

 

[daikilo]

You probably don't want heavy tilt technology on a train you need to regularly accelerate and go up hills

Well, Pendolino's seem to work well over Shap and Beatock and through all the curves either side.

That said, I mentioned it as a possible way to reduce journey times, which it would do if sufficient power is installed, and this may be the link to electrification.

 

[paul1609]

Why not do the job properly like they would in London & SE with no regard to cost!

Absolutely straight 125mph tunnel from around Leeds Copley Hill to (I think its called) Heaton Lodge junction but avoiding that very sharp curve towards deighton where the L&YR main line goes to Sowerby and Halifax. Then 4 track all the way through Huddersfield station and through (widened to UIC ) reopend bores at Stanedge. What's not to like (apart from the cost)? http://www.railforums.co.uk/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif

London maybe but transpennine services would need to be considerably downgraded to bring them in to line with other inter urban services in the southeast:
Brighton- Portsmouth (same distance as Leeds Manchester) 31.74mph with no toilets air con or heating in winter utilising life expired London Suburban stock.
Brighton- Southampton (same distance as Leeds Warrington) 35.1mph

 

[louis97]

If they want to speed up times how about ditching the ridiculous notion of running tains not stopping at Durham through the platform at Durham! (Or at Darlington for that matter)

That made me laugh when I did that the other weekend, the train has no extra time to do it, you just eat into the engineering allowance after Durham. So if you are late you stay late or get later! Its because the planners have left the platform number in, and as the area is Automatic Route Setting it follows the schedule! I'm surprised TPE haven't picked up on it yet, must result in some PPM failures where they could not of been surely.

Darlington is a bit different given using the Down Main conflicts with the departing up services from the station, and at least the schedules allow time for going through the platforms.

 

[billio]

I don't agree that the aim of upgrading railways in the north is all about getting from Leeds to Manchester and back as quickly as possible. This is not necessarily the best objective. In my opinion this upgrade is better focused on the parts of the north with substantial populations and poor railways services into a fast railway network. Speeding up existing journeys as a useful addition.

Currently, there isn't really any alternative to rail for a fast journey between the centres of Manchester and Leeds based on existing timings. If faster journeys are provided it is only going to impact on existing road travel if there is better, speedy public transport from the main stations to the suburbs and surrounding towns, which largely doesn't exist. The better approach is upgrading the overall network and in particular focusing on the backwaters that don't have good heavy rail services, or in the case of some large towns any heavy rail services at all.

So I would support the idea of speeding up the services by the construction of a tunnel from somewhere around Littleborough to the Rishworth valley, but I would not make any attempt to use the old branch. I would keep the line at a high level, crossing the Calder valley on an impressive high viaduct and running in another tunnel to Halifax and then on to Bradford. Perhaps the line should miss the centre of Bradford, providing a station at Laisterdyke (connected to the centre by trams) and then on to Leeds. Improving speeds with such a line will make a significant difference to the services offered in places such as Rochdale, which could service Oldham and Bury, Halifax and Bradford. At the same time, this approach speeds up services between Manchester and Leeds.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

You probably don't want heavy tilt technology on a train you need to regularly accelerate and go up hills

see previous in this thread taling aobut the upgrading of some routes in the area to 90 (SP) - meaning the heavy and hgher powered none tilt ( 180s, 185s notne tilt members the voayager/ meridian/pioneer family ) wouldn;t be albe to use those limits

 

[matacaster]

How about reconnecting TP route towards Manchester (past Stanedge) towards Oldham, thus avoiding bad curve at Stalybidge?

 

[Boysteve]

Given current infrastructure I would expect that either alternative route would be slower, certainly on diversions, when Stalybridge was closed a few years ago non stop Leeds - Man Vic via Brighouse and Calder valley were around 1h20m

No! Last summer I did Leeds to Man Vic twice via Brighouse and Hebden Bridge in around 50 minutes on a Sunday. I even made reference to this on a different thread. The return working took longer due to the pathing of other stopping services.

 

[snowball]

How about reconnecting TP route towards Manchester (past Stanedge) towards Oldham, thus avoiding bad curve at Stalybidge?

Using the now released ex-Metrolink formation round the south of Oldham town centre you could get almost to Featherstall Road. Not sure where you'd go then.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Using the now released ex-Metrolink formation round the south of Oldham town centre you could get almost to Featherstall Road. Not sure where you'd go then.

I was wondering if matacaster had that part of the former Delph Donkey line from Greenfield through Lees and then at Oldham Clegg Street, (not the tunnel line through Oldham Central and Oldham Werneth) down the line of the Oldham, Ashton and Guide Bridge Railway.

 

[RochdalePioneers]

Feels like there are two options for a revamped Transpennine service.
1. A HS3 option serving Liverpool Manchester Leeds and York/Hull only - in which case a fabulously expensive base tunnel option under the Pennines feels like the one lynne option, or
2. A rebuilt Transpennine core route offering both fast city only stopping and also semi-abstract running to serve at least some of the principle towns in the middle - Warrington, Huddersfield, Halifax, Bradford

Both Standedge and Calder Valley have significant sections of quadrified trackbed, both routes also have ridiculous and expensive to bypass pinch points. If accelerating this was easy to do they'd have done it by now...

Sent from my SM-T810 using Tapatalk

 

[Buspilot]

that part of the former Delph Donkey line from Greenfield through Lees and then at Oldham Clegg Street, (not the tunnel line through Oldham Central and Oldham Werneth) down the line of the Oldham, Ashton and Guide Bridge Railway.

Unfortunately Paul, not possible as much house building on the former railway on this route and essential viaducts demolished. My first house which I purchased in 1972, was built on the site that had been Lees (Oldham) steam shed.

 

[Altfish]

London maybe but transpennine services would need to be considerably downgraded to bring them in to line with other inter urban services in the southeast:
Brighton- Portsmouth (same distance as Leeds Manchester) 31.74mph with no toilets air con or heating in winter utilising life expired London Suburban stock.
Brighton- Southampton (same distance as Leeds Warrington) 35.1mph

You are not really comparing the towns of Brighton and Portsmouth/Southampton with the cities of Manchester and Leeds?
You should be comparing Brighton - Portsmouth to Blackpool - Southport

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Piccadilly-Stalybridge is actually half a mile shorter than Victoria-SYB.
The closed Spen Valley route was 2 miles further than via Dewsbury.
The Huddersfield route needs tilt for 90mph running but nobody wants to talk about tilt.
Allthough one day after 2026 390/221s will come free from the WCML.
Plus loops and some 4-tracking.
Hopefully Northern Powerhouse Rail will sort it out.

 

[snowball]

Hopefully Northern Powerhouse Rail will sort it out.

Does anybody know when the next NPR report is due? It would be nice to begin to get some level of detail about the options.

 

[xotGD]

With some services timetabled to spend 5 minutes sat in the platform at York and a further 5 minutes sat in the platform at Leeds, I can see a simple way to shave 7-8 minutes off the journey time.

 

[DarloRich]

Electrification, re signalling and track fiddling is all that can, realistically be done to increase time within the existing envelope.

With some services timetabled to spend 5 minutes sat in the platform at York and a further 5 minutes sat in the platform at Leeds, I can see a simple way to shave 7-8 minutes off the journey time.

at the risk of reducing recovery time, reducing attaching and detaching times and increasing the risk of penalty payments?

 

[lejog]

Does anybody know when the next NPR report is due? It would be nice to begin to get some level of detail about the options.

Initial cost estimates were due in the Rail North Autumn 2016 report, which AFAIK hasn't been issued yet.