Disabled Passengers and TOCs - Rights and Responsibilities

[Clansman]

Thought I'd start this thread as an overview discussion on the various threads regarding situations where a person with a disability encounters conflict on an issue on the railway.

We've had a paralympian who was forced to wet herself due to the lack of operational toilet facilities. We've had somebody with Dwarfism complain that they are unable to board their train prior to departure due to the positioning of door operation buttons.

I was wondering where the line should be drawn in terms of rights and responsibilities of TOCs and passengers with disabilities. For example;

Do people with disabilities have the right to a toilet at all times on any train?
Do TOCs have the responsibility to provide that?

Plus other examples.

It's a long-standing problem in the railway where disability provisions aren't necessarily provided on all trains, and it's only a matter of time before another situation is exaggerated in the media and someone else with disabilities in exploited in order to make a point to the train company.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Do people with disabilities have the right to a toilet at all times on any train?

Crossrail, the London Underground and other metro operations quite clearly demonstrate that the answer to that is "No". That's provided no-one else has toilet facilities. If you had a disability or condition that required frequent access to such facilities, the replacement of existing trains out of Paddington by Crossrail would be a retrograde step.

 

[najaB]

Do people with disabilities have the right to a toilet at all times on any train?
Do TOCs have the responsibility to provide that?

They have the right to equal access as able-bodied people.

 

[Clansman]

Crossrail, the London Underground and other metro operations quite clearly demonstrate that the answer to that is "No". That's provided no-one else has toilet facilities. If you had a disability or condition that required frequent access to such facilities, the replacement of existing trains out of Paddington by Crossrail would be a retrograde step.

I understand this. I was using it to highlight the numerous issues which crop up now and again on threads which highlight a certain incident regarding people with disabilities on the railway. Although I agree with your comment about Crossrail in the sense that it's a retrograde step.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

They have the right to equal access as able-bodied people.

Totally agree

 

[PHILIPE]

Southern are not exactly covering themselves in glory at the moment. Say people should book assistance in advance.

 

[AlterEgo]

Southern are not exactly covering themselves in glory at the moment. Say people should book assistance in advance.

I think all TOCs recommend this. And in fact most transport providers of other modes too.

 

[Dave1987]

I think all TOCs recommend this. And in fact most transport providers of other modes too.

Buses don't, taxis there will usually be a wheelchair suitable one on the rank.

 

[a_c_skinner]

I accept any decent country will protect people with different abilities and make catering for them legally required. However is the requirement in UK absolute or does it go no further than making reasonable adaptations?

Andrew

 

[lejog]

Southern are not exactly covering themselves in glory at the moment. Say people should book assistance in advance.

Indeed that's industry wide, http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations_destinations/disabled_passengers.aspx

We will always do our best to help disabled passengers that need assistance, but if you need help when travelling by rail, it is best to book assistance in advance so that we can ensure that any help you may need is provided.

In particular, we would recommend that you book assistance if you:
• Have a mobility or other disability that means you find getting on and off trains difficult;
• Are a wheelchair user (on most services you will need to use a boarding ramp and, on some services reserve a wheelchair space on the train service you wish to use);
• Are a mobility scooter user (there are restrictions on different train operators which need to be checked, a boarding ramp will be required and possibly a reservation for the space onboard).
• Have a sight impairment and need guiding around a station or help boarding and alighting from your train;
• Have difficulty walking long distances – at some stations we can provide a station wheelchair or, at some larger stations, access to an electric buggy.

We recommend that you book help 24 hours before you travel. This enables us to: give you as much information as possible before your travel; make alternative arrangements for you if the station is not step free or not staffed at the time you wish to travel; and ensure that there are enough staff for all the assistance requests at a station. Overall, this allows us to provide you with the best possible assistance on the day

 

[Qwerty133]

Buses don't, taxis there will usually be a wheelchair suitable one on the rank.

Bus stops and taxi ranks are much smaller than train stations and unlike on the railway the driver of such vehicles is able to provide the assistance themselves...

 

[Busaholic]

Bus stops and taxi ranks are much smaller than train stations and unlike on the railway the driver of such vehicles is able to provide the assistance themselves...

Many bus companies don't allow drivers to leave their cabs other than in an emergency.

 

[AlterEgo]

I accept any decent country will protect people with different abilities and make catering for them legally required. However is the requirement in UK absolute or does it go no further than making reasonable adaptations?

Andrew

Reasonable adaptations only.

Is there any country in the world with an "absolute" right in law? Think about it. How would someone in an iron lung travel by train?

 

[Tio Terry]

There are Technical Standards for Interoperability which cover the provisions for Persons with Reduced Mobility (PRM TSI). These cover provision at stations and on trains.

The DfT have provided a code of practice for stations which can be found here:-

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...5977/design-standards-accessible-stations.pdf

 

[hounddog]

Bus stops and taxi ranks are much smaller than train stations and unlike on the railway the driver of such vehicles is able to provide the assistance themselves...

There's nothing physically stopping a train driver helping; just TOC policies which could be changed.

 

[AlterEgo]

Buses don't, taxis there will usually be a wheelchair suitable one on the rank.

Taxis don't have a turn up and go service for wheelchair customers. "Usually" is not a turn up and go service.

All airlines and ferry operators I can think of ask for advance notification of mobility issues.

 

[Dave1987]

Taxis don't have a turn up and go service for wheelchair customers. "Usually" is not a turn up and go service.

All airlines and ferry operators I can think of ask for advance notification of mobility issues.

Airlines and ferry operators virtually all require prior booking for all passengers whether able bodied or not.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Airlines and ferry operators virtually all require prior booking for all passengers whether able bodied or not.

No, they don't. You can show up at an airport or seaport and buy a ticket for the next sailing or flight. It'll cost you, but you can.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Dave1987]

No, they don't. You can show up at an airport or seaport and buy a ticket for the next sailing or flight. It'll cost you, but you can.

Er that is if there is space on the flight or the ferry!! There isn't the turn up and travel mentality that the railways have for able bodied people.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Er that is if there is space on the flight or the ferry!! There isn't the turn up and travel mentality that the railways have for able bodied people.

Indeed, but that doesn't make it a requirement as you stated.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[NSEFAN]

Reasonable adaptations only.

Is there any country in the world with an "absolute" right in law? Think about it. How would someone in an iron lung travel by train?

What does the law say where services are made less accessible for disabled passengers than they were previously? This would be the case where guarded routes are switched to DOO, and there's no guarantee of a second person on board. Just because passengers from say, Clock House on the Hayes line have to book in advance, does this mean that passengers on the west and east coastway routes should expect the same, even though they've been able to turn up and go until now?

 

[AlterEgo]

What does the law say where services are made less accessible for disabled passengers than they were previously? This would be the case where guarded routes are switched to DOO, and there's no guarantee of a second person on board. Just because passengers from say, Clock House on the Hayes line have to book in advance, does this mean that passengers on the west and east coastway routes should expect the same, even though they've been able to turn up and go until now?

It states nothing.

The law states only that reasonable adjustments must be made.

 

[NSEFAN]

It states nothing.

The law states only that reasonable adjustments must be made.

I wonder in that case if we will see a test case brought as a result, as we've seen about wheelchair spaces on buses. Personally I don't think it's reasonable to ask a group of passengers, who can currently turn up and go, to have to book 24 hours in advance. It looks to me like a backwards step in accessibility.

 

[AlterEgo]

I wonder in that case if we will see a test case brought as a result, as we've seen about wheelchair spaces on buses. Personally I don't think it's reasonable to ask a group of passengers, who can currently turn up and go, to have to book 24 hours in advance. It looks to me like a backwards step in accessibility.

I'm actually surprised that none of the major disability charities have launched a test case yet.

 

[Bayum]

Many bus companies don't allow drivers to leave their cabs other than in an emergency.

For what it's worth, the bus companies around me allow drivers to leave the cab to drop the ramp for wheelchairs to board.

 

[sarahj]

The issue down here is that disabled folks had a turn up and go service and now they don't, and even booking in advance is no guarantee they will be able to travel. I've been letting the regulars know to look out for the 313's in the timetable to still maintain a turn up and go service along the coast and if they travel wisely, they still can. I just do 313's* now and have been putting folks on and off with a ramp all week, no problems.

(*and the odd 442)

 

[route:oxford]

Taxis don't have a turn up and go service for wheelchair customers. "Usually" is not a turn up and go service.

Can you provide a list of local authorities that licence Hackney Carriages that aren't wheelchair compliant?

 

[dviner]

Can you provide a list of local authorities that licence Hackney Carriages that aren't wheelchair compliant?

At a guess - most of them. I believe (but am willing to be convinced otherwise by evidence to the contrary) that a vehicle licensed as a Hackney Carriage within the London Metropolitan area after a particular date (I'm thinking black cabs here) need to be wheelchair compliant. However, outside of the metropolitan areas, the majority of vehicles licensed by Local Authorities for use as a Hackney Carriage will be run-of-the mill passenger vehicles, so would be wheelchair compliant as an exception rather than the rule.

However, it is possible that new vehicles being licensed as Hackney Carriages (as opposed to existing vehicles having their licenses renewed) may be required to be wheelchair compliant - Windsor and Maidenhead certainly do - but this may vary on a authority-to-authority basis.

 

[AlterEgo]

Can you provide a list of local authorities that licence Hackney Carriages that aren't wheelchair compliant?

Do you mean that, by default, the hackney carriage has to be capable of transporting a wheelchair-bound customer?

Are all hackney carriages currently accessible in this way?

 

[brompton rail]

Do you mean that, by default, the hackney carriage has to be capable of transporting a wheelchair-bound customer?

Are all hackney carriages currently accessible in this way?

They are in Doncaster Council area, as far as I am aware. All Hackney Carriages have to be London type cabs or the similar van conversions which have enough space inside for wheelchair user to remain in their chair, and all carry ramps in the boot. None the less, you rarely see wheelchairs in Taxis, or indeed in buses.

My Local bus route passes the Hospital and so occasionally you will see someone in a wheelchair. Drivers get out of cab to drop platform ramp and return it without complaints, and I have never witnessed pushchair users be anything but helpful.

Powered "buggies" are a different matter. Only approved (by bus companies) types are allowed with appropriate permit. Most such vehicles are too heavy for the entrance ramp's weight restriction and don't have the small turning circle to turn around when on the bus. Similarly Northern will not permit them on trains, unless said buggy can be folded and carried on board. There are such small "buggies" but their power and range is limited and they aren't liked by users!