London Bridge - Brighton: Thameslink or Southern?

[magd1272]

Forgive me if this is a daft question, but are the xx:42 LBG - BTN trains at weekends operated by Thameslink or Southern? Both realtime trains and trainline say it's a Thameslink service, so I bought and used a Thameslink only ticket. However, the automatic gates at LBG wouldn't let me through (showed my ticket to a gateline assistant, who opened the gates) and the on-train auto announcements referred to the Southern service. The train was a Southern branded 377, but as these are also used on Thameslink services I thought nothing of it.

I'm genuinely confused, and keen not to use the wrong service on my return journey. Thanks in advance for any replies!

 

[IslandDweller]

GoVia operate all the trains and they play fast and loose with brand names on this route. I've seen trains formed where half the train is in Thameslink colours and half in Southern. It is nigh on impossible for mere mortals to understand what is going on.
Should a guard challenge you, just politely point out that you checked ahead and the service was shown as TL.

 

[magd1272]

GoVia operate all the trains and they play fast and loose with brand names on this route. I've seen trains formed where half the train is in Thameslink colours and half in Southern. It is nigh on impossible for mere mortals to understand what is going on.
Should a guard challenge you, just politely point out that you checked ahead and the service was shown as TL.

Thank you, and that's what I'd planned to do if challenged. To make things more complicated, their website clearly says that although everything is owned by GTR, you still can't use Thameslink-only tickets on Southern or vice. So confusing!

 

[Railsigns]

I have no idea which stations the codes LBG or BTN refer to.

 

[Roast Veg]

London Bridge and Brighton

 

[magd1272]

I have no idea which stations the codes LBG or BTN refer to.

London Bridge / Brighton. Sorry, was trying to keep the thread title short!

 

[Nean]

Yeah, I had to get a train from London Bridge to Three Bridges in the summer. It was listed as Thameslink on National Rail, RTT, and on the station PIS but then was (as mentioned) a Southern 377 with all the trimmings.

It being my first trip on Southern/Thameslink as well as first time going south out of London it did test my faith in the systems a touch!

 

[Surreytraveller]

Well, if a passenger doesn't who is operating the train, in the unlikely event of an OBS making an appearance they aren't going to know either.

 

[yorkie]

Forgive me if this is a daft question, but are the xx:42 LBG - BTN trains at weekends operated by Thameslink or Southern?

They are operated by Govia Thameslink Railway.

Southern is merely a brand name used by that company.

Both realtime trains and trainline say it's a Thameslink service, so I bought and used a Thameslink only ticket. However, the automatic gates at LBG wouldn't let me through (showed my ticket to a gateline assistant, who opened the gates) and the on-train auto announcements referred to the Southern service. The train was a Southern branded 377, but as these are also used on Thameslink services I thought nothing of it.

I'm genuinely confused, and keen not to use the wrong service on my return journey. Thanks in advance for any replies!

It's all the same company. The ticketing settlement agreement allows for company-restricted fares but has no provision for brand-restricted fares. See www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=2736554t#post2736554

Some staff at London Bridge falsely claim that Southern is a separate company. If you wish to avoid an argument with them, buy a St Pancras - Brighton fare routed "Not Underground": http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=STP&dest=BTN&rte=208&tkt=CBB

 

[bengley]

They're Thameslink services using Southern stock. Thameslink drivers drive and Thameslink revenue staff patrol the trains

 

[xc170]

I had this exact problem in May last year brought a ThamesLink London Bridge - Brighton ticket, train advised as TL on RTT, no operator info on the station displays oddly and operated using a Southern 377.

On the return journey from Brighton, being slightly concerned about getting the wrong service and being fined by the gestapo I asked at the info desk, they advised me that the service I planned to get back into London was a TL service so fine to use my ticket, but I then double checked with the ticket office who said no it's Southern. No doubt if checked by an inspector I'd be in the wrong either way.

As an enthusiast I like to think I'm fairly knowledgeable on who operates what but this really threw me... I have no idea how normal passengers cope.

 

[Abpj17]

(only a passenger)

I believe it's Southern. It's oft repeated that Thameslink trains aren't calling at London Bridge during the various works.

 

[yorkie]

(only a passenger)

I believe it's Southern. It's oft repeated that Thameslink trains aren't calling at London Bridge during the various works.

Despite the fact that trains on the Thameslink (geographic) route aren't calling at London Bridge currently, Govia Thameslink is required to brand these services as "Thameslink" rather than "Southern".

It is confusing; no other train company uses multiple brand names in this way. The practice should cease. Brands like "Southern" should be a suffix applied after the train company name.

I believe the situation is deliberately confusing to mislead some passengers into paying more money for more expensive tickets, that contractually and legally offer no additional validity.

 

[Joe Paxton]

(only a passenger)

I believe it's Southern. It's oft repeated that Thameslink trains aren't calling at London Bridge during the various works.

No, it's a Thameslink service:

Brighton to London Timetable

The National Rail journey planner results and LDBs are accurate and show which are Thameslink and which are Southern services, ditto station PIS.

 

[paul1609]

I imagine that it's only because of the dispute and the Thameslink disruption that these tickets still exist.
All the Coastway tickets that were previously "Southern Only" have now become Route Three Bridges (West Coastway) or Haywards Heath (East).

 

[Joe Paxton]

I imagine that it's only because of the dispute and the Thameslink disruption that these tickets still exist.
All the Coastway tickets that were previously "Southern Only" have now become Route Three Bridges (West Coastway) or Haywards Heath (East).

I did read a comment from someone who had been to an early GTR meet the manager session, where it was suggested that separate Southern and Thameslink fares would 'become aligned' over a period of time - which rather sounds like Thameslink-only fares would eventually be abolished, something that wouldn't be popular amongst TL-only season ticket holders nor amongst those leisure users who take advantage of the low TL-only fares.

So perhaps you're right - GTR are unpopular enough, so they're leaving that fight to one side for the moment.

 

[yorkie]

Time to bring out this article from 2014 again:
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/road-and-rail-transport//Rail-passengers-hit-with-664-fare-rise.html

“When we move from two operators to one on the line, as part of a better franchise deal providing new trains and better services, fares will be gradually equalised. This will be carefully managed to ensure commuters travelling on the discounted First Capital Connect-only fare do not face sharp fare rises."

DfT know TL only fares are valid on all the company's trains, as per the legal framework governing fares in this country, so don't want them to be around for too long, as they risk losing out on revenue if too many people realise this.

GTR are unpopular enough, so they're leaving that fight to one side for the moment.

GTR don't care about reputation but they do as they're told by DfT.

 

[Fincra5]

Simply put Thameslink borrow some Southern units throughout the day on the Brighton to London Bridge services as it frees up more OHLE equipped trains for TLK core routes.

RPI's or Customers Hosts as thay are now becoming on Thameslink have given up on the idea on challenging people on these TLK services with SN-Only tickets as everything about the service looks Southern! But its run by Thameslink.

 

[mrmatt]

It is confusing; no other train company uses multiple brand names in this way. The practice should cease. Brands like "Southern" should be a suffix applied after the train company name.

I was always under the impression that they had to keep the operations separate to allow them to be easily split into two franchises again after the thameslink programme work completed and the franchise next goes to tender. In which case it was simply easier to maintain the current branding?

 

[Joe Paxton]

DfT know TL only fares are valid on all the company's trains, as per the legal framework governing fares in this country, so don't want them to be around for too long, as they risk losing out on revenue if too many people realise this.

Of course there's the 'information box' in the new NR Conditions of Travel regarding which butts up against this, but I appreciate the argument that the TSA doesn't account for this.

In practice most people aren't going to be willing to have a regular fight over their ticket validity by travelling on a Southern branded train with a TL-only ticket, especially if it's a season ticket. Of course some of the denizens of this forum aren't necessarily 'most people'!

One quick comment re the fares and leisure travel - travelling from London to Brighton, compared to the reverse, the difference in fares is even more pronounced - there's no any permitted (i.e. valid on Southern) Super Off-Peak Day Return fare as there is in the opposite direction, just the Off-Peak Day Return of £27.60. Which doesn't compare too well with the £17.60 TL-only Off-Peak Day Return, let alone the weekend only £10.80 Off-Peak Day Return (no time restrictions). No surprise which one savvy travellers go for. (Those who aren't up for an argument at least!)

Obviously season ticket holders carry the bulk of the political weight in terms of influence on fares, but even the removal of these leisure fares would kick up a fuss - so whilst GTR might not care, the DfT might not be up for it, not at the moment at least.

 

[yorkie]

Simply put Thameslink borrow some Southern units throughout the day on the Brighton to London Bridge services as it frees up more OHLE equipped trains for TLK core routes.

RPI's or Customers Hosts as thay are now becoming on Thameslink have given up on the idea on challenging people on these TLK services with SN-Only tickets as everything about the service looks Southern! But its run by Thameslink.

All trains on this route are 'run' (operated) by the same company, Govia Thameslink.

It's not really 'borrowing'; more allocating (as it's within the same train company).

I am glad to hear GTR staff aren't claiming that their own fares are not valid on their own trains, contrary to the TSA, though

I was always under the impression that they had to keep the operations separate to allow them to be easily split into two franchises again after the thameslink programme work completed and the franchise next goes to tender. In which case it was simply easier to maintain the current branding?

There is no reason why you couldn't brand them "GTR - Thameslink" and "GTR - Southern"

I think they are trying to deliberately cause brand confusion, to discourage people from buying the cheapest valid fares.

 

[Class377/5]

Seems no-one has put in the answer that both Southern and Thameslink work the Brighton to London Bridge services and it has nothing to with GTR passing around as suggested as it's a historical thing.

Brighton has had a 4tph service to London Bridge for a fairly long time now. With Thameslink having the majority of services over the day.

The difference is Thameslink used to run via London Bridge which at peak couldn't accommodation a 4tph service. So as a result was that you had a 2tph Thameslink service routed via Herne Hill with Southern branded services then filling in the London Bridge to Brighton section during peak only.

Now with the major works at London Bridge affecting the high level meant no Thameslink services between London Bridge and Blackfriars, all Brighton/Gatwick services were diverted all day via Herne Hill which increases journey times. As a result this means it requires more units to supply the service with Thameslink how having the 6tph through Gatwick.

As a result, it was decided that Southern would lend Thameslink DC only 377 outside peak to provide units to cover the shortage. As a result we now have some limited off peak services on Thameslink using Southern branded stock. Now this stock will announce itself as Southern not Thameslink due to the way the PIS software is designed. To change it would require a unit out of services for many hours between changing hands on Southern and Thameslink. Now as the units are handed between Southern and Thameslink operations on the platform at Brighton, this is impossible.

This also applies at weekends as to have only TL units on Brighton to London Bridge would require higher mileages the fleet cannot accommodate without either buying more units (currently being done) or reducing the service on weekdays (ie removing whole trains in peak). The 700s will see the Brighton to London Bridge services completely transferred to Thameslink before the final 2018 timechange which will see Southern never running another Brighton to London Bridge train again.

So rather than the GTR bashing the forum likes to do at every chance, the situation is one where the best is being made of a situation. No other company running this would have done anything different as it's a techinal issue on how the 377 fleet is built that means they cannot change TOCs. Seems even Mods on here have been swept up in the anti GTR thought from Yorkie's post above choosing to use opinion rather than facts as a basis of attack. And yes he is wrong as he trying to claim an engineering limitation as a marketing scam!

 

[Class377/5]

I did read a comment from someone who had been to an early GTR meet the manager session, where it was suggested that separate Southern and Thameslink fares would 'become aligned' over a period of time - which rather sounds like Thameslink-only fares would eventually be abolished, something that wouldn't be popular amongst TL-only season ticket holders nor amongst those leisure users who take advantage of the low TL-only fares.

So perhaps you're right - GTR are unpopular enough, so they're leaving that fight to one side for the moment.

Actually that was the DfT who said it before franchise award.

The idea was Thameslink had lower fares on the basis of using 319s where Southern had air conditioned 377s so there was rightly a price difference.

However with the TLP upgrade and the DfT ordering trans for the franchise to run they think it is only right that Thameslink fares rise in line with Southern. The DfT admitted this might be hard for passengers so will slowly increase the Thameslink fares over a period of years above the rest of the routes as a result. And no, GTR had no control over this.

 

[Joe Paxton]

...
As a result, it was decided that Southern would lend Thameslink DC only 377 outside peak to provide units to cover the shortage. As a result we now have some limited off peak services on Thameslink using Southern branded stock. Now this stock will announce itself as Southern not Thameslink due to the way the PIS software is designed. To change it would require a unit out of services for many hours between changing hands on Southern and Thameslink. Now as the units are handed between Southern and Thameslink operations on the platform at Brighton, this is impossible.
...

Thanks for the explanation.

Leaving aside the other issues, I think it can be understood that the layman might not really appreciate the difficulties with modifying the PIS - i.e. Q: "how hard can it be?", A: "harder than you think!".

I think one can reasonably raise the issue of why a train's PIS software is designed in a way that making what on the face of it seems to be a simple modification is actually so difficult!

 

[adrock1976]

So rather than the GTR bashing the forum likes to do at every chance, the situation is one where the best is being made of a situation. No other company running this would have done anything different as it's a techinal issue on how the 377 fleet is built that means they cannot change TOCs. Seems even Mods on here have been swept up in the anti GTR thought from Yorkie's post above choosing to use opinion rather than facts as a basis of attack. And yes he is wrong as he trying to claim an engineering limitation as a marketing scam!

Regarding the last 2 sentences, I do not believe for one moment that the moderators, including Yorkie, have become swept up in anti GTR at all.

Where the issue is is that the branded routes are being dressed up as companies, which no longer exist. Gatwick Express got merged into the Southern TOC in 2008, with GatEx no longer being a TOC. In 2016, First Capital Connect (Thameslink and Great Northern arm) and Southern were merged into one TOC and called Govia Thameslink Railway, with Great Northern, Southern, and Thameslink ceasing to exist as TOCs.

The above is similar as to how Glasgow Rangers Football Club have not existed since the end of the season in 2012, when they went into liquidation after being caught operating a tax dodging scam. Enter Charles Green (the "saviour" of Sheffield United who trousered a lot of money and left them in a worse state than to start with) who set up Sevco and applied to the Scottish FA for membership as a new club. Sevco then became The Rangers, and now presently known as Rangers International Football Club.

 

[Sacro]

Of course there's the 'information box' in the new NR Conditions of Travel regarding which butts up against this, but I appreciate the argument that the TSA doesn't account for this.

We have included a number of ‘Information’ panels to help you understand the
meaning of certain Conditions. Please note that these panels are not intended to
have contractual effect and do not form part of our contract with you.

I find it best to just ignore them.

 

[Bishopstone]

The 700s will see the Brighton to London Bridge services completely transferred to Thameslink before the final 2018 timechange which will see Southern never running another Brighton to London Bridge train again.

The 2018 timetable has been the subject of a recent consultation, with the feedback yet to be revealed, so isn't it a bit premature to state that Southern will never operate a London Bridge - Brighton service after that date?

Surely it's quite conceivable that one or two peak extras will continue to run using the terminus platforms at London Bridge, as now? They will be needed for capacity, if Thameslink persist in allocating 8-car 700s to peak Brighton trains.

 

[paul1609]

Time to bring out this article from 2014 again:
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/road-and-rail-transport//Rail-passengers-hit-with-664-fare-rise.html

DfT know TL only fares are valid on all the company's trains, as per the legal framework governing fares in this country, so don't want them to be around for too long, as they risk losing out on revenue if too many people realise this.


GTR don't care about reputation but they do as they're told by DfT.

Of course if GTR is one TOC as they own the flow they are not allowed to undercut the Any Permitted Fare so the Thameslink Only Fares should have been abolished on the day of the merger.

 

[JonathanH]

Of course if GTR is one TOC as they own the flow they are not allowed to undercut the Any Permitted Fare so the Thameslink Only Fares should have been abolished on the day of the merger.

That would have provoked something of a media backlash wouldn't it. Off peak fares rise 170% overnight because the artificial competition on the Brighton line has ended.

And actually, if the future rolling stock on Brighton services on the Thameslink side is 12-car 700s all day there is rather more spare capacity on them than on the Southern services.

 

[Class377/5]

Thanks for the explanation.

Leaving aside the other issues, I think it can be understood that the layman might not really appreciate the difficulties with modifying the PIS - i.e. Q: "how hard can it be?", A: "harder than you think!".

I think one can reasonably raise the issue of why a train's PIS software is designed in a way that making what on the face of it seems to be a simple modification is actually so difficult!

The basic issue is the 377 is run on a computer consider not top of the line 20 years ago. Ripping them out and upgrading to a new computer (like the 387s have) would be very expensive.

Regarding the last 2 sentences, I do not believe for one moment that the moderators, including Yorkie, have become swept up in anti GTR at all.

Where the issue is is that the branded routes are being dressed up as companies, which no longer exist. Gatwick Express got merged into the Southern TOC in 2008, with GatEx no longer being a TOC. In 2016, First Capital Connect (Thameslink and Great Northern arm) and Southern were merged into one TOC and called Govia Thameslink Railway, with Great Northern, Southern, and Thameslink ceasing to exist as TOCs.

The above is similar as to how Glasgow Rangers Football Club have not existed since the end of the season in 2012, when they went into liquidation after being caught operating a tax dodging scam. Enter Charles Green (the "saviour" of Sheffield United who trousered a lot of money and left them in a worse state than to start with) who set up Sevco and applied to the Scottish FA for membership as a new club. Sevco then became The Rangers, and now presently known as Rangers International Football Club.

One TOC, four separate business. However I maintain what I stated is what I believe.

The 2018 timetable has been the subject of a recent consultation, with the feedback yet to be revealed, so isn't it a bit premature to state that Southern will never operate a London Bridge - Brighton service after that date?

Surely it's quite conceivable that one or two peak extras will continue to run using the terminus platforms at London Bridge, as now? They will be needed for capacity, if Thameslink persist in allocating 8-car 700s to peak Brighton trains.

No its not premature to state this. The BML is already in its 2018 state meaning there are no extra paths. The railway is at the point anything else means everything else delays.

Remember that Southern will be running less services in December 2018 than today on the BML as a result of Thameslink taking over services. The recent consultation hasn't changed the all day Brighton to (via) London Bridge, Horsham, East Grinstead and Littlehampton take over plans but confirmed them again. These plans haven't changed for many years.

The issue of 8 car 700s on the BML is temporary as there aren't enough 12 cars in the UK to cover all services at this point but that won't stay like that. 8 cars were needed to be put into service as part of the cascade (and help with driver training for Southeastern).