Manchester TIF part 2

[Mojo]

Unfortunately the people of Greater Manchester have just voted against new trams and routes, new buses, improved stations, more carriages on trains and an integrated ticketing system.

There was an awful amount of scaremongering from those who just mentioned the demand management and nothing of the improvements that would have come before and afterwards.

 

[anthony263]

I say that the people who voted no to congestion charging are a bunch of idiots.

we should ideally find ways to force people out of their cars .


i am studying atransport management dgree at uni at the moment and i have looked into congestiion charging and i think all of the people who complain about it are just to lazy to use public transport. i even heard from someone who says that she didnt have good public transport yet she gets a bus through her street every 12 minutes.


before people start moaning i dont use a car and always use public transport to get around, especially since i dont pay as i work for my local bus operator.

i will say that there may be a use for private transport, but people shouldnt complain when see levels rise etc as they only have themselves to blame.

 

[Mojo]

There has to be a good alternative to the private car. That's why I think at the moment somewhere like Bristol or Cambridge would be unsuitable. In my opinion, standard buses aren't a suitable alternative.

However, the plans for Manchester come across as really exciting. Already over 50% of people in the morning peak into Manchester use public transport and better trams and trains would really make a huge difference.

 

[theblackwatch]

Unfortunately the people of Greater Manchester have just voted against new trams and routes, new buses, improved stations, more carriages on trains and an integrated ticketing system.

There was an awful amount of scaremongering from those who just mentioned the demand management and nothing of the improvements that would have come before and afterwards.

Did you notice all the "new trams and routes, new buses, improved stations, more carriages on trains" that were introduced in London when the congestion charge came in there?

One thing they are getting is a nice new shiny Metrolink on the Oldham Loop, which means local residents will have to use rail replacement buses (which will probably take twice as long) or find their own transport for 2 years. Athe the end, they end find that they have services with no toilets and half the number of seats (but, to be fair, twice the capacity - tho' you'll have to stand!), and through tickets to the National Rail network from their local stations have disappeared. Is this an attempt to encourange people to use public transport?

 

[markem41]

Unfortunately the people of Greater Manchester have just voted against new trams and routes, new buses, improved stations, more carriages on trains and an integrated ticketing system.

There was an awful amount of scaremongering from those who just mentioned the demand management and nothing of the improvements that would have come before and afterwards.

To be fair, many people in Greater Manchester read the TIF proposals in great detail and based their decision to vote 'No' on the details contained within.

The major issue being raised is why, when we have bus, train and tram operators running public transport services, do we have to resort to charging any peak-time motorist crossing the M60 a fee to then pass on to the operators to improve the services they are contracted to run?

 

[Guinness]

I was against the Congestion Charge simply because the Zone was too big. There are many people in my local area who live outside of Greater Manchester but inside of the M60 and in Central Manchester that would of been subjected to up to £1200 extra a year. The public transport provided by GMPTE is above average and that's if your willing to get stabbed by a Turkish Immigrant at 6.30pm.. However any journies made outside of the GMPTE Area then the Public Transport gets worse the further you are away from Manchester. From I'm living at the moment is served by decent Bus Links into Town but it would take me approx an hour to get into Manchester in Rush hour where as it would take 45 minutes in the Car and I wouldn't have to be on any seriously overcrowded buses and trains. That's why I'm against the congestion charge.

Stockport were all against the charge because the Town would be split into two simply because the M60 ran through it, similar case with Wythenshawe. The media dubbed this as the 'Berlin Wall'. Trafford were against it again because the Trafford Centre is there major employer of the area and a charge would have an effect on Businesses Trading. Although I believe there were revisions mean that Trafford were exempt until the Metrolink was built. Half the people who shop there are nowhere near a Metrolink Station, like me.

There were issues if you lived just outside the M60 but had to cross it if you dropping Children off at a school just inside the Area, up to £1000 just to drive a few miles down the road. There are many similar issues like this, the Tag and Beacon system had it's flaws too..

To me it was doomed to fail. But I feel the TIF could still work before Congestion Charging needs to mentioned.

• TfL style Bus Networks, Stagecoach have bought out all the Independent Bus Operators in it's operating area e.g. Maynes, Bullocks etc. Competition clearly doesn't work as what happened to UK North. First and Stagecoach are unwilling to cross into each others operating areas, completely against what the Government would thought would happen with deregulation in the 80s.
• Fare caps on Public Transport, Bus Fares are ridiculous but this issue isn't one that is unique to Manchester. This is clearly a Reputation that puts the Public of Commutting everyday.
• Metrolink Big Bang clearly has to be built, this would take a lot of Cars of the Road so we need someone to pull their finger out and just pay for the bloody thing!
• A more 'unified' Transport system for Manchesters, I'd personally like to see a Wayfarer Style Smartcard similar to Oyster which is been worked on.

This loan style Goverment just doesn't work. You can't expect £3bn worth of improvements to be fully paided for in the Short Term. This just needs to be funding provided and built, nothing more.

 

[ffcphone]

I voted "yes" to the proposal but only after some careful deliberation and with some selfish motives at heart.

I used to be a real petrolhead who enjoyed driving everywhere. However, having fallen out of love with driving, probably due to the amount of traffic everywhere and the cost of motoring (fuel, VED, insurance, depreciation, servicing, etc) I sold my car mid-2008 having hardly used it the preceeding 12 months.

I have commuted from my home in Bolton to my work in Preston for the best part of 3 years now using a combination of bus, train and shoe leather and enjoyed every minute of it other than when it's been raining AND windy. One by itself I can cope with but both and my umbrella can't!

Anyhow, I was looking forward to an "express" bus service between Bolton and Manchester - why on earth they can't implement one now I don't know but the best part of an hour seems completely stupid.

I was interested in the TIF proposal to read about "extra carriages on trains" and certain improvements to the likes of Bolton bus and train stations. However, the problem I found was that everything was too vague. At no time did I ever manage to ascertain which trains would be lengthened, what precise improvements would be made, etc.

Of course, being vague is key to proving you've delivered something what you haven't!

Nevertheless, purely on the hope of an Oyster style ticketing system and fast buses to Manchester (I already have a GMPTE Bus Card so it infuriates me when I have to pay to travel by train or take a 45-70 minute bus journey for "free"), I voted "yes".

Mind you, I didn't see what difference it would make to congestion. The M61 from Bolton to the concrete tunnels is often at a crawl in the morning and I strongly suspect most motorists caught up in it don't do so for fun rather a necessity to get to work. If they could leave later and miss the traffic, they would already be doing it. So enforcing a charge on these motorists would just mean they were poorer and still held up in traffic.

I was also concerned at the amount of the TIF being dedicated to further Metrolink extensions which serve a very specific area and don't benefit the wider GMPTE area as a whole. North West Greater Manchester don't have Metrolink nor are there plans for it. The tram system is already criticised for being hugely over-subscribed at peak times thereby showing the success of the system in attracting people although I suspect if they were to run 6 car vehicles, it would attract even more if they knew a seat was readily available.

The myriad of ticketing types available across GMTPE is also bizarre. Whilst the System One venture is to be applauded (and I can travel all over GMPTE by bus for only £26 a month) I've yet to see a bus driver actually check the validity of my ticket. Although I show them as I board, there can not be sufficient time for them to ascertain the type of ticket (whether valid on bus, train, tram) and the dates of validity. Then of course bus companies issue all day "any bus" and such tickets printed on their own bus receipt paper which makes it even harder. An Oyster-type system would clearly bring great benefits in terms of revenue protection and ease of use but is no doubt prohibitively expensive to install.

So without TIF funds, I guess it's back to papering over the cracks!

F

 

[Metroland]

All goes back to the 60s planning (which was far too obsessed with ideas from America with their oodles of space) when we should have been adopting European models - the cities mostly the result of life before the car. Its going to take a lot of money to turn around. No congestion charging is going to solve it without serious carrots and good planning because people remain sceptical. That means spending the money anyway, cheap fares and good planning. Most people don't believe any of the above 3 will occur. I'm fairly sure China and India won't be making the same mistakes.

 

[Stonesourscotty]

FFCPhone a Bolton-Manchester Express has been Implemented X61-Manchester it's been Running for Many a Year but loadings never seem High It's Operated by Preston i think as X2 Vehicles occasionally cover Coaches.

 

[The_Rail_WAy]

To be fair Bolton is well served by public transport, I remember being told that it is one of the best served towns (in terms of railways) in the UK, with a wide variety of lines and stations. Not bad in comparison to other towns in Greater Manchester which are poorly served in comparison - such a Leigh which has no railway line, station or metrolink!

 

[Techniquest]

Given the choice (not a GMPTE resident), I'd have voted no too. The scheme was too much about chinging road users and giving most of it to Metroching. My experiences with Metroching on Saturday (their pathetic attempts at telling people when their trams is absurd) put me off using them again. Couldn't get a seat, no information on how long Victoria to Piccadilly would take (I ended up walking to Shudehill when I noticed the tram was due in 7 minutes, so went for it in the end. No information on journey times here either), when it was due and a slow journey (it would have been just as quick on a bus), no thanks not unless I need to next time.

I'm personally glad the Manchester area turned it down, it was doomed and all of the reasons Chaz has already posted are perfect examples of why the people turned it down.

However, I would agree that an Oyster-like system would be very useful in Greater Manchester. Can't see it happening any time soon, but there we go.

 

[The_Rail_WAy]

Totally agree with you there techniquest, 'NO' was the best decison. This is the great thing about living in a modern-day democracy, the public have a say on an important issue that WILL affect them - and in this instance they responded with a resounding 'NO.' I think it is a good reason because:

The gvt have been promising improvements to public transport in Greater Manchester for years, increasing legnth of trains, etc etc and never produced - understandably the public lost faith in the governments future proposals and this for me was the main factor.

 

[ffcphone]

FFCPhone a Bolton-Manchester Express has been Implemented X61-Manchester it's been Running for Many a Year but loadings never seem High It's Operated by Preston i think as X2 Vehicles occasionally cover Coaches.

Thanks for that info although on further investigation, there's actually no stopping point in Bolton itself. Horwich would appear to be the closest at the Beehive roundabout presumably before it goes onto the M61. That would explain why it's never featured in any planning tools I've used.

Additionally, 40 minutes Horwich to Shudehill's not that much of an express. Bolton Bus Station to central Manchester is around 45-60 mins off peak on something like a First Bus 8 or 37 going round the houses.

Interesting nonetheless, thanks again.

F
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

To be fair Bolton is well served by public transport, I remember being told that it is one of the best served towns (in terms of railways) in the UK, with a wide variety of lines and stations. Not bad in comparison to other towns in Greater Manchester which are poorly served in comparison - such a Leigh which has no railway line, station or metrolink!

As a Bolton resident for over 5 years now I must agree with this. Bolton town/city centre itself is only served by the one station, Bolton, but this is served by TPE's Manchester Airport - Blackpool/Glasgow/Edinburgh services along with TPE's Manchester Airport - Blackpool North service. Then there's Northern's Blackpool to Hazel Grove service in addition to services from Southport and Wigan to Manchester Victoria and Manchester Airport. There's also Victoria to Blackburn, Clitheroe and Colne services too.

Bolton's bus network is also pretty extensive and again there are a number of frequent services into Manchester, Wigan, etc.

So good are the transport links I sold my car mid-2008 and am now totally reliant on public transport. Apart from the odd day when it's windy and raining, not regretted that decision one bit.

F
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Given the choice (not a GMPTE resident), I'd have voted no too. The scheme was too much about chinging road users and giving most of it to Metroching. My experiences with Metroching on Saturday (their pathetic attempts at telling people when their trams is absurd) put me off using them again. Couldn't get a seat, no information on how long Victoria to Piccadilly would take (I ended up walking to Shudehill when I noticed the tram was due in 7 minutes, so went for it in the end. No information on journey times here either), when it was due and a slow journey (it would have been just as quick on a bus), no thanks not unless I need to next time.

I'm personally glad the Manchester area turned it down, it was doomed and all of the reasons Chaz has already posted are perfect examples of why the people turned it down.

However, I would agree that an Oyster-like system would be very useful in Greater Manchester. Can't see it happening any time soon, but there we go.

Metrolink's systems to keep passengers/customers (!) informed of live running information is a little haphazard. Away from the busy city centre stations, the scrolling display panels are rarely found and if present are sometimes platform dependant. On numerous occasions I've noted "ghost" trams which seem stuck and never get any closer. Messages over the loud speaker from the Metrolink Control Centre are also fairly unhelpful in content unless you are familiar with the system, that's if you can understand the voice at all of course!

As for journey times, this kind of information might be available online or buried deep within the unfriendly posters on the platform. I've used the Eccles line quite a lot in both directions and must say the journey time as painfully slow. I believe a bus is actually quicker to the extremeties of the line from what I've read due to the routing of the tram and the number of stops.

The ticket machines are a pain to deal with. My fiancee and I travel to Old Trafford together frequently and it amazes me there is no method of purchasing multiple tickets in a single transaction. Each ticket must be laboriously purchased individually.

Mind you, it seems to be somewhat of a success at encouraging people out of their cars and is quite dated now so perhaps we shouldn't overly knock it.

F

 

[The_Rail_WAy]

ffcphone - I believe there were plans to extend the metrolink into Bolton but it was deemed unfeasable so there were plans to improve the station instead. Are these plans in fruition yet? With all due respect for a town that size it deserves a much better station.

 

[ffcphone]

ffcphone - I believe there were plans to extend the metrolink into Bolton but it was deemed unfeasable so there were plans to improve the station instead. Are these plans in fruition yet? With all due respect for a town that size it deserves a much better station.

"Improve" is always a good word. In H2 2008 Bolton station got a lick of point and the painters were clumsy enough to splash it all over the place. The white paint used on the overhanging platform "canopy" is splashed over the platforms in various areas.

More recently they've re-done the floor coverings on the over-bridge and the stairs leading to the platforms.

Late 2007/early 2008 new platform display screens were installed to replace the previous TV monitor style things. Mind you, the one closest to Manchester on platform 4 hasn't work for some weeks now.

There's no CCTV at Bolton station and the train announcements are often unhelpful to all but locals such is the speed the detail is rattled off.

There are lifts to all platforms but the indicators showing where the lifts are currently haven't worked for a while now!

Would I class these as improvements or merely "doing up" the existing station!

F

 

[The_Rail_WAy]

No thats poor - as I said - dissapointing for such a large town.

 

[markem41]

Metrolink...Messages over the loud speaker from the Metrolink Control Centre are also fairly unhelpful in content...

"Whilst most services are running normally, some passengers may experience delays of up to 12 minutes"

What more information do you need when you're waiting for a tram?

 

[ffcphone]

"Whilst most services are running normally, some passengers may experience delays of up to 12 minutes"

What more information do you need when you're waiting for a tram?

I'd quite like to know when the next one is due not how long I MAY have to wait.

F

 

[Jubilee1996]

those who complained--- They are just too poor to own their car