stopped with fake stansted express ticket

[franciuipapi]

hi all,

on friday i was travelling to stansted airport and while goign to the ticket machine in tottenham hale station to purchase my ticket i got stopped by two eastern european guys that asked me if i could do them a favour and get one of their tickets as their friend was not coming anymore and they had a spare one. I know it sounds stupid to you and i have just realized what i was getting into but i come from Italy and this type of things are quite normal there so it didn't cross my mind that buying a valid ticket from someone else could be an offence. Anyway, when i got off the train i got stopped by an inspector at stansted airport. He stated that the ticket was fake and asked me where i got it. I gave him all my details and he filed an unreadable report on a little notebook stating the situation. Not aware of the gravity of the situation, i offered to pay the ticket again or any fine involved in not travelling with a valid ticket, which he refused. After taking my details he asked if it was ok to ask some questions. I told him from which station i started my trip but nothing else as it was late and was missing my flight. He said i was free to go and when i asked him if it made any difference to answer the questions now or when contacted he said "up to you", which i interpreted as no difference. He made me sign the report which apparently had just my personal details and the station i was travelling from (again, unreadable). I understand i broke the law by buying a ticket not from the official sources but i genuinely did not know that the ticket was fake and i would never risk all this for a 10 pounds ticket, besides not knowing that it is a n offence to use someone else's ticket as there is no name on it (i don't use the train much but i have few stansted express receipts from the past that shows that i bought regular tickets). I am in my late thirties and never had any problem whatsover with the law and i am now trying to figure out what would the best course of action be. I would like to contact Greater Anglia to offer to settle this before receiving a letter from them. Do you think i need to seek legal advise of would it be good enough to send a letter explainig what i said above? What would be the best way to contact them (cannot seem to find any email on their site).
Any suggestion will be massively appreciated.

thanks

 

[319321]

If this was in the last thirty days and you are telling the truth about being approached at Tottenham Hale station near the ticket machines, I would strongly reccommend that you do the following:
1) Write to Greater Anglia requesting CCTV footage of the incident, so you can show what happenned later on if necessary;
2) Call up the British Transport Police and report the Eastern Europeans for fraud.

It is highly likely that the evidence you can offer in regards to these people is of far greater value than any out-of-court settlement you can offer.

It sounds like that barrier staff MAY have been in on the scam too, and this needs investigating as to whether or not they actually were.

 

[cuccir]

I'm afraid that the news for you is bad on this one.

It is quite possible that Greater Anglia may consider this as a more serious case than straight forward fare evasion. They will almost definitely investigate this to see if they can bring a case of fraud. One thing that they will look to establish is if the story about an Eastern European gang is true, or if you faked the ticket yourself. Even if your story is true, both buying a ticket from someone outside the railway and that ticket being fake may make you liable for prosecution under the 2006 Fraud Act.

To be honest, this falls outside of the usual experience of most of the people who reply to these forums, who are more used to straight forward fare evasion. I will highlight your post to some of our more experienced posters via a direct message.

I would suggest waiting for contact from Greater Anglia, as they are likely to want to investigate this closely and so are unlikely to settle quickly over the phone. DO NOT EMAIL/WRITE TO THEM WITHOUT LEGAL ADVICE!! There is an outside chance that they'll take the easy route and investigate this as a straight-forward attempt to avoid a fare, but that seems less likely to me. When they do contact you, you may want to get legal advice on your response - though there will be a cost to this, it is likely to be financially worth your while if this does lead to more serious charges.

 

[franciuipapi]

I'm afraid that the news for you is bad on this one.

It is quite possible that Greater Anglia may consider this as a more serious case than straight forward fare evasion. They will almost definitely investigate this to see if they can bring a case of fraud. One thing that they will look to establish is if the story about an Eastern European gang is true, or if you faked the ticket yourself. Even if your story is true, both buying a ticket from someone outside the railway and that ticket being fake may make you liable for prosecution under the 2006 Fraud Act.

To be honest, this falls outside of the usual experience of most of the people who reply to these forums, who are more used to straight forward fare evasion. I will highlight your post to some of our more experienced posters via a direct message.

I would suggest waiting for contact from Greater Anglia, as they are likely to want to investigate this closely and so are unlikely to settle quickly over the phone. DO NOT EMAIL/WRITE TO THEM WITHOUT LEGAL ADVICE!! There is an outside chance that they'll take the easy route and investigate this as a straight-forward attempt to avoid a fare, but that seems less likely to me. When they do contact you, you may want to get legal advice on your response - though there will be a cost to this, it is likely to be financially worth your while if this does lead to more serious charges.

thanks for your reply. I can believe that something so small can turn into this type of mess. I think you are right about them not going the easy way, especially because the inspector didn't write in the report the whole story (i didn't answer the questions as i had to leave....i definitely would if he told me it was worth it and that it made a difference). If i understood correctly, you are suggesting to wait for their move to see what they want to do first and then answer accordingly, rather than providing with information straight away. Out of curiosity, if they go the hard way, how are they going to check if i faked the ticket myself or not? In any case, what are the likely scenarios for me on this one,best to worst? Trying to get an idea as the cost of the ticket is minimal and i haven't had any other issue like this one before.

thanks

 

[northwichcat]

One issue you may be unaware of is tickets are only valid if they are used by the person who they were initially bought for. A friend can go to the ticket office and buy two tickets (one for you and one for them) but they can't then sell on a ticket to a random stranger if you say that you no longer want to catch the train. As tickets don't have names on them most of the time it would be impossible to spot if an unused ticket has been sold on but in saying you bought the ticket off another person, not from a machine or ticket office you admitted to an offence.

Given you say it was a fake ticket it makes it an even more complex scenario.

 

[franciuipapi]

thanks a lot for your reply. I agree with what you say. Seems strange that not knowing that the ticket is fake doesn't count at all, but i see the point. My main concern is that i have no way of proving my story, as i paid cash. When you say they are they going to investigate, do you mean before writing to me or after my reply? also, out of curiosity, how can they check that i haven't faked the ticket myself?
I guess i'll just sit down and wait then. How long does it normally take for them to write?
What kind of scenarios am i looking to, best to worst? My main concern is really keeping a clean criminal record, not too concerned about the money. Even though i did it in good faith it was a stupid thing to do and i am happy to pay if i have to, but getting sued for fraud for a 10 pounds ticket seems a bit extreme to me...

Yes i was completely unaware of that, as the ticket doesn't have a name on it so thought it could be sold as per any other type of ticket (cinema, football, etc ). From what i'm reading around it looks like it would almost be better if i did forged the ticket myself just to avoid paying the ticket fare, which seems strange. As per a lawyer, could you recommend a place to look for them? do i need a specific type of lawyer? i live in east london. Many many thanks for your help

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Make a careful note of the exact time and date of the event to keep for when they contact you. It might be possible for the train company to review CCTV and see the people whom you mentioned. They might be known to the railway company or the police for selling fake tickets.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Isn't CCTV only retained for a short time before being recorded over if no reports are made which require the footage to be kept?

So there may only be a short time in which to secure that footage for evidence.

 

[najaB]

Any suggestion will be massively appreciated.

The first and most important suggestion is this: stay calm. This is a bad situation, but acting without thinking could make it worse.

As others have posted (and you've figured out) it is a breach of the rules to buy a ticket from someone who isn't an authorised seller. And it's also illegal to use a fake ticket. So there's no way to avoid the fact that you are in hot water.

What does work in your favour is that, assuming post accurately reflects the facts, you were the victim of a con. And it's a fair bet that you aren't the only one - it doesn't make sense to me that people would go to the expense of making pretty good forgeries to gross £10 income.

So, it's entirely possible that AGA will be willing to put aside the charges if you can help them to track down the guys who sold you the ticket.

It might be worth reporting the fact that you were conned on railway premises to the BTP as it's possible they might want to open an investigation (if they don't have one open already).

 

[AlterEgo]

It might be worth reporting the fact that you were conned on railway premises to the BTP as it's possible they might want to open an investigation (if they don't have one open already).

I'm not sure it's wise to approach the police to report this, as the OP would be incriminating himself by admitting to purchasing a ticket from a tout or forger.

It would be like someone turning up to a drugs deal, handing over £50, discovering they got sold some sherbet, and then complaining of fraud.

 

[philthetube]

Reporting this to BPT however may influence the way Greater Anglia act and make them more likely to believe you.

 

[Haywain]

i have just realized what i was getting into but i come from Italy and this type of things are quite normal there so it didn't cross my mind that buying a valid ticket from someone else could be an offence.

Obviously, you have been duped into buying a fake ticket. However, I would just point out that even if this sort of thing is "quite normal" in Italy, it is likely that whether in the UK or Italy you are funding criminals. Even if they are passing genuine tickets it is likely that they may be bought with stolen credit cards, and you are assisting them in getting 'clean' money at no expense to themselves.

As for the situation in which you now find yourself, I would hope that someone with experience in such matters can provide further advice but would just say that if CCTV is really going to help, then an application for the images to be retained will need to be made sooner rather than later. In most areas CCTV images will be retained for around 28 days, but not necessarily any longer.

 

[najaB]

I'm not sure it's wise to approach the police to report this, as the OP would be incriminating himself by admitting to purchasing a ticket from a tout or forger.

Let's assume that the ticket the OP was using is fake. That means one of two things: they made it and knew it was fake (fraud), or they bought it and did not (Byelaw offence)*.

Which is the worse position to be in?

*Edit: I suppose they could have bought it knowing it was a fake, but we'll discount that possibility for now.

 

[cuccir]

thanks a lot for your reply. I agree with what you say. Seems strange that not knowing that the ticket is fake doesn't count at all, but i see the point. My main concern is that i have no way of proving my story, as i paid cash. When you say they are they going to investigate, do you mean before writing to me or after my reply? also, out of curiosity, how can they check that i haven't faked the ticket myself?
I guess i'll just sit down and wait then. How long does it normally take for them to write?
What kind of scenarios am i looking to, best to worst? My main concern is really keeping a clean criminal record, not too concerned about the money. Even though i did it in good faith it was a stupid thing to do and i am happy to pay if i have to, but getting sued for fraud for a 10 pounds ticket seems a bit extreme to me...

From what i'm reading around it looks like it would almost be better if i did forged the ticket myself just to avoid paying the ticket fare, which seems strange.

Remember that they would have to prove that you did fake the ticket, not the other way round. So if you're telling the truth, then you shouldn't be concerned about that. I can assure you that if you had faked the ticket yourself, then the situation would be much worse.

In and of itself, using a ticket purchased by someone else is not that severe a crime. However, buying a ticket from someone selling it outside a station is a lot dodgier than, say, paying a friend for an unused ticket, and the law expects purchasers to take reasonable steps to consider if what they are doing is illegal.

I'd hold off to see how they progress with this, which could be anything up to 6-8 weeks. It may be that they consider this as a simple error, or it may be that they go down the much stricter route.

 

[franciuipapi]

Let's assume that the ticket the OP was using is fake. That means one of two things: they made it and knew it was fake (fraud), or they bought it and did not (Byelaw offence)*.

Which is the worse position to be in?

*Edit: I suppose they could have bought it knowing it was a fake, but we'll discount that possibility for now.

thanks for your reply. That is exactly what i was trying to figure out myself. Feels to me that forging a ticket and use it is a worse scenario than getting conned without your knowledge, even if for something illegal. In case someone is in a similar situation, I've spoken to three different solicitors and they all told me the same: "wait for them to write, see what they say and then you can reply.". Seems like the difference is between paying just an off-court settlement of about 400-500 pounds or getting dragged to court and prosecuted with a minor conviction + the fine.

 

[franciuipapi]

Remember that they would have to prove that you did fake the ticket, not the other way round. So if you're telling the truth, then you shouldn't be concerned about that. I can assure you that if you had faked the ticket yourself, then the situation would be much worse.

In and of itself, using a ticket purchased by someone else is not that severe a crime. However, buying a ticket from someone selling it outside a station is a lot dodgier than, say, paying a friend for an unused ticket, and the law expects purchasers to take reasonable steps to consider if what they are doing is illegal.

I'd hold off to see how they progress with this, which could be anything up to 6-8 weeks. It may be that they consider this as a simple error, or it may be that they go down the much stricter route.

it's probably going to be the stricter route as the inspector didn't write down my story so the only piece of information they have at the moment is me having a fake ticket. anyway, thanks for help and keep you guys posted, might help someone else.

 

[Pinza-C55]

If this was in the last thirty days and you are telling the truth about being approached at Tottenham Hale station near the ticket machines, I would strongly reccommend that you do the following:
1) Write to Greater Anglia requesting CCTV footage of the incident, so you can show what happenned later on if necessary;
2) Call up the British Transport Police and report the Eastern Europeans for fraud.

It is highly likely that the evidence you can offer in regards to these people is of far greater value than any out-of-court settlement you can offer.

It sounds like that barrier staff MAY have been in on the scam too, and this needs investigating as to whether or not they actually were.

If the OP was flying he may have had luggage and been let through the side gate. The ticket may have looked OK from the front but had no magnetic strip on the back.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

I'm not sure it's wise to approach the police to report this, as the OP would be incriminating himself by admitting to purchasing a ticket from a tout or forger.

It would be like someone turning up to a drugs deal, handing over £50, discovering they got sold some sherbet, and then complaining of fraud.

Given that they were caught with a fake ticket, if they don't admit to buying it from someone, it suggests they made it.

I think contacting the police might be a good thing to do, they might be able to access CCTV more readily and if the suspects are known, it will seriously help your case.

 

[jon0844]

I'm not sure it's wise to approach the police to report this, as the OP would be incriminating himself by admitting to purchasing a ticket from a tout or forger.

It would be like someone turning up to a drugs deal, handing over £50, discovering they got sold some sherbet, and then complaining of fraud.

Buying drugs isn't usually legal. Buying a train ticket, in good faith, isn't illegal. It may be a byelaw offence, but I am sure the key intention is to stop a used ticket being sold on.

If there was an honest belief that a genuine ticket was being bought from someone who no longer needed to travel (and hadn't used the ticket) then I doubt there's much chance of incrimination by reporting to the police.

Indeed, it would seem more genuine if I'd realised I'd been conned and now wanted to help the police (and rail industry) track down the sellers of fake tickets.

Yes it could be a bluff. Yes the OP could have known exactly what he was buying, but we have to take things at face value.

 

[AlterEgo]

Buying drugs isn't usually legal. Buying a train ticket, in good faith, isn't illegal. It may be a byelaw offence, but I am sure the key intention is to stop a used ticket being sold on.

If there was an honest belief that a genuine ticket was being bought from someone who no longer needed to travel (and hadn't used the ticket) then I doubt there's much chance of incrimination by reporting to the police.

Indeed, it would seem more genuine if I'd realised I'd been conned and now wanted to help the police (and rail industry) track down the sellers of fake tickets.

Yes it could be a bluff. Yes the OP could have known exactly what he was buying, but we have to take things at face value.

Agreed, but buying a ticket off a tout is illegal no matter how it's dressed up. I just don't think it is wise to go to the police and admit a crime unnecessarily.

I would wait for GA's correspondence.

 

[JaJaWa]

Was it an orange credit-card sized ticket, or an A4 self-print style ticket? Do you have a photo of it? I wonder if they are aware it was simply resold and wasn't actually fake?

 

[franciuipapi]

it was an A4 with the correct dates but when they scanned it the barcode showed that the ticket was from 2014. They caught it straight away because Ga stopped doing paper tickets from January, or so the inspector told me. It's basically something that works only if the person that checks is lazy and doesn't scan it,i guess.

 

[Fare-Cop]

If this was in the last thirty days and you are telling the truth about being approached at Tottenham Hale station near the ticket machines, I would strongly reccommend that you do the following:
1) Write to Greater Anglia requesting CCTV footage of the incident, so you can show what happenned later on if necessary;

It is highly likely that any CCTV footage that might exist will provide anything of evidential quality that could help, but there is nothing to stop the OP for asking for it to be viewed just in case and yes, this would need to be done within 30 days normally as footage is not stored indefinitely.

2) Call up the British Transport Police and report the Eastern Europeans for fraud.

Fine at first thought, but exactly who will the OP be reporting for fraud and what evidence can be shown. From the OP's post so far; "Two men who I think were East European sold me a dud ticket" isn't going to be enough for anyone to go forward with an investigation.

2)It is highly likely that the evidence you can offer in regards to these people is of far greater value than any out-of-court settlement you can offer.

Only if there really is useful footage depicting known individuals, which seems exceedingly unlikely

2)It sounds like that barrier staff MAY have been in on the scam too, and this needs investigating as to whether or not they actually were.

The OP's posting does not provide any evidence for this assumption.

It seems that the OP was detected using a faked ticket for travel and by own admission, claims to have purchased that ticket from an unauthorised source.

I think that the OP really does need to wait and see what (if any letter) is received from the TOC.

 

[najaB]

From what i'm reading around it looks like it would almost be better if i did forged the ticket myself just to avoid paying the ticket fare, which seems strange.

Don't read too much into any side discussions that we have, it's just us trying to figure things out between ourselves. For the avoidance of doubt: you definitely would be in more trouble if you had faked the ticket yourself.

I don't know how similar or different the Italian legal system is, so I'll explain what we've been talking about - apologies if you know this already.

Now using a fake ticket and buying a ticket from an unauthorised person are both Byelaw offences. This means that they are, technically, illegal but the penalty for breaking them is, at worst, a fine. They don't carry a criminal record.

Making fake tickets however can be prosecuted as fraud which is much more serious. A fraud conviction can land you with a fine (or even prison time in extreme cases) as well as a criminal record.

So, if Abellio Greater Anglia (AGA) are sure that the ticket was fake it's very important that you make sure that AGA knows that you aren't the forger. That's why I suggested making a complaint to the BTP. By making that complaint (and soon!) BTP will be able to pull any CCTV that shows the guys who sold you the ticket (CCTV is typically erased after 7 to 14 days). It also means that you will have a crime reference number (or similar) to hand when you deal with AGA.

While it's no guarantee that you'll be able to get off without any penalty at all, it's much more likely that AGA will look favourably on your case if you can show that you're trying to catch the real criminals.

As per a lawyer, could you recommend a place to look for them? do i need a specific type of lawyer? i live in east london. Many many thanks for your help

I would hold off on instructing a lawyer until you know exactly what you are dealing with. They have been known to charge hundreds of pounds for writing a letter that you could draft yourself.

 

[najaB]

Fine at first thought, but exactly who will the OP be reporting for fraud and what evidence can be shown. From the OP's post so far; "Two men who I think were East European sold me a dud ticket" isn't going to be enough for anyone to go forward with an investigation.

It's entirely possible that franciuipapi isn't the only person who has been caught out.

 

[185]

I'm not sure it's wise to approach the police to report this, as the OP would be incriminating himself by admitting to purchasing a ticket from a tout or forger.

This is an interesting one, which I've heard more similar ones of recently, albeit with ordinary tickets. Think it certainly would be sensible to approach BTP to report the incident, whilst notifying, and cooperating with the train company.

 

[gray1404]

If the OP does report the matter from the Police, they need to take the stance that they believe they themselves have been the victim of a scam and that they had no idea whatsoever that buying a ticket in this was is not allowed.

 

[bb21]

If the OP does report the matter from the Police, they need to take the stance that they believe they themselves have been the victim of a scam and that they had no idea whatsoever that buying a ticket in this was is not allowed.

If the OP did approach BTP, he needs to be entirely truthful with them, whatever the reality was.

It is no good pretending he knew nothing if the truth was that he did know something. Likewise if he did indeed know nothing, he need to fear nothing but simply be honest with them.

 

[jon0844]

If the OP did approach BTP, he needs to be entirely truthful with them, whatever the reality was.

It is no good pretending he knew nothing if the truth was that he did know something. Likewise if he did indeed know nothing, he need to fear nothing but simply be honest with them.

Exactly. The police will want to know (BTP especially) because we're always told how this sort of crime funds nastier things.

Thus, not going to the police means these people are free to rip off others. Some of whom may suspect a ticket is dodgy but buy anyway, and those who are ignorant - which I expect includes tourists.

 

[island]

Buying drugs isn't usually legal. Buying a train ticket, in good faith, isn't illegal.

Except it is (section 21 (1), Railway Byelaws 2005).

To those suggesting CCTV will help, it won't. If anything it will strengthen the case against the OP by showing a ticket being bought otherwise than from a booking office or TVM.