Timperley/Glazebrook chords

[dewsnapsliding]

On reflection, I am in fact violently agreeing with you on point 1. (I originally misread you and thought you were proposing split services as a solution to overcrowding - sorry!)

I'm not agreeing with you on point 2 - almost all freight through 13/14 at Piccadilly is to/from Trafford Park, headed to/from the southern WCML. This is routed via Styal, so is relatively unconflicting through Piccadilly anyway.

Even with suitable chords (plural) to access the Partington/Timperley route, there's still no useful way of heading south on the WCML from here, even with the proposed Timperley chord.

Ah, that sir is where I propose to reinstate the GCR route in full!

 

[daodao]

Does anyone have any creative/outlandish ideas on how to divert that one freight train per hour off the busy Oxford Road viaduct? seems like a waste of capacity but looking at a map of the rail network as well as old abandoned alignments there doesn't seem to be any short to medium term solution.

The only access to the Trafford Park freight terminals is off the CLC line. A connection could be made off the CLC line along the trackbed of old Widnes loop to Ditton Junction, where trains could reverse to join the WCML. However, there is minimal spare capacity west of Trafford Park because of the passenger service pattern and the use of diesel traction on the CLC line, which means the stopping service is fairly slow. Even the fast passenger trains are no quicker than in 1910. Other than relocating the freight terminals, there is no obvious solution.

 

[Altfish]

I've not looked into it in great detail but I did a quick google/wiki of Cadishead Viaduct and indeed it would cost millions to repair it on its own. But other than that and the bridge over the Bridgewater Canal at Broadheath, there aren't many other obstacles.

It seems everything has to serve either Manchester or Leeds nowadays. Liverpool and Sheffield just don't get the same level of frequency, despite being of a similar size. Why not focus on improving journey times and capacity between these two cities (and other long distance routes) whilst having separate and more frequent services between Liverpool and Manchester...and between Manchester and Sheffield?

As someone who regularly travels between Oxford Road and Nottingham via Sheffield; I don't believe there is a major demand for a Liverpool to Sheffield service that avoids Manchester. The trains I board undergo and 80%+ change of passengers at Manchester, i.e. most passengers are travelling Liverpool - Manchester or Manchester - Sheffield, yes some do do Liverpool - Sheffield but a small proportion.

 

[Altfish]

Although very much 'Blue sky thinking' I have seen a document that details transport schemes that could benefit/compliment the arrival of HS2 to Manchester.
One of those schemes involved the use of the Timperley Glazebrook line as a tram-train route from Warrington to Manchester Airport.

 

[snowball]

The only access to the Trafford Park freight terminals is off the CLC line. A connection could be made off the CLC line along the trackbed of old Widnes loop to Ditton Junction, where trains could reverse to join the WCML. However, there is minimal spare capacity west of Trafford Park because of the passenger service pattern and the use of diesel traction on the CLC line, which means the stopping service is fairly slow. Even the fast passenger trains are no quicker than in 1910. Other than relocating the freight terminals, there is no obvious solution.

It has been suggested that if Peel's Port Salford rail link goes ahead, users of the Trafford Park freight terminals would relocate there. Access would then be from the WCML via the Chat Moss line.

 

[Philip]

Although very much 'Blue sky thinking' I have seen a document that details transport schemes that could benefit/compliment the arrival of HS2 to Manchester.
One of those schemes involved the use of the Timperley Glazebrook line as a tram-train route from Warrington to Manchester Airport.

Where would the connection to the Manchester Airport line be? Only thing I can think of without reversing in Manchester would be a new chord being built at Gatley.

 

[daodao]

Where would the connection to the Manchester Airport line be? Only thing I can think of without reversing in Manchester would be a new chord being built at Gatley.

There could be a link near Baguley tram stop from the CLC line to the Airport Metrolink line for a tram-train. However, the tortuous route through Wythenshawe is very slow. It is also going to be a long time before tram-train comes to Manchester, given the snail's pace of progress in the pilot Sheffield scheme. In terms of speed, nothing will compete with the M56 from Warrington to the Airport, despite the slow traffic eastbound from junction 7 in the morning rush hour.

 

[edwin_m]

There could be a link near Baguley tram stop from the CLC line to the Airport Metrolink line for a tram-train. However, the tortuous route through Wythenshawe is very slow. It is also going to be a long time before tram-train comes to Manchester, given the snail's pace of progress in the pilot Sheffield scheme. In terms of speed, nothing will compete with the M56 from Warrington to the Airport, despite the slow traffic eastbound from junction 7 in the morning rush hour.

TfGM has powers to build a western link from the airport via Wythenshawe Hospital to re-join the existing route at Roundthorn. This would considerably shorten the airport journey and also (with a slight change to the alignment) serve the proposed HS2 station on the way.

 

[furnessvale]

It has been suggested that if Peel's Port Salford rail link goes ahead, users of the Trafford Park freight terminals would relocate there. Access would then be from the WCML via the Chat Moss line.

Would that be the same Chat Moss line that hasn't the capacity to offer paths to the biomass traffic from Liverpool to Drax causing lengthy diversions?

 

[dewsnapsliding]

Would that be the same Chat Moss line that hasn't the capacity to offer paths to the biomass traffic from Liverpool to Drax causing lengthy diversions?

What is the circuitous route?

 

[daodao]

What is the circuitous route?

Via Northwich, Northenden, Denton, Todmorden!

 

[Altfish]

Where would the connection to the Manchester Airport line be? Only thing I can think of without reversing in Manchester would be a new chord being built at Gatley.

Sorry, didn't make it clear; the connection ia with HS2's airport station. The link would be at Baguley

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Ah, that sir is where I propose to reinstate the GCR route in full!

On the West Timperley station article on the Disused Railways website, one "snippet" makes mention that express trains to London St Pancras station passed through this former CLC station that lies on the route covered by this thread.

 

[Ianno87]

Would that be the same Chat Moss line that hasn't the capacity to offer paths to the biomass traffic from Liverpool to Drax causing lengthy diversions?

Port Salford trains would likely be primarily to/from the WCML, so would be less of a pathing issue.

The Drax Biomass paths have a complex cross-Manchester and cross-Pennine routeing, hence the convoluted route to drop them into the correct Calder Valley paths in between the myriad of passenger stopping patterns.

 

[Philip]

Sorry, didn't make it clear; the connection ia with HS2's airport station. The link would be at Baguley

Ah ok thanks.

I take it the express London trains through Timperley had come from Liverpool and then went through Heaton Mersey, Disley Tunnel and then took the Matlock line towards Derby?

 

[edwin_m]

Port Salford trains would likely be primarily to/from the WCML, so would be less of a pathing issue.

They would only use the Chat Moss route between the Port Salford junction and Earlestown. However I do wonder about the length of time they would be blocking the Earlestown junction, given the severe speed restriction on the curve.

 

[snowball]

Sorry, didn't make it clear; the connection ia with HS2's airport station. The link would be at Baguley

Presumably it would be to both the HS2 station and the present station. The first and most likely bit of new Metrolink to be built (after the Trafford Park line on which construction has now started) is from the present airport station to Terminal 2, part way to the HS2 station.

 

[takno]

See an example of Reading to Gatwick which it is possible to do quicker with changes, but direct is routed well out of the way via Dorking Deep Dene to maintain a direct link.

The North Downs line is a far more direct route from Reading to Gatwick than via London, it's just not an especially fast line. You could probably just about manage the same time by changing if you were particularly nippy across London and the connections worked out perfectly, but generally you'd take at least 15 minutes longer.

 

[Altfish]

Presumably it would be to both the HS2 station and the present station. The first and most likely bit of new Metrolink to be built (after the Trafford Park line on which construction has now started) is from the present airport station to Terminal 2, part way to the HS2 station.

The assumption is that when HS2 comes the 'airport loop' is completed.
To be honest the present airport station is currently nearer T2 than T1 but the loop goes under T2 and the runway near to the HS2 station, passed the Hospital and back into the existing tram line on Southmoor Road

 

[Greybeard33]

They would only use the Chat Moss route between the Port Salford junction and Earlestown. However I do wonder about the length of time they would be blocking the Earlestown junction, given the severe speed restriction on the curve.

20mph through Earlestown E Jn, I believe, so less than 90 seconds to actually traverse the junction. Plus the time to accelerate afterwards, of course - and freight is restricted to 40mph over Astley Level Crossing on Chat Moss. But 50mph through Winwick Jn from Earlestown, when crossing the WCML fasts to the Up Slow. And this route will never be as congested as Castlefield Jn.

I understand the plan is for a triangular junction between the Port Salford branch and the Chat Moss line, so there would be the alternative option of going east via Oxford Road and the Styal line to Wilmslow and Crewe, as from Trafford Park. The choice of routes should ease the pathing issues.

 

[dewsnapsliding]

The North Downs line is a far more direct route from Reading to Gatwick than via London, it's just not an especially fast line. You could probably just about manage the same time by changing if you were particularly nippy across London and the connections worked out perfectly, but generally you'd take at least 15 minutes longer.

This is sort of my point though - there is clearly the infrastructure to 'run' a service via GWML/WLL thence via Clapham junction and BML to Gatwick (and doubtless other routes) and with limited stop could be quite quick (quicker than the current Deep Dene route) but it isn't done because there isn't the capacity to permit it, and the capacity is deemed to be more important for commuter/longer-distance services into Paddington; more recently capacity on the WLL for Overground services; Clapham junction route to Gatwick more important for Gatwick Express.

Therefore, the option for towns and cities further afield to retain the direct link to a destination means that it is compromised by being more circuitous and hence slower - on lesser passenger intensively used routes.

 

[snowball]

The assumption is that when HS2 comes the 'airport loop' is completed.
To be honest the present airport station is currently nearer T2 than T1 but the loop goes under T2 and the runway near to the HS2 station, passed the Hospital and back into the existing tram line on Southmoor Road

As we're both regulars on Skyscrapercity (where I'm known as wrinkly) I would have thought we both know well enough where it will go! I'm surprised to see you say it will go under the runway. This map (posted on SSC's Airport thread by DiscoSteve on 7 Jan) shows the route from the present airport station to the M56 crossing:

http://stevenicklin.com/images/metrolink/airportcityt2metrolink2.jpg

I think there have been recent suggestions that the extension as far as Terminal 2 could happen well before HS2 or the rest of the western loop.

It's not to be confused with the possible heavy rail extension from the existing airport station to the Mid-Cheshire line, which would pass under the apron.

 

[Chester1]

Carrington is in the very early stages of being redeveloped into a business park and a village. I think heavy rail is out of the question due to lack of freight to justfy the huge cost. However, a metro or guided bus way from Timperley to into Carrington using the old freight branch and then heading northwards on a new route, could possibly be feasible. I believe the track is in place along most of the route but would need to be entirely replaced.

 

[Altfish]

As we're both regulars on Skyscrapercity (where I'm known as wrinkly) I would have thought we both know well enough where it will go! I'm surprised to see you say it will go under the runway. This map (posted on SSC's Airport thread by DiscoSteve on 7 Jan) shows the route from the present airport station to the M56 crossing:

http://stevenicklin.com/images/metrolink/airportcityt2metrolink2.jpg

I think there have been recent suggestions that the extension as far as Terminal 2 could happen well before HS2 or the rest of the western loop.

It's not to be confused with the possible heavy rail extension from the existing airport station to the Mid-Cheshire line, which would pass under the apron.

Apologies, you are of course correct, although I hadn't seen that plan before

 

[QueensCurve]

A much more useful project would be to divert the Mid-Cheshire line into a tunnel and then across to the Airport station. This isn't idle fantasy, but a real suggestion by the various bodies involved in planning rail transport at Manchester Airport.

That would certainly be a useful link both reducing journey time and providing a direct link from Chester/Mid Cheshire to the airport.

 

[Cletus]

Although in Dover, for some reason I was watching the BBC North West local news and caught part of a piece about the line.

I'm sure it'll be on the BBC website somewhere.

Includes Michael Portillo!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Although in Dover, for some reason I was watching the BBC North West local news and caught part of a piece about the line.

I'm sure it'll be on the BBC website somewhere.

Includes Michael Portillo!

Is this the one where steam trains were mentioned in the TV programme?

 

[snowball]

Probably about this:

New Preserved Railway in NW?